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Author Topic: Energy from electron spin  (Read 54033 times)

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Thank you, I will give up on this line of enquiry as it doesn't lead anywhere.  Thanks again.

Smudge
   
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Thank you, I will give up on this line of enquiry as it doesn't lead anywhere.  Thanks again.

Smudge

Hello, esteemed senior Smudge!

The spatial scale of electron spin is relatively small. The thermal motion scale of free electrons is somewhat larger.

 Grok3:The approximate radius of the circular trajectory of an electron due to thermal motion at 273K in a 1T magnetic field is about 6.31 × 10^-7 meters or 631 nanometers.
 Grok3:In 30nm process semiconductor wafers, the thickness of the PN junction typically ranges from tens of nanometers to several hundred nanometers.
 Grok3:A magnetic field affects the thermal motion of free electrons through a PN junction by exerting a Lorentz force on the moving electrons. This force causes the electrons to move in a curved or circular path, depending on the orientation of their velocity relative to the magnetic field. This phenomenon can influence the transport properties of the electrons across the PN junction, potentially affecting the junction's electrical characteristics.

If study the thermal motion of free electrons passing through a PN junction, would it be more noticeable than observing it in a segment of wire?

I used a 20x15x10mm N52 magnet and moved it back and forth over the STM32F103C8T6 microcontroller, and it did not affect its program operation. :D :P :-[ :'(

I used a 10kV silicon diode, which has a forward voltage drop of about 7V, roughly containing 10 PN junctions. Six of them are connected in series, sandwiched between two N52 magnets. The load resistor is 10 kΩ. Measuring the voltage with a regular 4½-digit multimeter reads 0.000 mV. :-[ :( ;D
« Last Edit: 2026-02-04, 22:07:00 by panyuming »
   
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I also struggled with this Hall effect, which is never significant, even in silicon or germanium PN junctions (but is significant with tellurium, see below). But now I have the answer. The Hall voltage due to the Lorentz force should be much greater, but as soon as it tries to appear, the internal electrostatic force in the material immediately balances it out. You can't have a significant voltage across a good conductor without huge currents. That's why Hall effect measurements are made on conductors of very small thickness.

I would like to take this opportunity to talk about NHLE. The electronics industry has always worked wonders for us, and it is now on the verge of overcoming this difficulty in a way, thanks to giant non-linear Hall effects. In certain materials (Te), the current flowing through them produces enormous magnetic fields locally at the nano scale, thanks to what are called ‘Berry curvatures’. The Hall effect becomes a consequence of the magnetic field created by the same current flowing through the material. As B and I change sign at the same time, we have a rectifying effect, and this rectification has no threshold! This is what I have tried to do many times, but in vain, because at the macroscopic level and for common materials, the Hall effect remains insignificant.
So we will soon have threshold-free ‘diodes’  :). But I bet Murphy's Law will find us yet another new trick to prevent us from rectifying thermal noise...  :(
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-49706-y


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So we will soon have threshold-free ‘diodes’  :). But I bet Murphy's Law will find us yet another new trick to prevent us from rectifying thermal noise...  :(
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-49706-y

Zero theshold diodes have been around for a while. I was working on the technology around ten years ago and invented a few zero threshold devices only to find Linear Devices beat me to it with electrically-programmable thresholds (EPADs). They claimed voltage thresholds down to 0.002v.

A super easy method is to pre-bias the gate of a low resistance mosfet to near zero volts. Literally any line voltage can then tip the gate voltage over the zero threshold and act like a diode. Zero threshold tech is pretty much mandatory for efficient energy scavenging circuits which was what I was working with.

In fact, any solar cell or panel can produce some power even from starlight at night with zero threshold devices. I used a zero threshold blocking diode then a zero threshold boost converter for very low output voltages. So the cut in voltage is very near zero volts.


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Spin-dependent electrocatalysis with Gadolinium and external magnetic field.

In some experimental setups, an external constant magnetic field is applied to the electrolyzer.

The gadolinium ions in the catalyst structure align their spins under the influence of the external field. This creates a "spin filter" on the electrode surface.

