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Author Topic: The Small Toroid Discussion  (Read 46176 times)

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The toroid's have very square edges, when winding this is not good, if they were made of soft material they would more than likely round in the process or if wood you would think he would have taken the edge off.
If they were premade items and hard like ceramic then he would be stuck with the sharp edges and need to lay a soft layer on top, IE conformal coating of latex.

Ferrite toroid's are pre rounded, but some ceramic toroidal magnets are not
   

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It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.

.99
/

That also. In addition, no iron losses, higher Q (with the right designs) and maybe more. They also have several drawbacks.

It seems that the lack of chance for saturation distortion and good linearity with fewer losses (if the DCR is low enough) would all be good things in a TPU.



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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So, is the small toroid located at the input or output of the controller?

My answer would be - The circuits driving it are fed from the TPU output ( of 2 out of the three collectors, in some cases ) while main output current is fed through the outer reversed winding (self-detuning on overload condition - a TPU should be a constant voltage device - IMO).



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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Hi wattsup
The inductor i speak off is not in the leg it's sandwiched between the top and bottom ring sourounded by magnets.

G
If i am right it would be the harmonic generator, quick pulse one side would give odd harmonics on the output ready to feed to the coils for mixing, why generate 35kHz and the 3rd harmonic using separate electronics if it can be done by a saturated inductor, also it's dead easy to feed the output back to the input, really what i need to do is do the experiment again now i have a spectrum and try feeding it's output back to it's input to see how the spectrum gets affected.

Could the small toroid(s) be just part of a DC-DC converter to convert the output to lower voltage dc that his controller operated on?

I met an old former TV repairman on OU a long time ago.  He claimed that he recognized the pair of toroids and base in the center of SM17 and that it was just an old type of regulator.  Even after repeated asking, he would not elaborate on it more than to repeat that is was just a regulator.
   

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G I have never seen one of these in any of the TVs in the UK and i had been in the game from valve to hybrid up to flat screen, the only thing i will say is that one of the kap devices uses a large coke in the power unit from a TV, pulses are thrown into it and the energy is stored in the choke it then gets filtered and a feedback loop goes back to the driver to adjust the pulse width for the energy demand.

So i guess it could be a power converter yes.

   

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This image is strange i could have sworn i had a picture of the center toroid with spade connections to the center wires, i will try to track it down
   

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Regulator - Power Converter?

Yes. Both plausible.

The outer reversed winding would be ideal to weaken the amount of stored energy and/or modify the delay in the spiral delay -or- just a spiral inductor. This could easily modify pulse width - if a delay line or peak output voltage - if only an inductor.

I'll see how effective both ideas are Asap.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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OK here's my picture, if you look carefully you can see low power spade connectors on the black center wires(maybe just because it's a bit more blurry then i guess, they look like half the width of car spades once used in some TVs.

I dug out a picture of the FTPU core, sure looks like the center portion steps inwards so the wires that go vertical are not touching the center material of the toroid.

Bottom left you can see the manufacturer's mark on the plastic case JC??? then a blob of conformal coating, I wonder why that coating would be there, he would not have wound the coils while on the plastic case, probably gave the round plate a coating and then glued the coil assembly on top
   

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OK here's my picture, if you look carefully you can see low power spade connectors...

'Male Blade' connectors. Notice there are two for each coil. One large and one small. >> This reference is to the base of each coil (as most believe). I'm quite sure those are part of the lab air cleaner. The coils were probably glued to those plates as an afterthought. Normally, such plates are used to connect remote radiator nodes.

>>OOPs! I see what you are talking about - the connections to the wires. To me those look like heat-shrink over soldered connections but whatever works.

Quote
Bottom left you can see the manufacturer's mark on the plastic case JC??? then a blob of conformal coating, I wonder why that coating would be there, he would not have wound the coils while on the plastic case, probably gave the round plate a coating and then glued the coil assembly on top

To me that 'JC???' is just more of the sloppy material drizzled out of place. When you look at the rest of the TPU you will see the same stuff almost everywhere mechanical strength might have been questionable, where wires may have vibrated and perhaps where electrical insulation may have been an issue. That material dries to a fine ceramic (if I am correct about what it is).

