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Author Topic: The Small Toroid Discussion  (Read 45489 times)

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Since that winding reverses halfway...

I've always wondered where the evidence was to support that notion. Do you have any?

I've examined those toroids quite a bit in the past, and I've never seen evidence of this.

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I don't know how to make it any more clear than the multiple times I've posted the picture with arrows pointing to the reversal.

Maybe once on this forum...

Please see the tag in the lower right corner.

I have no clue why others can't see it.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=355.0;attach=2107;image


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Nope, sorry, don't see it.

I've got lots of CM chokes that look closely like the one shown. The barrier serves the purpose of increasing the dielectric path between the two windings. This would have no purpose if the winding merely reversed.

CM chokes must maintain 1500 VAC or more dielectric withstand to meet U/L CSA specs.

From a certain angle you can be led to believe the wires reverse and run through the barrier, but the ones I have do not run through the barrier. I believe it is an optical illusion. The wire on the left merely crunches up and runs over the top of the previous wind, then back down into the center of the core.

Additionally in one short clip, as the unit (SM17) is switched off, a spark is seen to jump between the two windings at exactly that point where you say the winding reverses. This video has been posted by cheapower 2012, and by myself.

A spark could not jump between the two winds if this was just a turnaround. Obviously the dielectric withstand was exceeded due to stored core energy, much like an ignition coil..

Further, I have seen those exact chokes in a surplus store in Phila. in the past, many years ago. I can tell you why the Faston lugs are part of the bracket, and construction details that involve the type of bobbin used.

To each his own, believe as you must, you may be right, but maybe not. Each man sees what he wants to see and plots his course accordingly. No need to argue, we just speak our own truth.

I posted this a few years back:
Quote
I have seen this type of common mode choke years ago in at least one of the surplus stores I used to visit. They are pulled from equipment complete with leads and mounting bracket.
I can state with almost certainty that they are common mode chokes (two matched dielectrically isolated windings, 1500 VAC minimun per U/L , CSA for 240 VAC line operation) But in SM's application, I don't believe they were for filtering noise because no other parts of the device are shielded in any way and will radiate beyond belief.
The common mode chokes are potted for two reasons;  to fix the core to the plastic insulating assembly which is part of the white separator and "washer" seen between the core and the mounting plate and to secure the "flying" leadwires, which were part of the assembly. These devices were made for mounting rigidly to the side wall of a chassis when space on the pc board is at a premium. There might be a "PEM" insert or stud on the opposite face of the mounting bracket or the mounting screw taps directly into the center of the plastic insulator. What is being interpreted as mounting feet are male terminals for grounding by solder or "faston" type disconnects.

Better questions to ask are: why would someone nead a toroidal transformer that has tight coupling between 1kHz and 100 kHz, excelllent turns matching and high dielectric withstand? Which of these features are incidental, which are of prime importance?

these are just a few possible reasons, I'm sure others can think of more:.

1. Signals between the windings are in phase and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband.
2. Signals between the windings are inverted and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband
3. One side of the core is pulsed, producing a mirror image inverted pulse on the other winding. These identical opposite phased pulses drive "some other parts of the device".
4. A "fringe field" is produced by "bucking the windings". Possibly this is rotated in some manner.
5. This is a cheap way of getting a pre-wound transformer for an oscillator that can be driven many ways (colpitts, hartley, armstrong, blocking ,etc)
6. It is easily biased or saturated with a small weak magnet.


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I'll agree with the individual paths part.

The jumping spark was inconclusive to me after hours of trying to see what others saw.

I do know exactly what a CM choke is and have worked with many types of delay lines. I have also performed some emergency repairs on our lab air ionizers. Since they have the same coupling ring (with the same 1/4 inch standard grounding tab made of tin coated steel) I made a wild guess thinking the base was the same.
That would mean SM probably made these devices from standard delay lines (no iron cores), glued them to the coupling ring and coated them with an HV coating.

So....

I suppose you folks can't see the counter winding evidence of the output wires of the big TPU. I think someone attached the name of SM17 to it?

If so, please tell me how both ends of the same winding can come from the inside without the winding reversing. This was another observation I made that seems to be foolish to others.

>> I'll take exception to this because I keep forgetting that the majority think the output winding and the collector are one in the same. While attempting to look at it from that view I see where most would think those two heavy wires were the open end of a 'collector' loop. So, you would never recognize them as opposite ends of the counter-wound output winding similar to other TPUs.
<<

ION,

Thanks for the refresh but I recall the post and many others proclaiming the same.

When 'CM choke' is discussed I understand what folks are talking about related to a TPU.

Sorry, I'm not going to call the sky green due to majority opinion.

« Last Edit: 2011-12-22, 02:25:04 by WaveWatcher »


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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When the Tesla coil is in the resonate state the flux is actually getting ripped away from the coil by the intense pressure and connects to a sink. Hence the current flow of the sparks!