Since the oxygen molecule in its stable state is a triplet (its electrons have parallel spins), a catalyst with ordered gadolinium spins "forces" the outgoing electrons to also have the desired orientation. This prevents the formation of byproducts (such as singlet oxygen or hydrogen peroxide) and accelerates the oxygen gas evolution reaction by tens of percent.

Spin activation in alkaline electrolysis to increase oxygen yield:

Nanostructured catalysts doped with gadolinium are used for low-temperature water splitting. As in high-temperature systems, the gadolinium's gigantic magnetic moment is critical here. When an external magnetic field of 0.1–0.5 T is applied to the electrolyzer, gadolinium ions on the electrode surface polarize the electron spins. This facilitates the transition of water molecules to the triplet state of molecular oxygen, reducing the reaction overpotential. Bimetallic nanoparticles with gadolinium exhibit ultra-low reaction onset potentials, comparable to platinum catalysts.

The problem of triplet oxygen in alkaline electrolysis:
In an alkaline medium, water molecules must be converted into molecular oxygen during electrolysis. The main difficulty is that the initial hydroxyl ions are in the singlet state (electron spins are paired/opposite). Molecular oxygen in the ground state is a triplet (two unpaired electrons with parallel spins). The transition from singlet to triplet is quantum forbidden or hindered, which creates a high "overpotential" (excessive energy consumption) at the anode.

Gadolinium has the highest magnetic moment among stable elements (seven unpaired electrons). Spin alignment occurs in the gadolinium catalyst structure, as gadolinium ions, under the influence of an external magnetic field (or due to internal magnetic ordering in the nanoparticles), create a powerful local field.
When an OH ion is adsorbed on the active site of the catalyst near gadolinium, the strong magnetic interaction of Gd3+ forces the oxygen electrons to orient themselves in a specific manner. This "prepares" the electrons for the transition to the triplet state even before the O-O bond is formed. To achieve this effect, an external magnetic field of approximately 0.1–0.5 T is applied to alkaline electrolyzers. This field aligns the magnetic moments of the Gd3+ ions in one direction, transforming the electrode surface into a "spin bridge." Because the electron spins are already polarized, the recombination of *O and *OH radicals into an O2 molecule occurs almost instantaneously. The activation energy decreases, and the reaction proceeds significantly faster.

The use of gadolinium in alkaline electrolysis cells reduces overvoltage by 50–100 mV, thereby increasing current density by 20–40% while maintaining the same voltage. Furthermore, adding a small amount of gadolinium to standard nickel or iron allows them to compete in efficiency with expensive catalysts based on precious metals such as iridium or ruthenium.

Gadolinium in Hydrogen Evolution Catalysts:

Gadolinium is most often incorporated into a matrix of transition metals (Ni, Co, Fe) or their oxides.
Gd3+ ions have a large ionic radius and a specific electron configuration. When incorporated into the nickel lattice, they cause localized deformation of the structure and redistribution of electron density on adjacent nickel atoms. This optimizes the metal-hydrogen bond energy. While pure nickel binds hydrogen too strongly, hindering its desorption as H2 gas, the presence of gadolinium weakens this bond.

The hydrogen evolution reaction at the cathode consists of two stages:
  • Proton adsorption
  • Combination of two hydrogen atoms into a molecule
To form a stable H2 molecule, the electrons of the two hydrogen atoms must have opposite spins (singlet state). The strong local magnetic field of the Gd3+ ion acts as a "quantum dispatcher." It promotes rapid spin reorientation of adsorbed hydrogen atoms. This accelerates their recombination and detachment from the electrode surface as gas bubbles.

Gadolinium combined with cerium oxide as a hydrogen evolution catalyst:
Ceria provides a high concentration of oxygen vacancies, while gadolinium creates active magnetic centers.
Studies show that at the interface between Gd and CeO2, the activation barrier for bond cleavage in water molecules is reduced by almost half. Gadolinium "pulls" hydroxyl groups toward itself, releasing hydrogen for further reduction.

