OUR Iron wire Tesla coil initiative.

[Grumage]

Hi Guys.

After reading T-1000's recent post. See below.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4553.msg109586#msg109586

I had a quick look to see what was available. Wires.co.uk stock enamelled Iron wire @ 0.71 mm diameter with a length of 160 Meters. I am willing to provide White PVC 50 mm tubes with a 0.5 mm depth groove using a 1 mm pitch to test this hypothesis. Having ' hung up my Clogs '  ( old Welsh miner's term for retirement ) so to speak with OU research I would be happy to help in some sort of group activity with other like minded members of OUR.

So who's willing to join in then eh?

Cheers Grum.

[lfarrand]

What about using tying wire commonly used in construction for tying together steel when reinforcing concrete? If you exposed it to water to develop rust, wouldn't that act as a (rudimentary) insulator? I guess it wouldn't be as good as enamel in terms of the max voltage insulation, but it's cheap and might be a good starting point. I actually have a reel in the garage that I bought a while ago.

https://www.lemon-gs.co.uk/tying-wire.html

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Iron_wire

Another option to consider is PVC coated garden wire.

[maxmalone]

I made such a coil of steel wire for fences. PVC and other rubber/silicone coating.

The effect was that the inductor heated the steel wire and nothing happened. You may need to use instead of 'kacher', e.g. spark gap with a capacitor. I haven't checked this variant.


Diall PVC steel wire 1.05-1.4 mm 50 m green
https://media2.castorama.pl/is/image/CastoramaPL/drut-stalowy-diall-pcv-1-05-1-4-mm-50-m-zielony~3663602918509_02c?$MOB_PREV$=&$width=64&$height=64

https://sklep.siatki-stal.pl/10645-large_default/drut-naciagowy-powlekany-fi-36-mm-dlugosc-50-m.jpg

[Grumage]

Thanks Guys.

The word Iron is suggesting that the material is virtually a pure ( yet to be determined ) wire made from the element Fe. Don't forget that Steel is not found naturally occurring. 

It has also been stated ( elsewhere ) that a Tesla coil wound using Aluminium wire performs differently to that of Copper wire version.

I wonder if we could get together and prove/disprove some of these statements once and for all ? As originally stated I'm happy to do the engineering work to make a standard PVC former with a 0.5 mm deep groove with a 1 mm pitch.

Cheers Grum.

[Smudge]

That Tesla patent in T100's post quite clearly describes a step-up transformer where the primary and secondary coils (not stated as iron so presumed to be whatever such coils were made of at that time) wound onto a core made from strands of iron.  Insulated strands take the place of laminations.  Of course you can wind a coil of many turns of iron wire and it becomes a laminated ring core on which you can wind classical toroidal coils.

Iron wire introduces inductance into any electrical coil wound using it so it appears as series inductance in the circuit.  It is known as internal inductance of the wire.  As an example Hallen's Electromagnetic Theory gives the inductance of a circular loop of thin wire that has circular cross section as the sum of two components, internal inductance Li and external inductance Le.  Li=μ_rμ₀a/4 and Le=μ₀a(log{8a/b}-2) where a is the coil radius and b is the wire radius and b<<a.  If the wire is of iron (μ_r>>1) the internal inductance dominates the external one.

Smudge 

[MerLynn]

That Tesla patent in T100's post quite clearly describes a step-up transformer where the primary and secondary coils (not stated as iron so presumed to be whatever such coils were made of at that time) wound onto a core made from strands of iron.  Insulated strands take the place of laminations.  Of course you can wind a coil of many turns of iron wire and it becomes a laminated ring core on which you can wind classical toroidal coils.

So Iron strands may or may not be needed to be used in the Core.
Iron electrical wires negates using iron strands as a core.
Copper then would require these iron strands.
He's telling you how to build it 2 different ways.
But I know which way works best.

Iron wire introduces inductance into any electrical coil wound using it so it appears as series inductance in the circuit.  It is known as internal inductance of the wire.  As an example Hallen's Electromagnetic Theory gives the inductance of a circular loop of thin wire that has circular cross section as the sum of two components, internal inductance Li and external inductance Le.  Li=μ_rμ₀a/4 and Le=μ₀a(log{8a/b}-2) where a is the coil radius and b is the wire radius and b<<a.  If the wire is of iron (μ_r>>1) the internal inductance dominates the external one.

