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Author Topic: The Small Toroid Discussion  (Read 46175 times)

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Are you saying WW that the toroid is a delay line and that there are more windings (orthogonal perhaps) under the ones we can see?

.99

That is my belief. Furthermore, I believe the 'core' is actually a two conductor tapered strip, the conductors separated by a dielectric film and coiled into a toroidal shape. This is typical of spiral passive delay lines, except for the taper.

I've built a few such devices with good delay results. The over-wrap winding reduces the resonant frequency, apparently in the same way as my earlier experiments in reducing resonant frequencies of planar coils with segmented, alternating over-wrap windings.



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
This style (see attached), the convoluted spiral, or something else?


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.99,

That is an excellent piece of reference material but uses a mechanical effect as the source for much of the delay. Don't throw it out. I think the method used there may be another or the one method used in a TPU for delay and perhaps more.

Using such a delay line may be a good explanation for the sonic level velocities many suspect in a TPU.

I doubt the small toroid uses such a delay line but it is a possibility.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the attached or a combination of both.



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I checked on your bench to see if you posted the patent number for that second picture. I didn't see any references, do you have one?

.99


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The second pic on my last post with attachments is an example of methods to cancel noise induced into passive delay lines during earlier color TV development.

Spiral passives were used and replaced with linear designs somewhere in the late 60's (according to an old TV engineer friend of mine - now passed on).

At the same time there were color TV's shipped with the new idea of switched-mode power supplies. They generated an incredibly powerful magnetic field which induced current into a number of circuits within the TV. In the worst case, there were a few that replaced the yoke coil with a toroidal design. Between the SMPS and the toroidal yoke there were two nasty internal magnetic fields. One just below 16kHz and another at just over 35kHz.

Patent 4160962 confirmed much of what my old friend shared with me. It may be a good idea to look at the patents listed as reference.

At a minimum the information was interesting to me.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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A long time ago, I was playing around with a large coil pulsed with HVDC a wanted to raise it up from the table, so I turned a coffee cup over and placed the coil on the flat base of the cup (white ceramic).  This had two effects.  The slight pulsing feeling from the coil to my hand slowed down somewhat, and touching the cup itself would give a strong, painful shock.  Touching the coil gives only mild discomfort, regardless of the cup.

What if the toroid core is a dielectric (and it appears that SM always used the same type/size) because adding the dielectric increases the magnitude of the effect produced by the bifilar wires?  Wrap each pair in the same direction and you have a dielectric storing energy produced by both coils.   Recirculating dielectric pump.

First TPU had a single toroid and two "layers", and low output.   SM17 had two toroids, so, perhaps four quadrants for rotation.

   

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Grumpy,

Think "Vector Inversion Generator", "Pulse Forming Network" or "Spiral Pulse Generator".

The latter might be considered a Tesla invention.

I used three VIG's on my EMP toy. None of them like any metal near them - unless you are actually trying to change an operational parameter. All of them are most easily built using twin-lead wire. When doing so, stranded wire works best. No ferrous cores are required and actually screw up the performance. All act as delay lines and/or pulse compressors.

Yes, the dielectric plays a huge roll in the operation of any of the above.

The next question might be.... what roll would something like this play in a TPU?

My answer would be.... I don't have a clue, yet  ;)


EDIT>>>

BTW: Signals with little to no noise always seemed to be part of the story.

There are variations to the common spiral delay line/pulse generator which can cure the most common issue... triangle output wave with almost any input.

You may Google 'Fast Rise Time' in addition to one of the three devices mentioned above. There is information on how to make the output square wave. And I do mean 'Square'. The wave forming is done by the lumped circuit so there are no switching transients inherent with solid-state switches.

I used fist-sized IGBT's to fire my VIGs. Their output was horrible and pulse widths were sloppy around 50ms.

The same pulses came out of the VIG perfectly square, single digit ns width and no visible switching transients with a 500mHz 1gHz scope. ( I forgot. I modified the scope.)

The VIGs sequentially dumped into the EMP coil arrangement through spark gaps. Nothing else lasted.

