Energy from electron spin

[e2matrix]

I doubt anyone was holding their breath for this test but as promised I'd try the two spherical magnets again on full Moon and they failed to go up as they did the first time when it was near full Moon.  I tend to think that these hematite magnets have simply lost some magnetism over the course of testing this.   First couple tries they did go right up nicely which I think relates to the spin direction that gets some traction on the upper side so they go up when spinning that way. I don't have any spherical neo magnets though to test this with.   Did anyone else try with neo's?

[JimBoot]

This is the paper mentioned by Robert Holcomb in one of his vids discussing electron spin. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334153308_Magnetic_resonance_imaging_of_single_atoms_on_a_surface

[Chet K]

Electron spin ...?( spintronics..
Version 2.0 ,I believe the first version was for storing data ?

The newest version is for ....
Everything electron ??   At "super speeds" and unheard of efficiency?

Here Sabine talks about it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1_37hEtx5o

Respectfully submitted
Chet K

[Smudge]

If you ask AI this question "Can a static magnetic field apply a force to a stationary electron" you will get the answer "NO".  You will then get sidetracked towards time varying magnetic fields or moving electrons, where force does occurr.  Why does AI give the wrong answer?  Why does it ignore the electron's magnetic dipole of value the Bohr magneton?  I have a number of books on electromagnetics and none of them deal with force on a magnetic dipole within a static non-uniform magnetic field.  I have to look into atomic physics and the Stern-Gerlach effect to find the formula.  There a beam of electrons exhibits beam splitting, so the electrons certainly are not stationary.  But the formula for the magnetic field applying force to the electrons to split the beam is independant of the electron velocity, and applies equally to stationary electrons.  My books are from the 1960's 1970's and I don't know whether modern electromagnetic text books deal with this subject, but the fact that AI doesn't find the answer suggest to me this ignorance is still prevalent.  Also that there have been few experiments employing this little known effect.  Since permanent magnets are a readily available means for creating non-uniform static magnetic fields this ignorance also explains the lack of experiments in the free energy movement.

This bench got sidetracked into experiments with spherical magnets, so perhaps now is the time to get back to the basics.  Permanent magnets will apply a force to a free electron.  Place a length of iron wire along the axis of a rod magnet, and the initerent electons in the wire will be drawn towards the magnet, thus electrically polarizing the wire with an excess of electrons at one end (close to the magnet) and a deficit at the other end.  Thus it should be possible to measure a voltage acoss the wire in the microvolts range, perhaps tens of microvolts.  Simple!!  An everlasting battery.  OK, microvolts are not much use, but if this is something that has never been done before it is just a start.

Smudge 

[Magluvin]

If you ask AI this question "Can a static magnetic field apply a force to a stationary electron" you will get the answer "NO".  You will then get sidetracked towards time varying
This bench got sidetracked into experiments with spherical magnets, so perhaps now is the time to get back to the basics.  Permanent magnets will apply a force to a free electron.  Place a length of iron wire along the axis of a rod magnet, and the initerent electons in the wire will be drawn towards the magnet, thus electrically polarizing the wire with an excess of electrons at one end (close to the magnet) and a deficit at the other end.  Thus it should be possible to measure a voltage acoss the wire in the microvolts range, perhaps tens of microvolts.  Simple!!  An everlasting battery.  OK, microvolts are not much use, but if this is something that has never been done before it is just a start.

Smudge

nice idea.   but if the magnet pulls free electrons to one end of the iron wire, would it allow any of them to flow into the meter in order to read the charge?

mags

[Magluvin]

since you brought it up...

would it be that one pole of the magnet can attract the electrons and the other pole repel them?  like a yoke in a crt. I haven't looked at the circuits for the yokes to have my own answer yet so i post it here. if one pole can repel the free electrons in the iron wire to the other end, maybe they would be more free to flow to the meter.  not sure how the electron flow through the leads from the meter would react to the magnet field on that end of the iron wire with the magnet in place. 

mags

[Magluvin]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cL7wZUll-X0
https://youtube.com/watch?v=RqSode4HZrE

Seems as though the experiment proposed with the magnet and iron wire will not work as described, as to the magnets affect on electrons.

mags

[Verpies]

These examples illustrate what happens when the charged particles are moving but the magnet is not.
Consider what happens when the magnet is moving but the charged particles are not.

