agentgates - Has He Done It??

stprue · 2010.01.06, 12:59:47

Peterae · 2010.01.06, 15:06:16

Here is his first post and Winding post

I have contacted Stefan and he confirmed that a working TPU can win the prize. Please everybody avoid flame in this topic.

@Stefan, I have found the answers for the issue I mentioned in my email last night (or morning?). Please move it in the appropriate one as it seems to be locked right now. Many thanks.

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I, Anthony Sprader claim that I have succesfully replicated/reverse engineered the torroidal performance multiplier transformer device (TPMT, formerly referred TPU) presented by Steven Mark.

The device itself is a combination of a low frequency switching power supply in kHz range and electron accelerator that provides more electrical power and current than the primary side receives.

The cause of the significantly higher drained electrical performance is that the primary coil has a diagonal long step winding technique that causes rotating magnetic field flow along side the secondary coil. The output electrical current is a sum of two different type of current. The first is created via conventional electromagnetic induction by the primary coil and has normal hole and electron flow components while the gained electrical current is a spontanous electron flow without hole counterparts.

Due to the unusual nature of the gained electricity the majority appears on the closest PN semiconductor rather than the load where electrons can find they hole counter parts trapped between the PN layers. The closest PN semiconductor is usually the switching transistor component on the primer side. The higher primary input causes exponentially higher hole and electron imbalance in the primary driving coil thus the heat loss is also increasing exponentially between the switching PN layers.

Therefore there are several possible ways to decrease the amount of impacted electrons on the PN switching device.

1. Decreasing the input performance and duty cycle to decrease the exponential hole and electron imbalance and increase the efficiency by using TPMT devices in multiple stages to boost the output. (presently it needs 2 stages min. to power a 250V 50W light bulb on 190V)
2. Using multiple primary coils and switching them after each other to rest the PN layers on each switching channel. (e.g. Johnson-counter and several oversized IGBTs or FETs)
3. Avoiding the use of PN switching devices.

In case of winning the majority of the prize would support further developments of the technology to comply requirements of mass production.

(Please read the email below with the description I sent to Stefan this morning and disregard the typos as it was very late. Photos and vids are coming.)

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> how I could send you back the test device, when the test time is over or would you like to donate the device to me ?

Yes of course I have already made a coil for you yesterday that naturally you can keep. The one I mentioned puts out 190V to the 50W for ~30 seconds before you can smell the plastic on it, so it's a bit below 50W and since I don't have light bulb for 1W handy at the moment to verify the requirements I decided to build a larger device for you that comfortably supply usable energy. Before I send it I will also video it and upload it to my youtube channel.

> a 9 Volts Battery would be okay, if it runs for days and puts out already 50 Watts.

I wouldn't push the prize with the 9V battery, I just enquired whether I have a chance with a device that not I invented firstly (replica/reverse-engineering) to win th OUP as I need to put more money in research to refine the device, make it smaller, more efficient, safe for mass production, make formulas for sizing and keep the thing simple. I have already spent a few thousand pounds on it over the years. So I just wanted make sure, also I'd like to understand what's happening inside the working models before I apply. I believe in complete work before opening the champaign.

Today when I built your device I found that the energy moves in the device is far above 1kW, the only obstacle that it comes out where you would never expect it: it doesn't heat the coil at all, they remain cold but cooks the switching FET on the primary coil nearly instantly. My device works, yours not yet...

We always learn.

I was driving it with a power supply (0-3A / 0-30V / max. 90W) and switching it with a single IGBT (rated 1200V/74A in pulse and 500W in fully open state) between 5 and 500kHz/50% square waves (I can't remember the freq exactly but it is only important when you put the load on it). When I put the PSU to the max. I saw a big flash after ~3 sec. and the soldering on the mentioned well oversized IGBT's middle pin has molten and released the wire, which was ~1.5mm in diameter and sticked to the next pin to it. That should be an enormous amount of power couldn't appear in the secondary coil and naturally impossible to do it with a 90W input.

> Does it only depend on special coil configurations or do you use also magnets in it ?

