Romerouk's Muller Replication

[MileHigh]

Howza bout this:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/themes/fake-pm.htm

Electromagnetic boost.

Roger Wayne Andrews obtained in 1974 Patent #3783550 for a "Novelty Electric Motor". This patent covered a variety of toys that sustained motion for days with no apparent source of energy. They all had hidden batteries (usualy 9 volt) connected to a transistor and a tapped electromagnet coil. The first one marketed was called Top Mystery manufactured by the Andrews Mfg. Company and sold by the Johnson Smith Company (of Whoopie Cushion fame). It consisted of a simple plastic base on which a small top (22) was set spinning on a concave surface. The top enclosed a hidden electromagnet. As spinning tops will, it wandered around the slightly concave surface, but when it got near the center (lowest point) its magnet was close enough to the coil (16) to induce a current in it, and a portion of the tapped coil supplied a potential to the base of a transister (20), large enough to trigger it into the transistor's "on" state, allowing the battery (18) to send current through the entire coil, and its magnetic field gave the spinning magnet a slight boost, hardly noticable. The transistor acts as an electronic switch. To further misdirect observers, a small bump (12') in the concave surface causes the spinner to deflect toward the outer rim of the device. The resulting spinner path could be quite complex and apparently unpredictable.

Notice how simple the self-triggering circuit is.  That's what I called the "autotransformer" triggering method.  As easy as pie!

[muDped]

...

Seems that this [the Wee Motor/Genny]has Peaked the interest of a few "builders" here?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11320.msg298633#new

Comments about "hows He Do That"
Piezo crystal, gyroscopic, polarity flippin, Nasa Funded ,Flavour Shavers...........

Chet

The motor looks as if it is one of those surplus CD/DVD
drivers with the long shaft.  They're very efficient and
capable of high rpms.  Input power is DC.

The pickup coils are very loosely coupled to whatever
alternating/undulating magnetic field which may be
influencing them.  Perhaps the tiny motor?

The flywheel has a considerably larger diameter than
the motor so there is a potential mechanical advantage
there.  Once it's wound up it will probably free-wheel
for a surprisingly long time

I believe it'd be fairly easy to duplicate...

It's an unorthodox variant of the dynamotor.

[MileHigh]

Wattsup:

Since the gen coils are all FWBRed in series pairs, they cannot share anything with other pairs. They can only add their DC outputs. I tried to explain somewhere that putting the top coils in series and the bottom coils in series would create some major havoc (call it sharing havoc) that would be interesting to experiment with but no one has talked about this thus far.

The coils share the mechanical energy that's coming from the spinning rotor.  That's the source energy.  On the other hand, you are talking about the outputs from the pick-up coils.

Going back to that autortransformer self-triggering circuit, you can see how if you made something larger in size typical to what people build around here you could make an amazingly convincing fake.  It would run for hours and hours no problem with no visible wires and it would be very easy to fake larger cores that were actually cylindrical lithium-ion batteries hidden inside a metal tube form.  All that you have to do is experiment and figure out where to tap into your coil to turn on the transistor to make the rotor turn at the speed you want.  The visible wires on the motor would be for a fake triggering circuit.  It would be a really big sheww.

MileHigh

[Cheappower2012]

I went back and viewed the video again when he first started the device
spinning with the dremel tool
the cylinder that looks like a battery fell out,then the device came to a stop real quick

indicating that milehigh is right,it is being aided.I have some chokes that look like the
chokes in the video.
Picture one ,shows the choke apart,the bottom part can be hollowed out with a dremel tool,
to hold parts
like a transistor,hall effect ic,ect.Picture 2 shows my pole identifier,it has a hall sensor
at the tip,the core conducts the flux
from the small magnets.It is possible that theres a hall sensor glued against the bottom of the
core,inside the base,he uses two windings
one for pickup and one that when the magnet reaches TDC the hall sensor fires a pulse that
gives it a small push.I didn't have any hall sensors to use,it takes a strong magnet field to
turn on the hall device a weak energized coil would not.This is just a theory so you can kick it around
maybe true maybe not.

[MileHigh]

Cheappower2012:

Do you see the two schematic diagrams in the graphic of my reply #923?  You don't need a Hall sensor, the coil itself is the sensor that is used to switch on the transistor.  It is as simple as you can possibly get, a battery, a coil, and a transistor.