[Magluvin]

These examples illustrate what happens when the charged particles are moving but the magnet is not.
Consider what happens when the magnet is moving but the charged particles are not.

i get that.  but if the electrons were to be attracted to a pole or repeled, we should see that in the examples.  it does neither.

so possibly, if the magnet were perpendicular to the iron wire, pole aiming at the side of the wire, would it force free electrons one way or the other in the iron wire?  just sayin.

mags

[Verpies]

Your reply does not imply any consideration of what happens when the magnet is moving but the charged particles are not.

i get that.  but if the electrons were to be attracted to a pole or repeled, we should see that in the examples.  it does neither.

I never claimed that they were attracted to a pole or repelled.

The magnetic Lorentz force requires relative motion between a charged particle and a magnet (or its field).
There are effects that demonstrate the influence of a magnetic field on charged atomic particles such as electrons and protons without relative motion between them, ...but they all involve spin.  See the Einstain-de Haas experiment and the Aharonov-Bohm effect.

so possibly, if the magnet were perpendicular to the iron wire, pole aiming at the side of the wire, would it force free electrons one way or the other in the iron wire?

That's called Hall effect but it involves the motion of electrons (or other charge carriers) relative to the magnet.
This effect also happens in an iron wire, but it is very small because electrons move very slowly in iron.  In other materials, where the electrons move faster, the Hall effect is more pronounced.

Interestingly the Hall effect can be self-squared, i.e. if the same current generates the magnetic field as the Hall current, then the moving charged particles are always deflected in the same direction.  This make diode-less rectification possible (AC to DC without diodes or switches).

[Smudge]

nice idea.   but if the magnet pulls free electrons to one end of the iron wire, would it allow any of them to flow into the meter in order to read the charge?

mags

That is the question to be answered by the experiment.  Electrons passing into the copper connecting wires lose their spin-polarization so the magnetic field no longer affects them.  There are two back-to-back Fe-Cu thermocouples in the circuit but they are at the same temperature so there should be no effect there.  But the Seebeck effect is influenced by the presence of a magnetic field so that might create zero voltage around the closed loop.

[Smudge]

since you brought it up...

would it be that one pole of the magnet can attract the electrons and the other pole repel them?  like a yoke in a crt. I haven't looked at the circuits for the yokes to have my own answer yet so i post it here. if one pole can repel the free electrons in the iron wire to the other end, maybe they would be more free to flow to the meter.  not sure how the electron flow through the leads from the meter would react to the magnet field on that end of the iron wire with the magnet in place. 

mags

This pole attraction and pole repulsion concept is where people go wrong.  A small magnetic dipole (tiny bar magnet) close to one pole of a large magnet can either be attracted or repulsed, depending upon its orientation.  If you let the small magnet automatically align itself with the field it will always be attracted.  Electron spin-polarization is just the degree of that automatic aligment that occurs in an electron cloud.  So the other pole will also attract electrons.

[Smudge]

i get that.  but if the electrons were to be attracted to a pole or repeled, we should see that in the examples.  it does neither.

Since those videos show entirely different experiments why do you claim the effect would show up there.  It certainly would not.

so possibly, if the magnet were perpendicular to the iron wire, pole aiming at the side of the wire, would it force free electrons one way or the other in the iron wire?  just sayin.

You haven't grasped what is really happening because I did not spell it out.  A small magnetic dipole can be modelled as two opposite polarity (N and S) point poles but they are ficticious.  Current flowing round a single turn loop is a dipole but you can't determine point poles there.  To get the forces on that loop you have to look at each small current element and use Ampere's law to get the force at that point, and do this all around the loop.  This then gives you the linear force on the loop (attraction or repulsion from the source of the applied field) and the angular force trying to align the loop axis to the applied field.  For small dipoles (and the electron is quite small!) the linear force simplifies to F_x=µ⋅cos(θ)⋅dB_x/dx (and similarly for the other coordinates) where µ is the dipole moment and θ is the angle between the dipole axis and the applied B_x field.  In your suggested arrangement the electrons would be attracted to the wire position closest to the magnet pole, that point would be at a negative potential.

The whole point of my post was that AI with its knowledge of all history could not find evidence that this known law that applies to two permanant magnets (one large and one small) has been applied to a permanent magnet and spin-polarized electrons.  So it is worth investigatiing. 