Maybe now folks can see why I have a different take on the subject  :)


« Last Edit: 2011-12-27, 23:34:38 by WaveWatcher »


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Frequency equals matter...


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The center toroids on all the TPUs are the same thing. SM even left them mounted to the base with the + & - spade connectors in place. And he never connected anything to the spade connectors. Seems to me he had an inventory from somewhere. Either bad or social(He got his employer to build to spec for his purposes) engineered R&D inventory or off the shelf.


What if the toroid core is a dielectric (and it appears that SM always used the same type/size) because adding the dielectric increases the magnitude of the effect produced by the bifilar wires?  Wrap each pair in the same direction and you have a dielectric storing energy produced by both coils.   Recirculating dielectric pump.

First TPU had a single toroid and two "layers", and low output.   SM17 had two toroids, so, perhaps four quadrants for rotation.




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tExB=qr
I've never seen a toroidal coil potted like the ones in SM's TPU's.  I have one picture that looks like a potting material was poured in the center and filled the toroid to the very top so that it covered the wires  at the top of the core.

   

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The Rob Roy filler I mentioned in an earlier post covers best if you mix it to the consistency of dairy cream. It is really the same as extremely fine ceramic grout.

There can't be many reasons for using such a mess. I would say the main reason was probably because of high voltage. The second is probably to prevent relative motion.

I've seen plenty of toroidal chokes and transformers potted. None with this white stuff. The only memories of similar looking devices were of lamp igniters for HD lamps and an unrelated device that always sparks controversy  :D


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
I've never seen a toroidal coil potted like the ones in SM's TPU's.  I have one picture that looks like a potting material was poured in the center and filled the toroid to the very top so that it covered the wires  at the top of the core.



If it was poured then we wouldn't see the wire bulging out at the half way mark.
I have always been intrigued by this device. Nonstandard but standard.

It is like one was handwound over plastic then coated but wiped down. The remove the wire and cast a mold over the core. This lets the producer inject mold a core of plastic for as many as he needs. This then becomes a guide to wire on and never missing a beat. As to the way its mounted is another  story.

I still contend its an audio component of some driver configuration of Spherics audio, where he worked.

So i search...
I find this beauty:
http://www.ferroxcube.com/appl/info/class%20D%20audio%20amplifier.pdf

Are we getting slapped in the face and don't know it?
Last page: http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Overunity.com%20-%20Forum%20members/poynt99/Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.4.pdf
« Last Edit: 2011-12-28, 19:45:23 by giantkiller »


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GK,

I have serious doubts the small toroid is similar to those shown in your post or that fine document .99 created.

You may be correct about these devices being or designed from audio components. The ESL speaker system uses spiral delay lines.

As for ferrous cores, ferrous cored devices have the speed limitations of the core's hysteresis curve. While more energy can be stored and released from a ferrous cored coil the pulse compression will be less and Barkhausen jumps add noise to the signal.

This is why high-end crossover coils are air cored.

I don't see any of that previous work as a slap in the face. The basic premise follows what I think. If these thoughts are correct the TPU's with only one small toroid or winding equivalent operated with one injection frequency being split into two channels, one not delayed and the other delayed.
Then the TPU's with two small toroids either had one frequency split three ways ( 2 channels delayed, one not )  or 2 frequencies each having a second delayed channel.

The latter would make sense on later TPU's since each set could be used to generate one rotation. SM did say something about rotating two ways, didn't he?



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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It's turtles all the way down
If you search the following: toroid, CM choke, flying leads, potted, you will find a lot of manufacturers that will build to this spec, as it is claimed in their literature. Browse the attached pdf's. I had more info but can't locate it right now.

 Somewhere in files I have catalogs of bobbin manufacturers that show a simple mount for a CM choke somewhat similar to the one we see.

Note that a CM choke can be used in audio to null out HF stuff from each channel before feeding to a dual voice coil woofer. This would be handy in early subwoofer applications. Nowadays they are all mostly active with built in amps and filters.

Maybe this will help:


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Imagine the leads on this one soldered to the flying leads, then folded up through the center, then potting added for stability.