We arent up to what INDUCTANCE is yet.
Im hoping we know by now that electricity is vibrations. not some mythical particle.
And we trust everyone knows a diode is JUST a battery
And We still dont know what a Silly Con transistor is because its related back to a flow of mythical marbles.



Smudge

[T-1000]

Thanks Guys.

The word Iron is suggesting that the material is virtually a pure ( yet to be determined ) wire made from the element Fe. Don't forget that Steel is not found naturally occurring. 

Thanks Grum for initiative
The iron wires used back in 1800s was not pure iron. Needs a more digging in history what was available for transformers at that time.
I would use "soft iron" material composition as closely as possible to have same setup as N. Tesla in his lab.

@T

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8vnHVV25tU

Bedini says an iron coil is backwards to a copper coil. Meaning to get North at one end and South at the other you connect + & - reverse to a copper coil.
This also means the field collapse is reversed. 

Leedskalnin made currents with iron coil and no core needed this way.

Cheers,
wlw

And as @whitelightningwizard pointed out we might recover lost details in history because of wrong material used for Tesla coils wiring over last century. The iron is magnetic material and copper is diamagnetic material. That says a lot when you have to deal with magnetic field and electricity on wires themselves and their implications. And I would like to withold any speculations in advance. The experiment first and theories after - this is old way of doing real science. Not way around like everyone do over last century.

Cheers!

[MerLynn]

The iron is magnetic material and copper is diamagnetic material.

Cheers!

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4553.75

this distraction of Magnetic and para-magnetic to materials is by design To Hide the true Nature of magnetism or the Magnetic Bias of 'elements'.
The distraction of Alkaline and Acidic to the Magnetic Polarity of Liquids (or whatever) is by design so you dont understand Magnetic BIAS of the GASES or LIQUIDS as evidenced in this Video.....  https://rumble.com/vh7v87-im-plosions-and-ex-plosions-demo.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=4
Copper is a 'South Pole' metal and Iron is a 'North Pole' Metal. Together they make a Battery.

Your words have confused your thoughts because there is no Magnetism in the Atomic PARTICLE theory but there is Para-magnetism in the practical applications of this particle theory....  We call this Dissociative Cognizance

[T-1000]

Your words have confused your thoughts because there is no Magnetism in the Atomic PARTICLE theory but there is Para-magnetism in the practical applications of this particle theory....  We call this Dissociative Cognizance

It is actually more simple than you might think. Put iron wire onto magnet and it will extend magnetic field so any other iron can stick to the end of it.
Put copper wire on magnet and this is the end of where magnetic field interaction goes.
And please just do and share experiments instead of pure speculation going in walls of text.

As far as Tesla coils are concerned with iron wire instead of copper, the plan would be to build few exactly same coils from iron wire. And as a bonus then see what you can prove or disprove from magnetic field multiplication claims like in https://youtu.be/oyionE-sCis?si=Xan0fwMECrAGyXse&t=672

P.S> The good reading to help with getting into N. Tesla shoes - https://ia902902.us.archive.org/31/items/theinventionsresearchesandwritingsofthomascommerfordmartin/The%20inventions%2C%20researches%20and%20writings%20of%20-%20Thomas%20Commerford%20Martin.pdf (from https://www.gutenberg.org/files/39272/39272-h/39272-h.htm , archived in https://www.gutenberg.org/files/39272/39272-h.zip )

[MerLynn]

And please just do and share experiments instead of pure speculation going in walls of text.

There is no wall of text here in this thread... Just a video of an experiment of the Only 2 forces in the Universe.
Implosion and explosion
Compression and Expansion (Russellian)
Yin and Yang.
Negative and Positive.
North and South.
Also known as Hydrogen and Oxygen. 
Man only plays with the HOT, explosive, oxygen, South Pole Energies. The opposite and Equal is Cold Fusion. or LENR
If they only understood the Magnetics used to create Hydrogen from Liquid Electricity, They would use it differently.

[Itsu]

Hi Graham, 

nice initiative indeed, and normally i would take a shot at it working together, but seeing how also this thread is already being hijacked and being used to force up some none sense way of thinking like the many other threads present in this forum right now, i pass for now.