[Smudge]

Perhaps this image illustrates the concept.

[Itsu]

Here my replication attempt with the equipment i got.

I measure some -4uV on this 1.5m long iron wire (garden binding wire) no matter what direction / pole i connect the magnets stack to the wire.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGyDMttnRBk

Itsu

[Verpies]

What if you stick the magnet to the other end of the iron wire ?

Also, are you ensuring lack of electric contact between the magnets and the circuit ?

Last, but not least, are you making sure that the magnet is not moving or vibrating ?  Human hand is incapable of holding a magnet without vibrations.  Any movement of the magnet will lead to Faraday's induction in that huge loop (its area should be minimized to minimize the pickup of the 50Hz powerline hum from the house's wiring, which is especially bad when heavy loads draw large currents). 

[Itsu]

If i stick the magnet to the other end of the iron wire, i get a similar valued positive reading, like +4uV.

It does not matter if i stick the magnet to the iron wire directly or via a few layers of insulation tape.

The magnet is sticking to the iron wire ends when both laying still on the floor, so no movement or vibrating should be present.

[Magluvin]

hey itsu

does the iron wire need to be that long?  maybe if it works with a short length, then make another one with its own magnet and see if you can double the output voltage.  if so then multiply more.

have you tried it with less magnets also?

mags

[Itsu]

Hi Mags,

thanks for the suggestions, i will do them later on. This thing acts like a (small) battery as it takes time to get back to the zero baseline (even after shorting the COPPER leads).

I also would like to await Smudge his comment if this is even close to what he had in mind.

[Smudge]

Here my replication attempt with the equipment i got.

I measure some -4uV on this 1.5m long iron wire (garden binding wire) no matter what direction / pole i connect the magnets stack to the wire.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGyDMttnRBk

Itsu

Thanks for doing that Itsu.  Also I am glad that DC amp Graham made for me is being used.  That amp gets you into the region where small temperature difference between the Fe-Croc-clip thermocouples produce a reading.  If you do your zeroing (that takes away drift in the amp) without the magnet present then touch one of the connections your body heat transfer will create a reading.  Perhaps that explains why your readings take time to settle down.  If you could arrange for the connections to be made without using your fingers that might prove this.

All your findings are in agreement with the fact that the presence of the magnet (a) magnetizes the Fe wire as expected and the field along the wire reduces with distance away from the magnet creating dB/dx needed, (b) that the conduction electrons become spin-polarised (align with that internal field) and (c) they get pulled towards the magnet by the dB/dx.  This is all predicted by known theory.  This may be the first demonstration of an almost everlasting battery, so well done!  I say almost because we know the magnet will run down over many years.  So what use is a battery that delivers maybe picowatts?  I think this could be a demonstration of energy extracted from the quantum domain, and by that I mean from that which keeps electrons spinning perpetually.  I am currently doing the math to hopefully show that the continuous supply of picowatts comes from that domain.

If you put another magnet at the other end of the Fe wire with its opposite pole close, then both ends will be negative with the centre of the wire positive.  Perhaps you could try that.

If others could do the experiment that would consolidate this performance.  Then we need someone to come up with how this effect can be turned into something useful.  Creating an array of say 10⁶ nanosized versions gets the voltage up but doesn't get you anywhere because of the resistivity of the Fe.  If science could come up with a superconductor offering the spintronics of Fe then maybe we will get there.

Smudge

[Itsu]

Thanks for doing that Itsu.  Also I am glad that DC amp Graham made for me is being used.  That amp gets you into the region where small temperature difference between the Fe-Croc-clip thermocouples produce a reading.  If you do your zeroing (that takes away drift in the amp) without the magnet present then touch one of the connections your body heat transfer will create a reading.  Perhaps that explains why your readings take time to settle down.  If you could arrange for the connections to be made without using your fingers that might prove this.

My pleasure Smudge.
Any idea what the Din interface on the side of the box (see picture 1) is for?

When without any magnets close, in a stable situation and zeroing out, then touching the red wire connection side of the iron wire with my fingers, will show -10uV within 10s.
It takes 20 min. or so for the measured value returns to 0uV (heat dissipated again?.
Doing the same now with the black side connection of the iron wire, will show +10uV within 10s and taking another 20 min to return to 0.