Has anybody thought of this? The Flux rips away and reconnects to a suitable sink. The spark trailers are actually conduits of electron flow through the flailing flux lines.
Or is ionization between flux shells?

Put these 2 together...



« Last Edit: 2011-12-22, 16:47:36 by giantkiller »


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tao,

I did exactly what I shouldn't do and said I wouldn't do. I apologize.

Unless you say otherwise I'll remove my comments myself after I have some indication you've had time to read this.

It is very clear that my opinions are based upon a different set of experiences.

Please continue with the start-stop concept but I suggest that you don't waste any money or time on any coils having more than an air/dielectric core and what you call a collector.

Experiment yourself but I'm sure you already know what I'm talking about.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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« Last Edit: 2012-10-13, 22:11:34 by tao »
   
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There are so many clues in the TPU videos, if one has the ability to recognize them.  For example, I noticed the Common Mode Chokes were mentioned and I wanted to jump in and agree with ION.   Personaly I feel that once their operation is understood, the TPU mystery begins to "dissolve" even further.   Ask yourselves, how can the common mode voltage potential be developing?

EM


PS.   The dielectric divider is to prevent voltage breakdown.  The potting we see in the SM chokes prevent vibration and harmonics from occuring, so is there a problem with these? or just handy chokes he had laying around for audio purposes?
   

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EM,

Thanks for your opinion but it is painfully obvious to me that they are not CM chokes. As I stated before - I know how they work. To me, knowing their operation makes it even less likely these devices are filtering devices of any kind.

At the highest level I am talking about frame dragging to make static charge a relative charge in motion.

Tao definitely has a handle on this and may prove me wrong. I don't really care as long as progress is made.

WW


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Quote
or just handy chokes he had laying around for audio purposes

I have to agree with all of you, Tao, Ion, EM, and WW. The obvious thorn in the side is the unused bayonet connectors on the chasis. They are not used therefore the whole assembly was cannabalized and left intact except for the wiring itself. This tells me it is a standard or company part that was modded. We have all done this.
So, EM these could be off the shelf chokes from an audio or power system. And Tao, SM [just] used these as is. After all when they first appear they then keep reappearing on further devices. I saw them in the horseshoe model also.

@WW,
It was I who labelled the LTPU with the moniker of SM17. I saw no other labels at the time so took the freedom.


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"Flying leads" potted into the CM core is standard practice when the device is to be chassis mounted rather than PCB mounted. In the US the leads are black and white to reflect the incoming line they are connected to, and to keep the polarity correct. In other countries they may be blue and brown.

In the former case (chassis mount) Faston connectors (spade lugs) are applied to the mounting bracket (chassis ground) which are then routed to the filter board which has the line rated capacitors (type X) and bridge rectifiers etc.

Those of us that have specified and designed these CM chokes into equipment over the years recognize them immediately.

To each his own.


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So the first TPUs that did not have the center toroid item are actually [THE] center toroid item.
The obfuscated is becoming obvious.


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ION,

I respect your experiences on this matter but mine are different. In my opinion, not less than yours, just different.

As an example: Faston is a name known in this area but not used in the description of connectors. We also call an adjustable spanner (wrench) a Crescent wrench. The 'spade lug' you mentioned, at least in my experience, is not a spade anything. The spade terminations are also known as 'split-ring' or 'forked'.
Panduit is big in this area so the common name here is 'slip-on'. The industry name of the terminal on the small toroid is 'blade'.

I've been known to slip-up and incorrectly use the word 'spade' on more than one occasion so all of it works with a little translation.

To the point, I haven't seen any evidence the device could only be a CMC. Quite the contrary.

This has been the subject of several other threads here and elsewhere. In each the group resolution was these are CMCs. In all I've seen not one part number or picture has been provided of a CMC looking like these. My greatest effort relating to the SM device was to locate a choke looking closely like these SM devices.
Since I have access to almost complete part data going back to the mid 40's I should have found something.

Can you produce a part number, manufacturer or image of these lookalike devices?

Be aware that I consider no CMC shown previously as close to this device. The only items looking close enough to be worth considering are passive spiral delay lines and pulse formers. The latter I've thrown out due to the ferrous core.

There can be no place for any metal inside a TPU except for conductors.
If I designed a CMC to filter the output of my device and it let 5kHz hash through I would have been embarrassed.

This, I'm sure of.





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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Hi WW

You are correct about the various terms used to describe the grounding connections. Slip-on is one I also remember, and yes, Faston is a registered trade name that became a generic reference.

You won't find these devices with the flying leads in any catalog as they are special order (lead length, color, guage to be specified etc.) You will find the standard printed circuit mount models with the isolation barrier.