Yes and no. Magnet is not necessary but the coil winding is very important and as I noticed so far this is where one of the key secret is. I use a "triangular" winding technique for the primary that seems to be vital. I worked out this technique while I was playing with the Rodin coil (that could be good for primary with one coil and large spaces) and I was thinking how the current flows in it. It flows in a cicular pattern and after it takes the ~360 degrees it comes in the next to it and doing it over and over again until leaves the coil. I remembered when I started the TPU research I had coil that worked but I have successfully caused a thousand pound damage in my lab during the research and I couldn't work for nearly a year on it. 8-10 months later when I've bought the new instruments I didn't remember clearly which coil worked how I connected them, but a couple of days ago a guy posted a schematic and I had a dejavu. Something told me that I have seen this technique before which is almost identical to what I was doing. I digged out that coil from the crate, connected it and the signal was what I expected. Then I took a look at SM's naked coil with the magnet but this time on the JD released vids and it clicked in when I saw the winding on the rim. "That is the one! I know now why I did it this way back then!" The winding pattern is the same as you would wind a Rodin coil but not necessary to stick to the 150-degree-step (mine is wound with 60 and actually this is another thing that I want to verify which is the best). So you go around with long steps, leave well enough space and when you're done with one circle you simply continue and lay the next wire in the space of the previous circle. You repeat this technique as long as you want, but (I think) you need to do min 2 circles (later need to be verified again).

I give you details on the first working device (which performs far better than the second one

):

to replicate it you'd need these things:
- Paper mailing tube, 80mm in diameter, 70mm long and 2mm thick wall
- 0.38mm for primary (I wouldn't use it again, need a thicker min 0.74mm)
- 0.74mm for secondary (same issue, not thick enough, min 1mm)

Both of the wires are regular enamelled solid copper wires used for transformers. (After seeing what I have already seen here I wouldn't be surprised if this device doesn't work with soft wires. I think this is why the current has to struggle to flow in the secondary. Possibility for Litze wire also should be verified later.)

Oversized switching MOSFET/IGBT and large heatsink (for now as this is where the power loves to be built up and not on the load hooked up to the secondary).

This is not important at all, but I use a 9A mosfet driver. That was just handy in the breadboard and I need something to increase the signal as the max output 3.5V of my waveform generator.

Use a knife and cut off the tube and cut in 3 gaps about 1mm deep and 120 degrees to each other on the top and bottom edges, but make 60 degrees offset between the top and bottom sides. So when you look at it they will be in a zig-zag pattern to each other and not above and below. Then you place the primary wire in the 1st gap and keep windind it perpendiculary to the tube. When you're done with the first circle all gaps should be filled with wire. Then you are keep going in this form, but you lay the next circle about 3-5mm to the previous wire.

When you are done with the primary, wind the secondary on it as you would normally do it with e.g. a Tesla coil's secondary. (I did it very tight but later we can try it out with gaps.) I used a tape between the P/S coils to fix the primary. When you look inside your coil it should show a twisted form similar to the Rodin coil and the primary wires are hovering over the tube. An important thing: probably you remember the little guy and the TV that exploded in the 60s that SM mentioned. The coils on the CRT tube are wound in this pattern, this is what I used as a starting point when I made my first device many years ago. (AFAIK this winding pattern is still in use and I think that a part of that energy used in CRTs are not all from the mains.)

Ok, when your coil is ready, hook up the PG, PSU, the FET to the primary coil and scope to the input and output. Do it without load on the secondary! Set the PG to 50% square wave and a low frequency as a start, like 100Hz and slowly increase the power on the PSU. You will see a beautiful DC hump growing. This is only possible if you have a slight rotating magnetic field as the winding with the big spaces have a very low inductance. Basically this device is a transformer with a Rodin coil wound on a tube and a Tesla coil on it. It is a simple as this.

Now, put a load on it and find a comfortable duty cycle that your load likes. Increase the frequency and the input. If the load is too big you can fry eggs on the heatsink as all the power will appear on the FET. I think this is because of the nature of that current is different. That is not a normal current flow where you have both holes and electron flow. I think the balance of electrons and holes are not equal. One of them is trying to build up on the PN transision of the FET/IGBT. I don't know yet, it also should be investigated.

> Does it use any bifilar coils, where the inductance cancels each other from the 2 parellel wires and uses high frequency for standing wave effects?

No, it doesn't need anything like that.

> On what frequencies does it work ?

Not critical, depending on your load. It is nothing but a performance multiplier transformer where the output is the sum of the input and the extracted energy. You can use it in a wide range from 100Hz to 1MHz if you have a well shielded room as there is radio broadcasting in the higher frequency ranges and at that power you can disturb it.