Perhaps in due time when this "wave of silliness" is over we can pick it up again.

Thanks,  Regards Itsu

[AlienGrey]

Itsu some time ago chatting to Tinsel K I noticed his termination of his Tesla coil looked like he had some sort of wire loop at the top end of his high end of his winding I usually use copper tape None shorted loop he said he used iron wire trick
I asked him what he meant by that and would not answer. So does an iron wire last turn do something special ? Is that of use to you.

The other thing is the ¼ wave thing suppose primary is 1000 turns the it's important to know wire length used and then to know what ¼ of the wire length is when taking off energy.

I suppose it's possible to keep dividing down providing to find 3 or 5 harmonic as a multiple division to find the maximum energy excel oration transfer for the secondary.
 
Sil

[Grumage]

Thanks Itsu.. 

By placing a V shaped groove into the PVC former ( @ 0.5 mm deep ) I should have a circumference of 49 mm. My workshop Pi has always been 3.142. So we're looking at an approximate 154 mm per revolution. Am I correct that using the full coil of 160 meters would give me a coil of just over 100 turns? Please forgive my vagueness, currently suffering with a serious head cold....

I wonder if Gyula would be willing to provide an estimated resonance frequency for us please?

Cheers Graham.

[AlienGrey]

Thanks Itsu.. 

By placing a V shaped groove into the PVC former ( @ 0.5 mm deep ) I should have a circumference of 49 mm. My workshop Pi has always been 3.142. So we're looking at an approximate 154 mm per revolution. Am I correct that using the full coil of 160 meters would give me a coil of just over 100 turns? Please forgive my vagueness, currently suffering with a serious head cold....

I wonder if Gyula would be willing to provide an estimated resonance frequency for us please?

Cheers Graham.

Graham your playing that fun game of counting the windings to find the resonance of frequency  against wire length,
you can get into problems with pi and tube diameter i find the best way is to find some wire of similar diameter and wind ten winds around
a blank section of the coil tube and measure it as accurately as you can then divide it by 10 and then you have the length of 1 turn or wind
Multiply that by the total number of winds then you have the wave length. All you need to know now is the capacitance to find the frequency.

I hope that is of use.
Sil
l

[T-1000]

Graham your playing that fun game of counting the windings to find the resonance of frequency  against wire length,

When I do make some Tesla coils, I always have wire length = 1/4th of wavelength and multiplied by 0.7-0.8 for resonant frequency. When you wind it to spool depending the diameter and length of the tube the resonant frequency changes. There are old calculations from many people for approximate resonant frequency just in practice it is never exactly same.
With iron wire this also will change since other properties such as higher wire resistance add up and I am curious to see the magnetic field propagation too when you add top load to the Tesla coil.

@itsu just ignore thread hijacking, since Stefan from overunity.com officially is redirecting everyone to this forum on main page. So we get all kinds of people now in this forum.

[whitelightningwizard]

nice initiative indeed, and normally i would take a shot at it working together, but seeing how also this thread is already being hijacked and being used to force up some none sense way of thinking like the many other threads present in this forum right now, i pass for now.

Perhaps in due time when this "wave of silliness" is over we can pick it up again.

"In The Wave Lies The Secret of Creation" 

-Walter Russell

wlw

[Grumage]

Thanks Guys.

So, is there some specific frequency we're aiming for? I was under the impression that a coil, wound on an air former would have its own resonant frequency? Can we work with that?

Cheers Graham.

[Chet K]

T1000
Quote

@itsu just ignore thread hijacking, since Stefan from overunity.com officially is redirecting everyone to this forum on main page. So we get all kinds of people now in this forum.
End quote

I am going to beg Stefan to post more links to "open source" forums on his front page,
There are several new ones too,
Maybe he will do this for New Year?
Respectfully
Chet K

[Allcanadian]

T1000

For background information, in one of N. Tesla patents - https://patents.google.com/patent/US381970A/en "use a core, A, which is closed upon itselfthat is to say, of an annular cylindrical or equivalent form--and as the eflicicncy of the apparatus is largely increased by the subdi vision of this core I make it of thin strips, plates, or wires of soft iron electrically insulated as far as practicable."

There may be some confusion regarding the patent US381970A.