Besides, the manufacturer's name is on the label, underneath.  ;) AFAIAC that black box with convection cooling vents is a dual polarity lab air cleaner.  The big polycaps are cobbled to the exposed circuit board (underneath) - probably to solve some EMI issues or improve the feedback supply to the ionizer.

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I checked the regulator idea on one of my VIGs. More later...


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Well, well, well, now let's take a look at the FTPU at the rear side of the center toroid we have these two wires again. The same ones beside the JC.

This is exactly what you would expect if the toroid core was a current transformer, it would have two wires coming out the bottom like in the picture I posted previously.

wattsup



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Wattsup,

Thanks for your work!

I would like two more wires to be found. That would nail it down for me. I need six conductors from this little toroid to help solidify my thoughts on how a complete TPU functions. I suspected those spots were wires back in 2007 but gave up on it since no one else mentioned it. I'm still not convinced they are wires since they have only been publicly suspected as wires - twice now?

BTW: You will never find a CT with such a low secondary turn count.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Luckily, I save almost everything.

I have four separate files of emails, PM's and posts from this person.   He had a great deal of uncanny insight, for a person that just showed up out of the blue and jumped into the TPU swamp.

Here is what he said about the "stuff" in the middle of the  large TPU:

Quote
Well, what I am saying is what I always have been saying,  that just as the inventor says that the signal and the power are the same.
 
To me this means the excitation comes from the signal itself.
You don't have to add any excitation at all.

See all my other posts on this.

This is what makes the device so simple.
 
I wish I had my control engineering books here, but they are in a storage locker in Colorado.
I could scan some control regulator schematics and show you what the inventor is trying to do with the current transformers.
 
He is trying to control the output of his larger unit to maintain a constant output.
Thats what those coils and the electronics do in the middle of the large unit.

I see that this coil regulator control system he has, has caused a lot of confusion.
Many people seem to think this is some kind of excitation set up for the coils.
 
Well it's not. 

I know I won't be able to convince everyone about this, but as an Instrument tech of 35 years, I am betting that from what I see and from the inventors description of the device, that electronic equipment in the middle of the coil is a current regulating controller set up and nothing else.

If others disagree, then I guess we will just disagree and leave it at that.

This current regulating system is, in my opinion, side tracking the real heart of the understanding of the coil (s) themselves.

The coils themselves is where the real story is.

I am trying to help

Now, many years later, I think this old guy was right on the money!

   
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I just got myself two of these here;

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Simpson-Electric-Company-01297-Current-Transformer-/330596583620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf91788c4

So I will start testing soon enough. lol

My target model will be the FTPU to start with. It is not important to have the outer winds on a wire reel.

If the CT (horizontal) and the Bucking Coil (BC) (vertical) can inter-pulse, this would be SMs analogy or question of having a magnetic ball turning in two directions, then he asks what would happen. Well of course, the first would impart to the second and the second would impart to the first.

@WaveWatcher

Well you now have the six wires. Two pairs from the top and 1 pair behind. This will be a major step indeed.

wattsup



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Wattsup,

Next time you feel the need to purchase a CT please just send a PM. My wife is after me to clear out some of my stash. In many cases fellow OUR members could have one for the price of postage.

Since most of the mass is iron the postage may be higher than the part value.



---------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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Wattsup,
Next time you feel the need to purchase a CT please just send a PM. My wife is after me to clear out some of my stash. In many cases fellow OUR members could have one for the price of postage. Since most of the mass is iron the postage may be higher than the part value.

Well, myself I am thinking of "ebaying" (new verb - lol) some of my stuff out of here because space is really becoming a problem.

@GK

I would like to bring back something I was looking at so many months ago that was around the same angle of thought but then the core was not so visualized. The question of SM and sound and speakers. Well he knew speakers very well. He was always looking at these speakers, the voice coils, the speaker magnets and all the other parts of a speaker, he knew them well. Now what if he one day started to think about the speaker magnets, maybe saying to himself that this one component really stinks because it has only one setting. That is, a magnet is a device that only has one output setting. Then taking that further, this speaker magnet would be very interesting if in could vary the magnetism around the voice coil and just keep the voice coil itself at one setting (or even having it as a variable as well). Like reversing the two components' responsibilities. OK, voice coil you get only this and magnet, let's play around with you now. So if a voice coil and a variable magnet are inter-energizing with each other, then maybe that bucking coil can start to really buck out some juice. Maybe while he was investing this type of action, he discovered something else.