> Do you also need 3 driver frequencies ?

No but it would be easier to distribute the heat and rest the FETs. If you shoot multiple channels in series as I said in my first post on your site (a year ago or 2) you can decrease the built up electrons or holes (whichever is the case) so they will not pull the current toward the fet and will go in the other way, the load on the secondary.

> I am pretty excited to hear, that somebody really has achieved a selfrunning TPU.

Thanks.

I am also feeling better as I pay 100 pounds electricity every month to heat my 42 sqm appartment. Now at least I can get warm at the over unity heatsinks powered by a 1.5kW IGBT and hooked up to the screwed up TPU I made for you.

> a 9 Volts Battery would be okay, if it runs for days and puts out already 50 Watts. That would be hardly to achieve only with a small 9 Volts battery....

Maybe I have forgotten to tell the 9V think was done by 2 or 3 TPUs in series and the bat was quite hot. Actually I used them as step-up transformes after each other, but rather they would cause drop in the current they increase both the power and current. I think those are not inductors on SM's TPUs, those ar mini TPUs driving the big ones. I looked at his devices again and I understood everything. (when we are over the hard work perhaps I will make some drawings on how his devices work)

The LTPU probably has 2 mini TPUs and the coils are in series on each small TPU, but they are connected not in the usual way and rather having 2 coils on each mini TPU, those are 4 or 8 and the crossing is below the device. The foil cap is perhaps in parallel with the output to smooth the HV spikes. I guess the LTPU has 2 driving channels for heat and peak distribution and for resting the transistors. I noticed that this fenomenon happens when you put the freq two high, also the IGBTs have slower falling edges thus they can trap holes or electrons in an unexpected way.

I used FETs before but if I wanted to make usable power. They simply got a whole over the plastic if I gave them the juice. It doesn't mean that you can't do it with FETs, but with these coils I used you need well oversized swithing circuits. I saw a video with John Bedini and saw one of his kW device and there were several (8?) switching FETs/IGBTs in TO-247 package in parallel configuration to power a single driving coil. The heatsink was the case itself. That relatively small coil didn't look that tough and would not require that. I think he has the same problem with the gained energy, it wants to go toward the closest P/N semiconductor. (before I forget: schottky diodes could be another solution as they work differently, no PN semiconductors)

> You can also start posting the blueprints or just a circuit diagramm first and then add stuff like videos or pictures later.

To be honest some characters are a bit arrogant and I don't feel to comfortable standing on the stage. That is why I contacted you.
Diagrams are trivial, simple switching circuit, the critical is the winding technique.

I attached a few pictures on how the first zig-zag coil was built. The paper tube coil is the working coil, the big one (yellow inside) is the one I built for you, on the picture it is unfinished. That doesnt work.

Possible reasons:
- soft wire for secondary, the profile is not circular as the collected electrons want to move and spin in a helix form
- 2-sided crossing primary coils can cause disturbance in electron flow
- thick insulation on the secondary, therefore bigger the gap between conducting media. Plumbing pipe could be ideal for secondary with thin plastic tape on it for larger devices.
- too many divisions on each circle, should be decreased and verified, 120
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UPDATE

IMPORTANT SAFETY REQUIREMENTS

1. Never feed back the output in the input directly, only by filtering it and take it back before the switching devices as it will extract literally infinite energy and create an extremely high electromagnetic field in the environment. Probably that was the cause of the accident with the TV that SM mentioned killed a 5-year-old child when the electron accelerators coil got an input from another coil that it triggered as secondary (very likely accidentally due to overheating).

2. Separate the primary and secondary units galvanically as the output current is hazardous, also keep that in mind if you connect instruments, like scope on both the primary and secondary coils you will make a common ground through the scope between the two separate circuit.

Winding technique
>>The tube with cuts on both sides<< I did it with 6 on both sides but on the next pic you can see that 3 is enough in "zig-zag"
>>After the first "circle" is done<< you just continue with laying it to the next to the other wire.
>>This is how the the primary coil looks when its done<<. Mind that this is a one channel primary input, so not as efficient than 2 or 3 in an alternating way. Just for feeding my curiousity I made another coil where I didn't cut the wire after finishing, but contiuned to fill the gap between the complete coil. That performed worse than the original one. That is the one I used to drive the main TPU.