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If you search the following: toroid, CM choke, flying leads, potted, you will find a lot of manufacturers that will build to this spec, as it is claimed in their literature. Browse the attached pdf's. I had more info but can't locate it right now.

 Somewhere in files I have catalogs of bobbin manufacturers that show a simple mount for a CM choke somewhat similar to the one we see.

Thanks ION.

If you ever locate the one you say is similar I would appreciate the info.

I'm sure I've performed the suggested search multiple times using the web including PartMiner, MilPart Search, etc. The closest resemblance I've found are types used in aerospace, electronic warfare and HID ignition circuits. Only a few had the sharp edges and these were air-cored delay lines.

I found some in the MIL search having the counter outer winding with no explanation for it but these had two planar coils separated by a dielectric layer where we would assume the core was. They were part of a wide-band 35kW jamming device.

Another very odd one was actually a triode tube, 2 leads for the filament, 1 for the grid and 1 for the plate. The outer windings turned out to be cooling fins as part of the toroidal cavity.

This search has led me to some strange places  :)


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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A while back I found a core very similar to the TPU ones, with those sharp edges, and the right ratio of r1/r2 for the two radii, and the height was the same as well, from what I could tell.   The toroid was formed by coiling up a strip of ferromagnetic material.   I'll have to search for that company again.   
   

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I appreciate the attempts to correct my line of thought  :)

It seems many of you may think that I'm just not very familiar with the many types and uses of toroidal cores. Please believe me when I say... Nothing posted by others in this regard is new to me and in most cases I have one or more in my junk boxes or part shelves at my home bench. In almost all cases of devices posted I have used them in designs or as cross-referenced replacement parts.

EM,

Of the type you just mentioned I'm quite sure I have a dozen or more of various sizes and designs. I just don't see any valued purpose for a ferrous cored toroid wired to the devices shown. Use as a CMC is incredibly unlikely, IMO. Use as a coupling device is a little more possible but I think not in the way others may.

I really don't think a CMC or a transformer is required or appropriate in a TPU except possibly as parts of a governor circuit. If they are used in such a circuit their sizes would be very small compared to what we see in the pics.






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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Found this toroidal current transducer here;
http://sentrancorp.com/

If the outer coil was wound afterwards onto this toroid (look at the white one), then using the bucking wind method would make real sense. Also, if you look at the outer coating being a plastic, this would explain why the outer wind started to embed itself. If this is what SM used then for sure he would not want us to see under the toroid, which we never did. The dimensions of the shown white coil is fairly close to SMs. You will never find a standard ferrite core to come close to SMs toroid dimensions. We had spent months on that off and on during these few years. If SM wanted to use a choke, he could have picked from thousands of standard ones. His toroid was not a standard format. Actually 90% of the OU ability could be right in that toroid if you consider the FTPU did not have anything more then that and a few turns of wire.

The point here is that if the core is a current transducer that usually picks up the energy of a wire going through the center hole, then this indicates the transducer has a good enough sensitivity and should therefore be able to pick up energy from a very low level to a higher level. Low level to enable system start up and higher level to withstand an increase and leveling off of gain. The outer wind would then compound the energy imparted to the current transducer. Can't really know for sure unless it is tried so I will look for a few of these coils and do some tests. I know @GK and I have tried with horizontal windings inside and outer bucking coil but our wire awg was way too low.

The other factor I would like to look at is how to start the whole process. Now to start such a process from a near zero position, this goes above my acumen to identify the right component model but I think all you would need is a transistor and 1, 2 or 3 zener diodes of different values. The transistor would have to have three main attributes;

1) The transistor base would only require the most minimal amount of voltage to start switching, possibly in the mV level.
2) The transistor base would also have to withstand a voltage increase to the lowest value zener diode.
3) The transistor will not require heat sinking. (This may be the 20 minute limit.)

If the TPUs all share the same center toroid, then the only other variable here is the coils in the outer ring that will add more inductive (as well as some capacitive) value to the complete process. If the process ran via feedback coils going to the gate of 1 or 2 alternating transistors working like a virtual Slinky Toy, the outer circumference of the ring would in fact be responsible for the overall working frequency, just as SM had indicated the frequency is a function of the circumference of the ring and this only define length and has nothing to do with a circular length.