So you pulse the CT, but where does the CT pulse come from? It can come from an internal Voice Coil(s) (VC) to gate(s). The CT pulse energizes the core, the core becomes a speaker magnet, the speaker magnet moves the VC, the VC pulses the gate. While this is happening, the  bucking coil picks up output, sends some through the emitter/collector via a zener so the CT pulse has the energy it needs. The whole process is in a loop. Again don't know............yet. But thinking out loud is not bad.

I can only see everyone having a great New Years with great things to come in 2012, in a just and perfect manner.

wattsup


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I recently occurred to me, based on SM's comments and such, that he did not know where the extra energy comes form and thought that his combination of pulses, one delayed, somehow tuned to this magical signal.  Like some sort of hidden signal that can only be tuned to by some indirect means.

Of course, .99 got the spike to show up on a sim, so it's just a spike, and the spike in combination with the rest, makes the magic happen.
   

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Grumpy,

You are the best one to answer this question....

Let us just say for a moment that it was possible to send a pulse down a line. The pulse width and line length are such that you have the opportunity to open the power source switch before the rise of the pulse reaches the end of the line. Of course this would require nanosecond rise time, pulse width, fall time and virtually no ringing.

Would the transmission of that single pulse appear as conventional current or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on that same line?

Then, the same scenario except that single line is now a twin-lead transmission line with both ends in an open state.

Would the transmission of that single pulse on one of the conductors appear as conventional current through that conductor or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on the twin conductor of the transmission line?

I know the reality of both scenarios but I'm speaking of the hypothetical conducting path where the pulse fits easily within the length of travel, no switching transients and no ringing.




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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Frequency equals matter...


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I recently occurred to me, based on SM's comments and such, that he did not know where the extra energy comes form and thought that his combination of pulses, one delayed, somehow tuned to this magical signal.  Like some sort of hidden signal that can only be tuned to by some indirect means.

Of course, .99 got the spike to show up on a sim, so it's just a spike, and the spike in combination with the rest, makes the magic happen.

I have to wholeheartedly agree here. And that thump can be used. It fits in with Wattsup posted prior.

Also,
My motto is 'I get my orders at 2:42am and my ideas when I step into the showers'. Don't know why, it just is.
So today's session was a real mind blower for me.

The spark has always haunted me. Today I did not see it as a conduction path but as a crack or opening in the aether revealing the hidden potential in the vacuum. Sounds like Bearden, i know. But the thought just rang true with all I have consumed of OU. We can cause a high speed potential to split the force that holds atomic structure together to peer into the unlimited energy that keeps the pressure on all that we are. When a wire cuts a flux shell the wire gets current. When a Telsa coil is resonating the flux shells break off and connect to physical conductors letting potentials balance. We get a conduction in space. That is what humans call it for we have a very limited standard of measurement. Outside of that, the spectrum of balance can show us a different view of the reality of matter that is really just another gathering of potential.


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Grumpy,

You are the best one to answer this question....

Let us just say for a moment that it was possible to send a pulse down a line. The pulse width and line length are such that you have the opportunity to open the power source switch before the rise of the pulse reaches the end of the line. Of course this would require nanosecond rise time, pulse width, fall time and virtually no ringing.

Would the transmission of that single pulse appear as conventional current or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on that same line?

Then, the same scenario except that single line is now a twin-lead transmission line with both ends in an open state.

Would the transmission of that single pulse on one of the conductors appear as conventional current through that conductor or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on the twin conductor of the transmission line?

I know the reality of both scenarios but I'm speaking of the hypothetical conducting path where the pulse fits easily within the length of travel, no switching transients and no ringing.

Unfortunately, the direction to "open the switch before the current flows" has permeated the universe without an accompanying explanation for "why".

In your first scenario, the line is closed, the pulse will not manifest as conventional current.  The pulse is a traveling wave of denser medium, which can appear as a change in charge without supplying those charges.  Surface area of the conductor increases the amount of change in charge.   I have not seen ringing or any reflection, but then my scope is 300 MHz, and the wire very long (1300 feet).

In the second scenario, it will reflect at the end of the line and current will flow as it charges the dielectric. I use one of these to shut off my avalanche stack.
   