Coil hooked up
>>This is how it looks with a few turnes of secondary<<. It is not what it looks like after finishing just found a piece of copper on the workbech and thought I'll try it whether it worths to open another roll.

Yes it does, you will see that in the next pictures.

The results are already remarkable only with 3 turns.
>>same thing, a bit sharper photo<<

Instruments without load
>>The input without load on the secondary<< I put the voltage DC source to the max.
>>The output<< Pulsed DC, exactly what we were expecting.

64V peaks. Not too much but it isn't bad with 3 turns of secondary.

The load
>>The victim<< 2.2 ohms, 5W resistor, just to be sure...

Instruments with load
>>0.02A drop on the input DC<<
>>1/3 peak on the output<<

After a minute operation the resistor became hot, temperature between 40-50C. I don't mention poor 500W IGBTs...

Stefan's coil
>>This is what it looks like after the first round and a bit more<< Mind the number of "zig-zags", I tried it with smaller steps, also used a bit thicker for primary wire and the electrons want to flow in this one, rather than the 250V 30A rated soft wire.

>>The IGBT murder in the circuit<<

>>3x500W=1.5kW IGBT's<< in parallel. Still not enough, they would cook in 10 sec if I would leave them running.

My tube coil design
>>This is another design for primary coil<< I made it a few weeks ago and planned to stick a perfectly matching Tesla secondary coil inside the hole. (not in the middle) Also I have an idea to wind a very long coil in the same fashion and place a copper tube as a secondary in the centerline that reaches the primary inside. This is actually a "flatten" or net version of the Rodin coil that you can make any long. My first plan is to drive it as a TPU primary coil. (2 channels). My theory is that you can make a very fast spinning magnetic field that could move the electrons even faster in the conducting medium. It can also be perfect to build very efficient eddy current motor that you can place inside of the wheel of a car. You don't need complicated transmission system and it also drains most of the energy from the ambient.

A REQUEST TO EVERYONE

Please make sure you save and download everything you see and read here. Photos, documents, and the videos and upload them onto P2P networks. Torrent, emule, etc. and preserve this technology, dont let it loose again. Test it and spread it! We dont need another SM who sits on it for decades for prestige or other reasons while millions dying in war on fossils.

Thank you for your kind messages and offers, but I wouldn't like to accept money until we see self-running device, this was my request to Stefan as well.

Ok, Gentleman I gave up to try to sleep and I made new coil. I used the main coil as a base with those small alterations we discussed:

Changes
- 45 degree on the primary angle, that I achieved by cutting shorter tube. The length is now 46mm instead of 70mm.
- I made it a bit tidy, so cut the edge in at every 10 degrees, you will have wire 36 holding gaps on each side. (altogether 72) It makes the winding process 5 minutes on the primary!
- The turnes on the secondary. It was 36 on the completed coil (I didn't post pic on that, only with 3 turn on the same tube) now it is 3 again.
- The gaps between the secondary turns, they were tight now there is 10mm gap. (the most important found)
- The secondary diameter, it was 0.74mm, now 1.40.

What didn't change
- The diameter and wall thickness of the tube (80mm and 2mm).
- The diameter of the primary wire. (0.40mm)
- The materials: solid copper, paper tube.
- My curiosity: still cant sleep.

Test environment

Input parameters 500kHz/50% square wave, 31VDC, 0.8A. 3x IGBTs in parallel. Rated 1200V/74A/500W per each.

Conclusions

Positive results
- The output peak became just beautiful. Rises on an exponential curve and symmetrically falls dow. If you make 3 channels of it you will get the "JET-turbine effect" SM said, so we can decrease the input current as well and the IGBT's will not heat as they only need to pile movement on a wire that already has some electron flow triggered by the previous channel.
- RF noise components disappeared after the peak as I wanted, no rectifier bridge needed anymore to clean up the negative range.
- Output peak goes to 153V. No significant drop on it after connecting the 250V/50W halogene light bulb. Only a few volts.
- IGBTs are doing better due to the lack of noise components.