So, we again should not be fooled by the actual physical shape of the SM TPU, by thinking that this circular form has any advantage on the overall function. Ether energy should not care about shape. Give it a good reason to come in and give it a good place to land and it will. It always does. We just don't yet know how to play the game to our advantage.

Then I am thinking that If SM made the conscious effort to show the video with his ammeter showing highest readings over the toroids. Now why would he show this and for him, why was this so important to see amperage (current) in them toroids. Well if the toroid was a current transducer, knowing about the current at the toroids would be an important thing to know.

Then consider the center of the toroid is epoxy filled. Well you can make a small circular circuit with one or more transistors and embed them in the center then have those four center wires and bingo. If you knew those two wire pairs had different uses, then this would give you a good reason to vary those wire gauges. Then for the LTPU you parallel two toroids to increase the overall output amperage.

But of course, these are all theories that remain to be tested.

wattsup



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The TPU cores have that high voltage dielectric separator, and to me that is a dead giveaway that it is a common mode choke of sorts, or a transformer with high isolation.

However,  as important as each component's identification is,  the real question is how does the TPU work and get TUNED to the right frequency?  What is the nature of the tank circuit?  Is it acoustic in nature?  Is it an LC tank circuit?  Some of these questions can be answered with the clues we glean from the videos and letters.

In my attempts to understand the TPUs, I usually chase a few theories down, and do a "curve fit" on what I know and can identify and the possible options.    I always try a top down approach, from the general to the specific.   

Don't give up guys, we'll get it eventually.   What has me concerned is the fact that a few of you already had "working" TPUs but you did not know it because you did not have a signal to tune into.

What good is a RADIO without a STATION to listen to?

EM
   

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What i see in the OTPU is a ferrite core inductor under the magnets in each leg, i have posted this a few times previously, if you pulse a ferrite core inductor and compare the results to one with a magnet against the ferrite the results are interesting, the stronger the magnet the squarer the resulting waveform hence the more odd integer harmonics included, they are nothing more than pulse to harmonic generators/filters IMHO

Quote
square waves contain a wide range of harmonics; these can generate electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that interfere with other nearby circuits, causing noise or errors.

Quote
the square wave contains only odd integer harmonics.

Here's my previous post on this, although i previously came to the conclusion it was magnetic rectification, i now know otherwise  ;D
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=38.msg237#msg237
« Last Edit: 2011-12-29, 07:35:53 by Peterae »
   

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tExB=qr
So, is the small toroid located at the input or output of the controller?
   
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What i see in the OTPU is a ferrite core inductor under the magnets in each leg, i have posted this a few times previously, if you pulse a ferrite core inductor and compare the results to one with a magnet against the ferrite the results are interesting, the stronger the magnet the squarer the resulting waveform hence the more odd integer harmonics included, they are nothing more than pulse to harmonic generators/filters IMHO. Here's my previous post on this, although i previously came to the conclusion it was magnetic rectification, i now know otherwise  ;D
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=38.msg237#msg237

@Peterae

Regarding the post you mentioned above, please know that under that magnet, which is on the right hand side of the output speaker terminals, there is NO LEG as we thought for a long time that the OTPU had four legs, but it only really has two legs plus a vertical circuit board that also acts as a leg to hold up the OTPU at three points. The left leg has a removable sheath over it and the hind leg is tapped over to hold it permanently in that position. The fact that the left leg was not tapped over like the hind leg and the fact that the same left leg has a sheath over it indicates to me that SM used it for quick battery placement.

Guys, just think that SM made his devices for 90% deception. The OU aspect of his device is so simple that he had to mask it up with all these peripheral do-dads to take your attention away from what really matters. After all his own livelihood was at stake here. It was so simple that when SM made the STPU, all of a sudden everything was built into a nice compact small toroid looking device although the STPU was not a real toroid in that the center was not open. I mean you can make a very simple working OU device and then adding extra wire lengths to make it look way more complicated then it was is a very easy thing to do and the lengths we are talking about would not make a dent on operational parameters but for the viewer, this makes the device seem much more elaborate then it really is.