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Grumpy posted this from an unknown person:

Quote
Well, what I am saying is what I always have been saying,  that just as the inventor says that the signal and the power are the same.
 
To me this means the excitation comes from the signal itself.
You don't have to add any excitation at all.

This is a possibility that should be explored. Is it possible that the right configuration of coils with a slight DC biias nulls out the normal magnetic field of the earth and allows electrons to circulate and wind up out of the thermal noise possibly due to some effect of gravity and the earth spin, quite possibly a coriolis type effect.

Pulsing coils may not be the answer to the "fire that feeds itself". SM alluded to all of this and gave many hints (if we are to believe any of it).

What has always intrigued me is the slow windup time of the TPU's or "turbine effect".  I believe this to be a major clue. Maybe just creating the correct conditions allows the effect to wind up. Preferred pathways  are slowly established in the conductor creating the windup effect. Perhaps similar to the "cup of hot chocolate" effect.



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Unfortunately, the direction to "open the switch before the current flows" has permeated the universe without an accompanying explanation for "why".

I think I know why.

The main difference between the static charge on a conductive surface and a potential permeating a conductor before current flows is motion.

One way to prepare a surface with a charge is electrostatic induction (no magnetism required). I don't recall SM stating you must drag your feet on a carpeted floor to ignite a TPU. This leaves the worst case scenario for Faraday induction - source and target orthogonal to each other. This cancels the magnetic coupling. For maximum effect it also requires that the source be 'many short wires' side by side covering the entire length of the target conductor.

All that, with the shortest pulse possible so energy isn't wasted beyond the outer diameter of the TPU, will only give you a very short lived static charge on the target conductor. This is useless without motion.

It is not possible to rotate a magnetic field about the axis. There would be no point in trying.

I doubt this terminology will suite many but you can cause a charge gradient to rotate. Using familiar terms (for TPU folks).... Raising the hose would be applying a charge to a collector set. Squeezing the hose would be pumping that charge around the collector set.

Thoughts still forming - being thrown out and forming differently. The cycle continues.


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Without motion, you will only get a surface charge effect.  The energy will not soak in and very little current will flow below the surface and this is only diffusion or a reordering of charge.  This is the "charges conductive objects" effect.   Motion itself is not the entire answer, as energy has  a frequency to it.  Umm, not like a carrier frequency but a "variable rate". "Pulsation" is the best term that I can think of.  A very very very high rate of pulsation.  You can pulse coils at any rate and you get a very nice charging effect, but it's not good for much.

Now this is clear a mudd and almost useless.  What the Hell am I talking about?

The energy of a circuit flows into it from the environment around it, then back out at the load.  All of our means of creating the imbalance that allows this to occur require physical work.  We move charges, or other objects.  All that is required though is to imbalance the energy that is already there.  Pulses work in the right scenario, but the pulsation rate imparted to the aether  is very high and has to be slowed way down.  If you slow the pulses down, you don't get the high density.

Every heard of the Joe Cell?  Few have every noticed that it uses the same energy that every electric circuit uses, only it is passive once started.  It collects the energy, the aether, or whatever, and then whe it discharges it implodes the run your engine.  It only sounds like magic, but it has laws and all that like everything else.  A Joe Cell will discharge with a flashless bang when too much "stuff" is accumulated.  Sound familiar?  Quite interesting, but it accumulates too slow to be used as an electrical power source.

   

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Wow!  Thow the Joe Cell into the mix and everyone stops posting!  :D
   

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Wow!  Thow the Joe Cell into the mix and everyone stops posting!  :D

I am familiar with the Joe Cell but it has nothing to do with my apparent silence  :)

My bench hasn't cooled off in the last few days.

With my version of the small toroid I can't understand why we swapped to SS delays & saturated core pulse transformers so soon. I'm using the visible winding as a negative magnetic bias. You can control the pulse compression and delay with DC current applied but it takes a lot of current.

I have more questions now than before.

There may be a way to increase velocity with sine applied to the visible windings.

More checks & facts are needed before I become very talkative  ;)

  


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   

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Just wiped out almost all of my USB gizmos again.

I know how to isolate circuitry. Anybody have some good working tube based test equipment?

Using the high-end Maxim USB isolation scheme did last longer than others  >:(


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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
   
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