Negative results
- Primary wire is still heating, so time to increase the channels to 3 and change it to a bigger on the next device if still an issue. (The next size I'v got handy is 0.74mm.)
- Voltage is too low to make light on the bulb, so need to increase the secondary turnes and decrease the gaps. e.g fully wound secondary from top to bottom with 2x bigger gaps than the diameter (~3mm).
- Need more spikes to fill the gaps, so the next milestone is the 3 channel and a syncronised driving circuitry. (I have professional equipment with 12 CH pulse generator and an own PC software to create any kind of bit pattern)

Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:30:49 PM

Is that a left handed wind on the primary I see?

I don't know what handed that is.

But it only changes the polarity of the secondary.

Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:30:49 PM

Also have you tried a lesser or greater angle on the primary winds? And if so what did you see?

Yes but I also changed some other parameters as well, so we don't know about the result of it. Now the standard is 45 degree and will remain as it seems perform well. But it is a useful idea, later we can try to change it.

Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM

If this is indeed a source of such a huge power then two questions arise:
1. The design is very simple. Why has nobody observed this effect during billions of experiments before? People have successfully developed and applied technology for extracting power from a controlled nuclear chain reaction and missed this simple and clean path? Unbelievable.

The design is naturally very simple and indeed the primary winding technique is still in use within CRT TVs as an electron accelerator. This is what I use it for.

To find simple things is always difficult.

Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM

2. Where the hell the energy comes from? What are we dealing with?

The energy is very likely from cosmic background but I will talk about it in a video lecture as it is not easy to understand in writing. I will have to make charts to make it understandable as it is.

Quote from: Operator on January 05, 2010, 08:44:32 PM

Tomorrow I'll try this design... I just can't believe it until I see the bulb glowing on my table.

I hope so.

Keep an eye on the updates as I am trying to make it simpler and cheaper to duplicate.

Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:50:21 PM

What would happen if it was wound in a right handed manner?

Would change the polarity on the secondary output.

Quote from: starcruiser on January 05, 2010, 08:50:21 PM

What would happen or be experienced if one was left handed and another was right handed and those were stacked and inter connected?

I presume that you'd get very bad results. Remember it is not only a switching power supply, but also an electron accelerator. It is a very important thing you have to keep always in mind.

Imagine the secondary as hose pipe where you want to make a liquid flowing. If its in an untidy pile and you open high pressure water on it it's going to wave to the neighbors.

In our case it would cause unexpected collisions, rather than a smooth flow. In other words you need to make the electron flow as smooth as possible. You can only do it if you avoid primary-primary and secondary-secondary wires crossing or touching each other.

You create this smooth electron flow with the primary is a spinning manner. You spin up the electrons as vortex and yet it will automatically flow much faster and much more electrons you'd expect at a normal transformer.

Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM

I wonder whether there is any flyback diode used to protect the FET(s) against the large voltage occurring at the drains right after switching off the primary coil....

Naturally not as I want that energy to be harvested on the secondary side and not on the primary PSU.

So Need to adjust the winding parameters to make the flow in the secondary as smooth as possible.

Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM

The description of the output power is still vague.

Not really as top IGBTs don't cook from nothing, especially not in 3 sec with molten solder and zinc plating on the back side. (I will post photos of that)

Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM

It's not said that the output is > 1KW. It says 'it moves > 1KW'. Probably to the switching fet(s), instead of the output.

Yes, presently it is true but I am on it to get that out on the output.

Quote from: teslaalset on January 05, 2010, 10:30:19 PM

I'll have some more patience to see what exactly the input / output configuration is.

My task list is presently so long that probably that will be the last thing we do when I finish the demo device in a few days to Stefan and make it selfrunning.

Lindsay Mannix · 2010.01.07, 05:19:05

I just recieved a response to a photo of an agentgates rodin wind.

he said he enjoyed it very much

but it was from a ghost, aparrently ?

Spider · 2010.01.07, 10:33:34

Hi L,

From whom?

Spider

Farrah Day · 2010.01.07, 12:56:47

I think one of the most curious things about Agentgates coil is the fact that there are so few actual turns involved and hence so few points of high interaction between the primary and the secondary coils. It brings to mind the Caduceous coil, which itself would appear to exhibit some strange properties.

BEP · 2010.01.07, 17:52:21

FD,

Glad to see you are with us. No, I haven't changed my ways.

The cad coil is indeed a curiuos thing. Poloidal coils wound on a toroid are said to completely contain the magnetic flux.
To me it seems a cad coil wound as a toroid completely ejects the same flux.
With my crazy view of the electric and magnetic relationship you sqeeze one out and the other fills the void.
I have quite technical reasons for this belief but not something I wish to explain on a cell phone.