So a cylindrical battery disguised to look like a core with a coil around it can be made into a self-contained self-triggering device that pushes on the rotor to keep it turning.

MileHigh

[wattsup]

I went back and viewed the video again when he first started the device
spinning with the dremel tool
the cylinder that looks like a battery fell out,then the device came to a stop real quick
indicating that milehigh is right,it is being aided.I have some chokes that look like the
chokes in the video.
Picture one ,shows the choke apart,the bottom part can be hollowed out with a dremel tool,
to hold parts
like a transistor,hall effect ic,ect.Picture 2 shows my pole identifier,it has a hall sensor
at the tip,the core conducts the flux
from the small magnets.It is possible that theres a hall sensor glued against the bottom of the
core,inside the base,he uses two windings
one for pickup and one that when the magnet reaches TDC the hall sensor fires a pulse that
gives it a small push.I didn't have any hall sensors to use,it takes a strong magnet field to
turn on the hall device a weak energized coil would not.This is just a theory so you can kick it around
maybe true maybe not.

When the cylinder fell out it rolled behind the battery holding springs he first stopped the rotor with his fingers before fiddling around to pick up the cylinder. The rotor did not stop on its own. You can see the volt meter reading decreasing from 32.4vdc in about a 1/2 volt increments.

The cylinder seems to look like a neo magnet holding a first button battery that then holds another neo magnet that holds another button battery. Since the neos have a conductive coating, they are perfect to hold the two batteries while providing continuity. (see image)

When he put the neo/bat back and again spinned the rotor with the dremel bit, the voltage shot up to 147 vdc and when the dremel was removed the voltage fell in 2 volt increments down to 68.6 vdc. By the time he finished checking the rpm with his hall sensor the voltage was now 68.1 vdc. When he removed the meter clips to check an AA battery, voltage was at 67.9 vdc. By the time he put back the volt meter clips back onto the output cap, voltage was now at 66.2 vdc. When he finally removed the meter clips voltage was down to 64.9 vdc. So there is a gradual decrease in output that would be indicative of a slow battery depletion.

Anyways, I like the idea of using that flywheel inertia storage but how to explain the voltage levels. I think he is basically confirming what I recommended to guys with Romero wheels to try and test by connecting all the top gen coils in series and bottom coils in series to create some major AC havoc that the fwbr will regulate to high voltage dc and stabilize off the capacitor. In this small build the two coils are on the same plate, offset by 180 degrees but I think there is a few degrees off perfect alignment so there are two coils with an AC off phase creating voltage spikes.

So at this stage, I could not say this is perpetual motion. But I like his really nifty build.

wattsup

PS: No I ain't gonna spend another lifetime on this.

[Cheappower2012]

@milehigh,My reservation would be the timing,its one thing if used in a toy that moves
at a slow speed,another that is moving at high speed.You still could be right
its simple and does not require a lot.


@wattsup,my mistake ,when he kicks out the battery at the end,also during the video
when he moves it by hand you can get an idea of the resistance caused by the
attraction of the magnets.
This would come to a fast stop without a source of power,batteries.Main
thing its a fake.

[EMdevices]

DeepCut,  thanks for contacting the guy.  Keep us posted.


@All,

I've looked at the videos closely and took snapshots and I'm starting to believe there are no transistors or reed switches or any commutation brushes, contacts or anything of this sort.   I also refined the translation of what he says and it's quite revealing:


Este motor funciona a partir de un campo electromagnético auto inducido a partir de bobinas que repelen al rotor conformado por un imán y un volante inferior con dos pesos para crear inercia. Como fuente de potencia inicial se conecta una bateria que entrega 2.4 volts que convierte las bobinas en electro imanes y al girar en las bobinas se induce a su ves una corriente alterna en el bobinado secundario de cada bobina llevando esta corriente alterna a diodos que la rectifican en corriente continua pulsante, se conecta un condesador para estabilizar la corriente obteniendo mas de 60 volts de potencia como resultado. Las bobinas funcionan como inductancias y como transformadores a su ves.
Cada bobina tiene un doble hilo de alambre, el consumo del motor es de 100 mha. la velocidad de giro es aproximadamente de 7000 rpm.