He makes the FTPU and says "no electronics". That's easy to say if your electronics are hidden under the center toroid epoxy. He then makes the OTPU and shows this circuit board that he even points to and says something like "control here". Then all of a sudden he makes the STPU that obviously does not have that circuit board but in all builds, he always uses the center toroid.

I think SM found one effect and once you start stripping away all the superfluous things that do not appear in all the TPUs, then you will start to get a clearer picture. The center toroid and some outer winds appear in all the TPUs. With the "squeezing a hose" analogy, we all automatically thought this was relevant to the outer rings that we designated as collector/control coils. But if the center toroid was like I mentioned in my previous post, then that bucking coil pulsing on such a current transducer type coil is exactly that, squeezing a hose.

Lastly is a question of how you would expect to find OU. You can invent and build a completely new set of components that never existed before, or, you can take existing components and use them in totally new or different ways. Either way has the same potential for OU discovery and for me, I think SM found a new way to use existing components. That center toroid is not available as a ferrite core because the dimensions are just way out of what is being produced, even during SMs day in the mid 90s when checking the Radio Shack catalogs of the day, which I did for days and days. There is no ferrite that is manufactured in that format and the reasoning for this is very simply. That much ferrite mass would require a heavily would coil to even start making some type of saturation and the outer toroid winding bucking coil on such a large mass would be like a mouse playing on an elephants back. Or like someone jumping on a concrete trampoline. The bounce will not happen.

Maybe one last thing about frequencies-resonance-coil combos, etc. You can make the most elaborate coil set you want. One primary, splits to two more primaries, that comes back to another primary that splits to three more primaries thus making a very complicated coil set. But regardless of how or how many coils you use, there will always be one frequency that you will find to maximize the inter effects. There will always be a frequency and in that regard, taking a bucking coil and winding it over a current transformer coil is a rather simple pairing of two coils and there will be many frequencies that will maximize their inter-relationships. I think SM found this one source of gain and then played it up to these TPU looking devices so his small secret would stay safe. And, I think the OU is in the toroid and no were else. The outer coil winds are simply adding more inductance to his process hence he is moving around more power as his devices increase in size, but the base method is the same.

Last, last, last thing. OK, the center toroid. try and go back to all the SM analogies and talks and descriptions, etc, etc. Show me one place where SM specifically talks about the center toroid. I cannot think of one occasion. He never mentioned anything about the center toroid. Is that not a little bit like "identification by omission". lol

wattsup



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Buy me some coffee
Hi wattsup
The inductor i speak off is not in the leg it's sandwiched between the top and bottom ring sourounded by magnets.

G
If i am right it would be the harmonic generator, quick pulse one side would give odd harmonics on the output ready to feed to the coils for mixing, why generate 35kHz and the 3rd harmonic using separate electronics if it can be done by a saturated inductor, also it's dead easy to feed the output back to the input, really what i need to do is do the experiment again now i have a spectrum and try feeding it's output back to it's input to see how the spectrum gets affected.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
As for ferrous cores, ferrous cored devices have the speed limitations of the core's hysteresis curve. While more energy can be stored and released from a ferrous cored coil the pulse compression will be less and Barkhausen jumps add noise to the signal.

This is why high-end crossover coils are air cored.

It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.

.99


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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.

.99

Bingo. We don't want saturation. The air core would enable the slinky effect in the outer field while we have a pulsating pressure in the resonate field.
Tesla coils are air core. Like Wattsup alludded to 'the ferrous material would be a sticking place for the energy'.
Quote
The bounce will not happen.

Ferrous would have the field stuck inside with low startup and bounce would never occur outside. The ampmeter in mid air shows this activity outside.

The center toroid cores could be wood with a plastic epoxy casually wiped over the whole assembly. Almost like a wooden lamp section. To this day you can still go to hobby stores and find wooden beads used like this.


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