Then the only problem is how to rotate whatever has filled the void.

Two of the same signal each applied to a dipole each dipole 90 deg to the other. This creates the rotation I harp about.
Whether AG is doing this or not is unknown to me.
I do like his PN junction idea as this is known in small amounts. This would then mean his junction and the heatsink must be placed in the center.

BEP · 2010.01.07, 17:54:06

I hope he isn't laughing an yet another futile attempt.

Turbo · 2010.01.07, 18:40:07

ofcource he is

Farrah Day · 2010.01.07, 18:50:33

Hi WW.

Guys, just as a side note, if you check out the Bob Boyce thread, you'll find that Boyces WFC set up relied on a toroidal former wound with a secondary and three primary coils, each primary pulsed separately. Check out the links posted there whereby some guy has developed Boyce's set up to charge his kid's toy car battery... while the same battery also powers the charger!

I simply bring this up to highlight the similarities between his toroidal and Agentgates, and the fact that there might well be more than one way to skin this cat!

Farrah Day · 2010.01.07, 23:54:09

No doubt, like you guys, I'm keeping one eye on the developments on Hartmanns forum, and I'm becoming just a little bit nervous. What is currently lacking is crucial input output data and I'm starting to get a slightly bad taste in my mouth about this... hope I'm wrong.

Agentgates gives a figure of 4.75 ohms for his primary winding

so is it just me or does this seem like a very high resistance for relatively short length of enamelled wire? I guess he might mean impedance a Khz, but it's not at all obvious.

Also he talks of holes as if they are something other than just the space left by an electron, which has me scratching my head a bit. Granted however, this may just be down to something being lost in translation... or indeed my lack of comprehension.

MileHigh · 2010.01.08, 01:53:55

Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this one has no chance and I can only assume the builder/tester is making measurement errors.

If you step outside of the "exotic coil box" for a minute, essentially any coil coupling configuration can be tested in pretty much the same way.

You excite the primary with a pure sine wave and then you check how the output looks for different frequencies and loads. You characterize it for the transformer coupling ratio and the -3 dB frequency cutoff and the coupling efficiency and maximum stored inductive energy and stuff like that. I am not a transformer expert. However, for single conductor primaries, all talk about "corkscrewing" magnetic fields and the like is fantasy.

Sorry to rain on the parade.

MileHigh

BEP · 2010.01.08, 02:28:02

Quote from: MileHigh on 2010.01.08, 01:53:55
Sorry to be a party-pooper, but this one has no chance and I can only assume the builder/tester is making measurement errors.

If you step outside of the "exotic coil box" for a minute, essentially any coil coupling configuration can be tested in pretty much the same way.

You excite the primary with a pure sine wave and then you check how the output looks for different frequencies and loads. You characterize it for the transformer coupling ratio and the -3 dB frequency cutoff and the coupling efficiency and maximum stored inductive energy and stuff like that. I am not a transformer expert. However, for single conductor primaries, all talk about "corkscrewing" magnetic fields and the like is fantasy.

Sorry to rain on the parade.

MileHigh

Why would I expect anything different?

All you posted is true for classic induction. Have you ever built/tested anything but a solenoid coil?

Oh, let me guess. All coils are the same, aren't they?

Never the less, I respect your opinion, MH. I also respect the results of bench work by others and myself (some others).

poynt99 · 2010.01.08, 03:30:55

SM's device is not a conventional transformer, and little to no conventional induction is expected.

If it works, something quite different is occurring, and we can't use conventional testing to vet it's usefulness as a translation device. The fact that the two coils are largely orthogonal, speaks to this.

It's a real challenge indeed!

.99

Grumpy · 2010.01.08, 04:17:18

Quote from: poynt99 on 2010.01.08, 03:30:55
SM's device is not a conventional transformer, and little to no conventional induction is expected.

If it works, something quite different is occurring, and we can't use conventional testing to vet it's usefulness as a translation device. The fact that the two coils are largely orthogonal, speaks to this.

It's a real challenge indeed!