Translation using google:  (and edited by me after careful study and research)


This motor operates from the self-induced magnetic field of the coils that repel the rotor, which consists of a magnet [in the top part of rotor] and a lower wheel with two weights for creating inertia.  As initial power source, a battery is connected that delivers 2.4 volts, which converts the coils into electromagnets, and while rotating,  in the coils is induced in turn an alternating current in the secondary winding of each coil, and carrying this alternating current to the diodes which rectify it into pulsing DC current; a capacitor is connected to stabilize this current [or to smooth it out] and 60 volts of power is obtained as a result. The coils act as inductors and as transformers in turn.
Each coil has a double strand of wire, motor consumption is 100 ma. the speed is about 7000 rpm.

EM

[wattsup]

@all

OK, regarding the small two coil motor, so we do not spend an eternity on this trying to tout it as OU, and since the builder has not come forward, I had a last look at that video and have found one peculiar aspect and that is the electrolytic capacitor is not the same in both halves of his video.

One the first half, his capacitor is longer and seems to have a second part to it even though it is encased in the outer coating, it looks like he added two small batteries at the top end. This video half he does not show he is adding any battery but he pretends he is charging the cap.

On the second half of the video, he does add his magnet/battery and the capacitor is much smaller.

See images below.

This video was a good trick. It still remains that producing 60-70vdc is interesting and I am sure it is because he is producing rectified output from two out of phased AC. The voltage drops within a short time frame so the small button batteries are not lasting that long. He says each coil is two coils. On each coil, one wind must be shorted with the other coil wind in series for acceleration mode (this proves cascading coil mode) and the other wind in each coil is the generator for production mode. But the whole device winds up working like a step up transformer.

Maybe someone should open up a new thread for this device.

wattsup

[EMdevices]

Wattsup,

Why are you posting crappy fuzzy low resolution photos?   LOL  

Come on dude, didn't you see the links to the original videos in the comments section at YouTube?  

Go check it out, they are much better resolution.


Regarding the 60 volts plus that are created on the output.   This voltage seems a bit too high to be generated by induction alone.  I think it's more probable it is created from collapsing magnetic fields, or kickback, but where is the switching?  If there is no switching, than I guess he has many many turns of wire in there and a good strong magnet on the rotor to induce those high voltage levels


EM

PS  I added the picture, and we can clearly trace the wires.  He is using 4 diodes as a full wave bridge rectifier (FWBR).

And by the way,  good point about the charging up of the motor condenser in the first video,  it would discharge faster than you can blink if it was connected to the coils directly.  So right after he disconnects the battery pack from the capacitor, it would be discharged before he would have a chance to use the dremell tool to speed it up.   So there has to be a switch mechanism somewhere that keeps the coils open as he charges up the capacitor, and that's what bothers me the most about this video.   How is he switching the coils to make the motor run?   Is there a hidden transistor, or a reed switch?  Somebody please email this guy and ask him straight up, maybe he will answer.

[EMdevices]

The answer to this mystery is in the title of the video:

Motor de auto inducción y rotación por inercia


Translation:  

Auto induction motor and rotation due to inertia.



The second part is key,  the rotation is due to INERTIA.    Those dremell tools can be set to various RPMs like: 15000, 7000, 5000, etc, and he just speeds up this thing very fast and the inertia of the lower wheel keeps it going.   This is energy storage in a flywheel, and the energy comes from the dremell tool.   The battery or capacitor at the bottom is a DIVERSION.   It accomplishes nothing.  The speed also decreases slowly indicative of energy depletion by friction.  

Bottom line:   THIS IS NOT A MOTOR JUST A FLYWHEEL AND GENERATING COILS.  



EM



PS,   There is another possibility for the bottom battery, it might not be a useless diversion.  It is used to energize the coils and create a magnetic field so the rotor can change the inductance.   Which means the rotor is not really a magnet but an iron bar, else you wouldn't need a battery at all.   Looking at the rotor, it is probably pulled from an AC motor that depended on rotating magnetic fields, and has no magnets on it just steel laminations.   So this explains why you need to have the coil energized first, else the flywheel can't output it's energy since there are no magnetic fields to work with.   

[wattsup]

@EM

I just followed a link on this thread to the video on youtube and figured that was it. But when I saw the quality of your pictures, I wondered, how did you get it so clear?