Although the spin effect is more pronounced during oxygen evolution, an external field can be used in electrolysis to accelerate hydrogen evolution at the cathode. The magnetic field interacts with ions in the electrolyte, creating localized microcurrents (Lorentz forces). This helps to more quickly remove hydrogen bubbles from the catalyst surface, preventing clogging of the active centers.
   
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Zero theshold diodes have been around for a while.
...
Like free energy, it can be found everywhere C.C, but no one is able to turn it into something useful for everyone. When we mistake our desires for reality, the miracle solution remains in the mind of the believer.


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As regards the experiments with iron wire against permanent magnets, the attraction of electrons in the wire to the high field end is expected, and AI confirms this.  It involves the electrons being (a) spin polarized by (aligned with) the local field value and (b) being pulled by the field gradient.  Unfortunately any attempt to use this effect or even just measure it involves some electrons exiting the iron to travel along normal (non-pemeable) conductors.  In doing so they go through a field gradient taking them to zero field and also to zero spin polarization.  That induces force that opposes the movement, so cancelling the voltage induction we want to measure.  End of story!!

Or is it?  I said in message #200 that I was giving up but my brain wouldn't let me.  I asked myself is there any way we can use this effect but keeping the electrons within the iron?  That means using the charge build up at each end of the wire as in capacitors.  So capacitive coupling of some sort which means alternating charge and potential, not the DC value.  With the iron now being used as a transformer core how can we get the non-uniform longitudinal field requred?  The answer is to use flux concentrators where the flux along the core is constant but the flux density increases because of the tapered geometry.  Now we are in uncharted and unmeasured territory doing something that as far as I and AI know has not been done before.  We have an unusual style of tranformer core driven with AC where voltage induction is not derived from a secondary coil but is derived from charge separation along parts of the iron core.

Here is my first paper on the subject.

Smudge
   
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@Smudge

The idea of using the magnetic field gradient to move electrons is very interesting, despite the predictable weakness of the voltages. As with Hall effect rectification detection, the concern is the same: as soon as the electrons move due to the magnetic field gradient, internal electrostatic forces oppose them and tend almost instantly towards a new state of equilibrium.
In any case, I think I have a better way to verify the reality of the voltage, which is either to place a coil between the two plates, forming an LC circuit tuned to twice the frequency of the magnetisation current, or to place a quartz crystal of this frequency, which constitutes a resonator with a much better Q factor.
The accumulation of energy through resonance should make it easier to see the 2xF signature of the current. It's still a challenge, because generators always have harmonics and we could confuse the 2nd harmonic with a weak signal of the same frequency. I've already had this problem in similar research.

« Last Edit: 2026-03-03, 21:11:17 by F6FLT »


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Hi F6FLT,

You may have thought of using say a crystal ladder filter to clean up the generator output from the harmonics? And drive the test setup from the output of such filter.

If you have say 3 closely identical crystals in frequency, two of them would filter the harmonics and the 3rd one would serve as the high Q resonator. 

Though you surely know ladder filters, here is a useful page on calculating the capacitors for crystal ladder filters, the online program gives the filter impedance and
response too, based on the measured crystal parameters. How to arrive at the crystal parameters in a simple way also included.  https://www.giangrandi.org/electronics/xtalfilters/xtalfilters.shtml

Gyula




@Smudge

The idea of using the magnetic field gradient to move electrons is very interesting, despite the predictable weakness of the voltages. As with Hall effect rectification detection, the concern is the same: as soon as the electrons move due to the magnetic field gradient, internal electrostatic forces oppose them and tend almost instantly towards a new state of equilibrium.
In any case, I think I have a better way to verify the reality of the voltage, which is either to place a coil between the two plates, forming an LC circuit tuned to twice the frequency of the magnetisation current, or to place a quartz crystal of this frequency, which constitutes a resonator with a much better Q factor.
The accumulation of energy through resonance should make it easier to see the 2xF signature of the current. It's still a challenge, because generators always have harmonics and we could confuse the 2nd harmonic with a weak signal of the same frequency. I've already had this problem in similar research.
   