.99

source and sink, Poynt, source and sink

you don;t have to collect with a coil, but you do need both ends of the current loop (load circuit) - which can be shorted through the source to sink region. One end won;t work and I have not figured out why. Got some ideas to verify.

wattsup · 2010.01.08, 04:38:38

Hi guys;

The only real thing I found from @agentgates build is the way the primary is wound like Rodins method in a continuous turning and small offset then continue turning, etc. I have tested this in the FTPU outer wind with a thick 2 1/4 turn loop having a thin wire primary wound over it going around twice then I tested this compared to my previous builds. My best build was going with a 1.5vdc 10%duty pulse and I could build up 7 volts in my cap tank with my LED brightly lit. Testing the Rodin style primary gave around 2.4 volt in the cap tank with the LED dimly lit. So at this stage I do not see the advantage in my view.

I do not think there is a relation between his build and the TPUs. His driving voltages are far greater then what could be harbored in the TPU as start up power. My personal goal is a feed of 1.5 volts to obtain 60 volts as shown in SM FTPU video. This is where I will be happy. So for me right now I have delimited my goals and have been testing many methods but so far nothing concrete enough to write home about.

But what is pissing me off with @agentgates is simply the changing of builds, adding this and that, changing wind angles, etc. This flies in the face of the main reason he wrote to @stefan about his first build, or maybe not his first, but the build that was the reason for all this hooplah. I posted something to that effect on the OU thread.

Th Rodin style coil winding definitely has some advantages but one has to learn and test and test many secondary winds to capitalize on the method. Rodins coil enables you to turn around the armature the amount of wind turns per one pulse, whereas general coils wound over whatever will make one complete turn per pulse. There is definitely a plus there, but using the regular winds of the FTPU on some previous tests showed about the same thing where the pulse is turning in circles so much faster then the actual pulsing frequency when you consider my scope can go as high as 60mhz and even then, I cannot stabilize the waveform because it is moving much faster while I am only pulsing at a fraction of that.

Anyways, we will see how this one goes.

Farrah Day · 2010.01.08, 09:03:31

I must say I'm on the fence with this at present. There are good arguments for why it might and might not work. What we already know being the argument for why it won't work - a sprinkling of the unknown being why it might work.

It's nice to see both sides of the coin being openly debated here, with none of the 'Naysayer' prejudice that manifests itself so blatently on Hartmanns site.

At the end of the day, any scepticism on my part is tempered by the fact that I really want this to work. So I prefer at this stage to look for 'unknown' reasons why it might work, rather than 'known' reasons it won't work.

He keeps talking about electron acceleration, and I can see how the rotating magnetic field of the much longer primary might effectively increase the voltage in the secondary, but the word accelerate surely implies that the secondary voltage would keep on increasing for any given primary voltage... does it not?

I believe that our 240v mains voltage causes electrons to move at around just 3 inches per hour - not exactly blindingly fast - but of course this speed can be increased greatly by VHT pulses.

I'm still puzzled by the 4.75 ohm he mentioned as the resistance of the primary - I mean it can't be much more than a metre length of wire!

poynt99 · 2010.01.08, 12:36:01

There could be 2 or 3 meters of wire there as the primary, but indeed 4.75 Ohms does sound a little high for that short length, even with only 30AWG wire.

You also brought up a point that has bothered me about agentgates' theory, and that is the accelerating electrons. As you say, there are only a couple ways the conduction electrons in a wire can be made to move faster, and it involves high voltage (either pulses or steady-state), and/or fast pulses. With pulses however, the electrons are constantly accelerating and decelerating, and unless the frequency increases or the high voltage increases, the electrons will not continue to accelerate afaik.

I'm also skeptical that he even has any kind of rotation. How has he proven that? WW has indicated that a DC output is a sign of this, but we have not seen any evidence, even of that. We wait patiently for more.

.99

Farrah Day · 2010.01.08, 14:22:30

I do tend to think that AG may be trying to provide explanations to fit what he is seeing rather than provide us with any known facts. Problem here is that a lot of people will hang on his every word without even considering that AG might have gotten the science all wrong in the first place. It will be interesting to see what shows up in other peoples replications.

As for a rotating magnetic field, isn't this present in induction motors? Didn't Tesla rely on a rotating magnetic field in his induction motors, and aren't all induction motors today based on this phenomenon?

This should all be over quite soon, either because AG provides a fully working demo model... or he realises that he has made a few crucial measurement errors - in which case he will quickly dissipate back into the aether from whence he came.