If we read the patent and diagrams Tesla talks about using laminated iron strips or wires for the coil core labelled A. Which as he claims is common practice to reduce eddy currents. Tesla then talks about winding two pairs of inducing or primary coils labelled B over the laminated iron core A. The induced or secondary coils C are then wound over coils B. In effect this is how almost all iron core toroidal transformers are constructed.

However Tesla goes further and claims...

The construction of this or any equivalent form of converter may be carried further, as above pointed out, by enclosing these coils with iron, as for example, by winding over the coils a layer or layers of insulated iron wire.

Here Tesla is talking about winding a layer of iron wire over the primary B and secondary C coils. These are commonly called encapsulated transformers having magnetic material inside and outside of the coils. So the copper coils are encapsulated between two layers of magnetic material to enclose or contain the external magnetic field.

It's not common knowledge but in reality most standard transformers leak flux like a sieve. We can induce one transformer from another with supposedly closed cores because in reality there not completely closed. My magnetometer arrays can also detect the flux leakage a few feet away from a standard transformer. This happens because the magnetic field from each coil turn links with the turn next to it inside and outside the coil as shown below. Note how the external parallel magnetic field lines tend to repel one another expanding outward. One could ask, if the expanding external field lines form closed loops and cannot cross then how could they induce the coils?.

As such it makes sense to concentrate the internal and external magnetic field around the coils to minimize leakage and increase efficiency.

AC

[CITFTA]

Thanks Guys.

So, is there some specific frequency we're aiming for? I was under the impression that a coil, wound on an air former would have its own resonant frequency? Can we work with that?

Cheers Graham.

You are correct Graham.  A wire wound onto a coil form will have a lower resonant frequency than the same lenght of wire stretched straight out.  The hafl wave length for a given frequency is the lenght of half the wave of the signal in air.  To calculate the resonant frequency of a coil of wire you have to use the proper formula which I have forgotten and haven't taken the time to look up.

Carroll

[Itsu]

Thanks Itsu.. 

By placing a V shaped groove into the PVC former ( @ 0.5 mm deep ) I should have a circumference of 49 mm. My workshop Pi has always been 3.142. So we're looking at an approximate 154 mm per revolution. Am I correct that using the full coil of 160 meters would give me a coil of just over 100 turns? Please forgive my vagueness, currently suffering with a serious head cold....

I wonder if Gyula would be willing to provide an estimated resonance frequency for us please?

Cheers Graham.

Hi Graham,

With the effective tube diameter to be D: 49mm, the circumference is then 153.938mm (15.4cm) 

But with a wire length of 160m it gets 16000cm / 15.4cm = 1038.962 (say 1039) turns.
With a 1mm pitch on the former, we get a coil length of 1039mm (103.9cm).

Using this tesla coil calculator:  http://www.classictesla.com/java/javatc/javatc.html  i put in this data (copper wire) into it for the secondary only:



I get this result:



So it seems the resonance frequency will be around 1091kHz.

No change in this result when using aluminium wire.

No data for iron wire here.


UPDATE:  Using a different calculator: http://gorchilin.com/calculator/coil14?lang=en and putting in the same data i get:



Itsu

[T-1000]

No data for iron wire here.

Another reason to do extensive tests for science to fill the gaps
As for material, the copper and aluminum are diamagnetic materials. And iron is magnetic which essencially creates transformer core while being coil itself.

[AlienGrey]

I can remember some chat about iron wire and wound a TC with iron wire it was quite thin in a torrid format from one of the garden centers (B&Q)and was PVC sleeved it didn't behave very well at 2Mhz got hot and low output, also made a torrid out of it that wasn't too good at all but not to bad at 50 or 60 hz and up to 100hz used it in the garden after that and gave the torrid bun to my daughter
who's a keen gardener.

sil

[Grumage]

Thanks Itsu.

A misplaced Decimal point makes a huge difference....

The Lathe does not have a 1 Metre long lead screw so I shall have to think about down sizing. My other problem is that I don't have a FG that goes into the MHz range. Is there a way of manipulating the coil into the KHz range?

Cheers Graham.

[lfarrand]

Is there a way of manipulating the coil into the KHz range?

Add a capacitor into the mix? Introduce a ferrite core? Increasing inductance or capacitance will lower the resonant frequency.



https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/resonant-frequency-lc