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@Smudge

The idea of using the magnetic field gradient to move electrons is very interesting, despite the predictable weakness of the voltages. As with Hall effect rectification detection, the concern is the same: as soon as the electrons move due to the magnetic field gradient, internal electrostatic forces oppose them and tend almost instantly towards a new state of equilibrium.
I understand that and IMO that instantaneous state of equilibrium gives rise to the charge distribution I show.
Quote
In any case, I think I have a better way to verify the reality of the voltage, which is either to place a coil between the two plates, forming an LC circuit tuned to twice the frequency of the magnetisation current, or to place a quartz crystal of this frequency, which constitutes a resonator with a much better Q factor.
The accumulation of energy through resonance should make it easier to see the 2xF signature of the current. It's still a challenge, because generators always have harmonics and we could confuse the 2nd harmonic with a weak signal of the same frequency. I've already had this problem in similar research.
If the system does drive displacement current through the capacitors, currents will flow within portions of the Fe core.  The internal inductance of current carrying Fe is considerably greater than its external inductance, so we already have signifcant internal circuit resonance that might be used to good effect.

Smudge 
   

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would be nice if there were a prog that could do it all, unlike femm.  like speaker driver design software. none to be had.  used to be 2 of them. one was called spead, as i hope i spelled it correctly.  many years ago.

found one article about a company that makes its own drivers. they say it is just basics and apply changes and test.  to me that seems stone age for these times of great tech.

i dont think it should be impossible to make such software. so why isnt there any? at least not any available to anyone who wants it.  but there most certainly should be.

mags
   
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Hi Mags,

Would these links give good info for you or it is something different you think of (I am not an expert on loadspeakers):
 https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/get-me-up-to-speed-on-software.417032/    and    https://loudsoft.com/

Gyula
   

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hey gyula

their title page is maybe a bit misleading. that is software to design the enclosure to specific volume and or vent tuning and show a graph chart of the results before building.

what im getting at is the driver, the speaker itself. the magnets. the voice coil and its electrical properties along with its length and weight. the magnetic core parts that are suppose to guide the magnets field to the voice coil. the suspension, as in the flexible rubber surround and its weight and tightness. the spider suspension, with likewise qualities to the rubber..  the cone or diaphragm stiffness and weight and active air compressing area. and more.

cant find that sort of prog.   speakers are everywhere in our daily lives. is it all just build and test and redesign till the wanted qualities are gained?  Spead was out like 20-25 yrs ago. eventually not available. another company Linear something was available also back then. havnt looked recently. spead was a true driver design product..

i use WinIsd beta for my enclosure designs. most shops, that still exist, find it very simple and trust able outcomes, and free. WinIsd pro does something special that would help in changing or improving an existing driver if one wants to get into that option. in pro if you change original specs of a speaker, it will recalculate the speakers abilities and other specs, such as sensitivity (spl@1w), Fs freq of resonance, etc. but it wont take you into the nitty gritty of design itself.

same with femm and others, they are lacking full sim possibilities.

sorry for interrupting. just making a case for such issues and wonder why we dont have access to these possibilities.  when you think about it, there probably is such softwares, but they are most likely not made public and are proprietary.  with all the tech available to us, one might think we would have access to something of the sorts these days. I have my own suspicions as to why we dont have access to speaker design sim software.  have posted on that in the past many times. but wont here.  just saying that if we did have full blown electromagnetic design software, it might make things to easy to see truths that are hidden from us.  ^-^

mags
   
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And this one seems doing most what you wish?  https://loudsoft.com/finemotor/  but pricey...

Gyula
   

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And this one seems doing most what you wish?  https://loudsoft.com/finemotor/  but pricey...

Gyula

oh wow!   nice find.  over the years i have looked. 

thanks

mags
   

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ok, last post on this. yeah, high price and need 3 of the softwares. the cone software is the most. about 15k for all 3.  ill look it over after work.  looks like just a recent thing as of last year.


 thanks again. 

mags
   
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