"Flying lead" models require the internal potting as the wires are directly soldered to the ends of the winds, so the potting compound provides mechanical stability and an extra degree of dielectric isolation. This makes perfect sense, four wires, four winding lead ends.

I don't believe they were used as filters, which is the common usage, rather, as tightly coupled matched transformer windings for some other purpose.

We all have different life experience and can agree to disagree, no problem.

I'm glad there are people such as yourself  exploring other possibilities. Until we crack this, none of us are right or wrong.


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This item of reversing the winding at mid point was covered by Wattsup. This is an interesting way to generate a bucking field with one conductor. Or an other configuration for the compwave generation scheme.
« Last Edit: 2011-12-22, 20:34:25 by giantkiller »


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In the picture that GK posted, the wires on the choke appear like a black/white pair.

Perhaps this is his bifilar pair to produce the hv kicks.  Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.
   

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Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.

From the shape and the sharpness of the edges it is either a dielectric, metal core made from coiled banding (this type is always covered with some form of protective insulator wrap or embedded in a plastic casing as in common current transformers) or a coiled/tapered transmission line like design as used in high end passive spiral delay lines.

The blk/wht wires are a very common convention. If I were to build one the way I see it I would have chosen the same colors out of habit without regard for comments on forums or the flying leads common to surface supported CMC.

All really unknown until it contributes to a working TPU.

I should also note that passive delay lines are now commonly potted, including their shorted perpendicular outer winding, due to loose wraps causing distortion in the speaker system. Of course, modern TV sets use digital delay where delay is required but earlier ones used un-potted passives.

See my work bench under small toroid for a little more detail


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Frequency equals matter...


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In the picture that GK posted, the wires on the choke appear like a black/white pair.

Perhaps this is his bifilar pair to produce the hv kicks.  Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.

WW had posted previous. It should be put on Wattsup's ftp site.

Also the core does look tapered being thinner in the middle. This would focus the energy at an angle away from the horizontal center but give a cylinder type field in then center. Maybe this is how SM got the field to rotate...


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All,

We should continue any further small toroid discussion elsewhere. I doubt that component is a critical part of tao's thoughts and work under this thread.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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All,

We should continue any further small toroid discussion elsewhere. I doubt that component is a critical part of tao's thoughts and work under this thread.

Agreed. Maybe we can request  a move to your "small toroid" thread? or to TPU  observations thread.


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A place holder for my start of the interruption of tao's thread. I feel we should clean that thread up by moving those posts here.

tao's thread and work is more of a solid base for overall operation while the debate over the small toroid may go on for a long time.

I do wish to continue my workbench thread. Life just doesn't wish to comply.

My argument is pointless until I can share some insights, data and operation. That will require producing more than an opinion.

   


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Keep going guys.

Question: Look at the toroid again. Notice the two wire pairs are of different wire gauge. Why?

The variables are simple.

If the two coils are identical and separate, then the two wire pairs are explained but not their gauge differences.

If the two coils are really one in bucking mode (my opinion since a long time now), then there should only be one wire pair and the second wire pair is not explained, or can be explained by the core having a second internal coil that we do not see. Also, if this is the case, then we can explain that this internal coil is encapsulated by the outer core coating and this then explains why the outer coil wires are seen sort of embedded in the encapsulating material under it.

Man, we iz go'in back some years now. But keep it up guys because your combined experience base may just crack this one big mystery.

Other factors to consider about the Toroid Coil (TC).

FTPU  - Had this TC.
OTPU - Had this TC.
STPU - Don't know but I can tell you the STPU center opening was not open at all or see through as we would think. The bottom part of the STPU was fully closed as this is evidenced when he lifted the STPU there was no change in the darkness of the center hole and SM made a conscious effort to not show the center during all his handling manoeuvrings.
6TPU - The TC is hidden vertically on one side of the 6TPU.
MTPU - Had one TC as connected on the FTPU.
LTPU - Had two TCs but this time they were connected in parallel.

wattsup





« Last Edit: 2011-12-26, 02:39:30 by wattsup »


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Could Sm have achieved a specific time delay by the difference in the wire gauges?


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Could Sm have achieved a specific time delay by the difference in the wire gauges?

GK,

Changes in wire size would have very little effect upon delay times in a passive delay.

Please note: If the typical shorted winding is used it isn't likely the outer winding (the one I see as being reversed half way around). That outer winding, reversed or not, is not something you see on passive spiral delays. I believe it was added to increase the delay times. I planned to cover this method on my demonstration of making low inductance loops, without capacitors, resonate at frequencies magnitudes lower than calculated values.
« Last Edit: 2011-12-27, 14:19:26 by WaveWatcher »


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Are you saying WW that the toroid is a delay line and that there are more windings (orthogonal perhaps) under the ones we can see?

.99


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