Allcanadian · 2010.01.08, 17:44:16

@FarrahDay

QuoteAt the end of the day, any scepticism on my part is tempered by the fact that I really want this to work. So I prefer at this stage to look for 'unknown' reasons why it might work, rather than 'known' reasons it won't work.

I would agree completely, I am as big a skeptic as anyone however I will not let that cloud my judgement as to what may be possible despite what I know. When we think about it the addmission that something is impossible is not unlike a declaration that we know everything there is to know because the term "impossible" is infinite, that is it has no time frame. If we declare something impossible it must remain impossible 1 day for now as well as 1,000,000 years from now, not only have we declared that we must know everything there is to know in the universe but we have also stated we can predict the future for an infinite time frame, for me the word delusion and egotism come to mind when persons state catagorically that something is impossible because in fact we do not know and we never can realistically.

QuoteAs for a rotating magnetic field, isn't this present in induction motors? Didn't Tesla rely on a rotating magnetic field in his induction motors, and aren't all induction motors today based on this phenomenon?

I cannot say for sure because I do not know what this AG circuit is doing but most all induction motors utilize a rotating field but this field alternates sequentially giving the appearance of rotation. That is the coils turn on and off switching polarity thus the field in one section is not the same field in another as such there can be no true rotation of a field only a poor simulation of it not unlike flashing christmas lights giving the appearance of unidirectional motion. A true field rotation would imply the motion is continuous or uninterrupted although the magnitude and rate of change may vary in any part of it.
Regards
AC

Farrah Day · 2010.01.08, 18:11:17

QuoteI cannot say for sure because I do not know what this AG circuit is doing but most all induction motors utilize a rotating field but this field alternates sequentially giving the appearance of rotation. That is the coils turn on and off switching polarity thus the field in one section is not the same field in another as such there can be no true rotation of a field only a poor simulation of it not unlike flashing christmas lights giving the appearance of unidirectional motion. A true field rotation would imply the motion is continuous or uninterrupted although the magnitude and rate of change may vary in any part of it.

I see what you're saying AC. In this respect, Bob Boyce's toroidal set up utilising a toroid former completely encompassed by a secondary winding, onto which 3 primarys are coiled in 120 degree segments, most closely resembles a no-moving part Tesla induction motor.

Perhaps AG's can more closely be likened to a Rodin coil. Whatever, it will be interesting to see just where this goes.

BEP · 2010.01.08, 18:23:45

On the RMF AC is completely correct.

It should also be understood that a field is only a measurement of something. At least, that is my definition.

True rotation of this subject can be found in orthagonal antenna dipole sets, as used on satellites. The signal has right or left hand helical polarization. Everything else AFAIK is only an attempt at gaining the results of true rotation.

I too have several problems with AG's practices and build but I would rather let all play out before I throw his attempts away.

Turbo · 2010.01.08, 19:50:09

If that is true, then please explain to me why the magnetic field does not rotate when we spin a magnet on it's own axis....

?

Grumpy · 2010.01.08, 22:11:21

Quote from: Turbo on 2010.01.08, 19:50:09
If that is true, then please explain to me why the magnetic field does not rotate when we spin a magnet on it's own axis....

?

The magnet field does rotate when you spin the magnet on it's axis. It does not appear to rotate since it is homogeneous. rotate it off-center and it becomes inhomogeneous and you can readily see that the magnetic field moves with the magnet. The rules do not change just because you moved the center point.

Turbo · 2010.01.08, 22:18:38

No that is not true.

If that were true i could spin up a magnet high speed on its own axis and just move it slightly from left to right and get MASSIVE induction but it does not......unfortunatly.
So it's something else.

Marco.

BEP · 2010.01.08, 23:34:36

When you spin an apple is the red color spinning with it? No.
Same for a magnet and the flux focused into what we call a field. A magnet is hardly different from a lense.
Common methods cannot rotate magnetic flux around the polar axis of a magnet.
Let's not forget that there are two vectors involved(classic statement to avoid flames).
While it remains completely impossible to build an RMF all is required is for that flux to rotate and travel in the eyes of the conductor.

There I spilled the beans.

Now all you need to do is create that action at the right helical pitch and speed.

The damned electrons don't need to move at c but the group velocity must.

Now, if you have a little expertise with 'exotic' coils and really understood the magnetic around a wire you should be able to make a little DC.

Sorry for the rant. It is friday night and I'm stuck in traffic a long way from home

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