If you put another magnet at the other end of the Fe wire with its opposite pole close, then both ends will be negative with the centre of the wire positive.  Perhaps you could try that.

Be aware that the values mentioned e.g. 4uV will NOT be the same all the time, meaning a next SAME measurement will show perhaps 2uV and another 6uV, but the trend is the same (positive).

I have split my stack of 10 magnets into 2 stacks of 5 magnets, each measuring 525mT.
Putting 1 stack with its N-pole at the red lead end of the iron wire it will measure -4uV after 1 min., when then attaching the other stack N-pole to the black lead end of the iron wire (1.6m long and 1.5mm diam. by the way) then the measured value will increase and reach 0uV after 10 min or so.
Now measuring with the black lead in the middle of the iron wire shows same value (0uV)

Swapping the black side stack from N-pole to S-pole will show 4uV both with the black wire at the end or in the middle of the iron wire.

So, putting the black wire in the middle of the iron wire seems to have no influence on the measurement.

[Itsu]

hey itsu

does the iron wire need to be that long?  maybe if it works with a short length, then make another one with its own magnet and see if you can double the output voltage.  if so then multiply more.

have you tried it with less magnets also?

mags

Mags,

I tried to use a shorter wire, but this is not working, as the values measured are too low for my used equipment to stand out.

I called the magnet a battery sometimes, which obviously is wrong 

So i should try with an even longer (or thicker?) wire to see better results.

Anyway, video of testing this shorter wire here:  https://youtu.be/I-hJ5PAr8yw


Itsu

[Verpies]

I tried to use a shorter wire, but this is not working, as the values measured are too low for my used equipment to stand out.

Maybe it is not about the wire length but about the area of the loop that it forms together with the test leads.

[Smudge]

Itsu,
Thanks for doing more experiments.  Going back to your first video you expected the voltage polarity to reverse when you reversed the magnet and were surprised when it remained at the same polarity.  Reversing the magnet also reverses the field direction in the wire, and that reverses the conduction electron dipoles, so the electrons always get attracted to the magnet.  The magnet end of the wire is always negative.  I was pleased that your results showed this effect to be real.  Your next experiments with magnets at each end of the wire

Putting 1 stack with its N-pole at the red lead end of the iron wire it will measure -4uV after 1 min

as expected

when then attaching the other stack N-pole to the black lead end of the iron wire (1.6m long and 1.5mm diam. by the way) then the measured value will increase and reach 0uV after 10 min or so

also as expected as that end should also be negative with respect to the middle of the wire where the fields cancel.

Now measuring with the black lead in the middle of the iron wire shows same value (0uV)

That I did not expect.  You should now get a negative reading but somewhat smaller than the -4uV above

Swapping the black side stack from N-pole to S-pole will show 4uV both with the black wire at the end or in the middle of the iron wire.

You say "will" show, but I assume you mean that was measured, in which case that is unexpected.  But I have to point out that the electrons are attracted along the wire by the value of the longitudinal B field and the rate of change of that field along the wire dB/dx at the position in the wire under consideration.  As you have found your measured values are sensitive to the surroundings; your wire is not straight so that deviation could affect those values somewhat, even more so when you have magnets at each end.

Your latest video with shorter wire is expected to show reduced values of negative voltage at the magnet end of the wire, and it does tend to show that.  I would suggest going back to the longer wire but try to do the experiment with the wire further away from other equipment on the bench or table (including beneath the table).  Maybe even having longer connecting wires to get the meter and amplifier further from the wire so your body movement or position has less effect.  I think you have demonstrated something real happens within the wire, something that has been neglected or not considered before, and I think it is worth pursuing this line of enquiry.

Smudge

[Smudge]

Maybe it is not about the wire length but about the area of the loop that it forms together with the test leads.

IMO that area will not affect the results, but that is easy to find out.  Measuring DC microvolts is difficult due to noise (the amplifier Itsu uses has a low pass filter to suppress noise effects) and DC drift.  But on the whole I think his results are tending to support the attraction of conduction electrons in Fe wire by having a magnet attached.  That attraction obeys known rules.  What has not been shown is the induced DC votage driving current so as to extract power into a load, so the jury is out as to whether this is an everlasting picowatt or microwatt battery.