I just went back to the same youtube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gECwKzRw-gs
and the video is now by invitation only. lol
Lucky I already have the converted avi but now you are saying there is a better quality video. Where oh where?

wattsup

[PhysicsProf]

  Lidmotor has done an attempt at a replication of this little spinning device -- interesting work and commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZEJnqZo8pU&feature=uploademail

[EMdevices]

@ wattsup,

I just tried to go see the videos on YouTube and they are removed.   I do have backups.  That original low resolution video had 2 links to the original videos in the comments section.  But now I can't find these originals either.    The text I translated came from the second original video.  

Oh well, it must have been "REAL"  if he removed it.    


@ Professor,
thanks for the link.  I like Lidmotors videos, he explains everything he does.


EM


PS.    Here's another picture of this tiny dynamo, and I drew a schematic of the wiring, the best to my knowledge and what the guy says about it.  Very simple.

[wattsup]

@EM

Thanks for the diagram.

OK, here is a switching theory in a very crude explanation. lol

One coil of the pairs are in series and basically creating a semi-short across the battery which is rather energy consuming. Usually when you short a battery, the voltage drops to 0. Then you have the diodes in the fwbr that forward at .7 volts. As the rotor turns and the weak field is in front of the coils, voltage drops below .7. As the rotor turns the fields to the coils, voltage increases and the diode forwards, bleeding off the produced energy. Then the rotor to coils is in no field again, voltage drops again and the diodes close again. That simple on/off fluctuation in the diodes is the switching and I would say that the timing is random but happens often enough to hit the rotor magnet enough times at the right interval to keep it turning. The switching is not directly switching of input energy but indirect depletion of output energy.

You would need to scope the motor as it is turning to see this.

wattsup

[EMdevices]

The answer to this mystery is in the title of the video:

Motor de auto inducción y rotación por inercia


Translation:  

Auto induction motor and rotation due to inertia.



The second part is key,  the rotation is due to INERTIA.    Those dremell tools can be set to various RPMs like: 15000, 7000, 5000, etc, and he just speeds up this thing very fast and the inertia of the lower wheel keeps it going.   This is energy storage in a flywheel, and the energy comes from the dremell tool.   The battery or capacitor at the bottom is a DIVERSION.   It accomplishes nothing.  The speed also decreases slowly indicative of energy depletion by friction.  

Bottom line:   THIS IS NOT A MOTOR JUST A FLYWHEEL AND GENERATING COILS.  



EM



PS,   There is another possibility for the bottom battery, it might not be a useless diversion.  It is used to energize the coils and create a magnetic field so the rotor can change the inductance.   Which means the rotor is not really a magnet but an iron bar, else you wouldn't need a battery at all.   Looking at the rotor, it is probably pulled from an AC motor that depended on rotating magnetic fields, and has no magnets on it just steel laminations.   So this explains why you need to have the coil energized first, else the flywheel can't output it's energy since there are no magnetic fields to work with.   

Actually, I believe I'm wrong about this being just an energy storing flywheel.  The reason is because the math does not support it.  This device if not a hoax is quite interesting, and we could be witnessing OU operation.  The LED load is probably 4 or 5 watts, and this along with friction should have stopped it after a few seconds.

[Chet K]

Speaking of OU
ToranaRod suspects the OU beast has appeared................
And he wants to share here,

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-51.html#post155261

Chet

[MileHigh]

Chet:

I suppose that I am feeling somewhat cynical this morning.  I can't make head or tail about what Toranarod is really trying to say.  He says that he is going to post more so perhaps then.

MileHigh

[Cheappower2012]

@ramset
It looks like hes shorting the bridge or causing a large current
to flow at a precise time,where does the signal come from that goes to the gate of the mosfet.
I'm assuming that this is Romerouk's setup that hes using,not the other one.
For Romerouk's device to work the output would have to be short pulses exceeding the normal voltage of the coils.
I'm watching very closely what goes on with Romerouk's device as this relates directly to what I'm doing.

[Chet K]

There are several "magnet" topics here ( chose this one to bump with below info)
I did hear from a wonderful researcher ( Plengo) he shared a useful link ( an actual ( not AI?) you tube experimenter sharing useful methods)
And Plengo is an exceptional research/builder...
Here the link

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SdbjNuh8Tfw

Respectfully submitted
Chet K

[bte]

That's an interesting experiment. I'd like to try it sometime.