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Author Topic: Let's get Slider (aka Mark Vaughan) a nice 4-channel DSO with math functions!  (Read 54907 times)

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I don't mind the "thumbs downs" if the person leaves a comment explaining what they don't like, so that I can improve what I'm doing (or ignore or block the actual trolls). But the "drive bys" with no comment indicate a high level of sheer yellow-bellied cowardice. I even know who leaves them,  most of the time, but without knowing their "current" YT username I can't block them. Oh well...


Meanwhile, back at the ranch... I'm more sure than ever that there is some hardware problem. After a long time of steady running without glitches, I decided to let the scope rest and cool off, so I turned it off and went to sleep for a while. Then up again, turned the scope on, set up the 4-channel Calibrator monitor screen with pass-fail mask, and after about 20 minutes or so it started glitching. I touched nothing. But I noticed some consistency to the behaviour. When it started, the CH4 trace would drift down slowly from its "normal" +300mV or so offset to some negative value, then break up a little bit and snap back up to "normal" . After a few cycles of this, it began glitching really badly. I was able to Stop and capture a screenshot of a glitch. This isn't even nearly as bad as it can get. Then after me changing scale, channel off-on, and lots of other things a few times, including selecting "Auto" setup, the glitches have stopped and it's back to stable (relatively). Warmed up past the "glitch" point? I dunno. It's still doing it but not as badly, just the drift-snapback thing but no breakdown into utter glitchyness.
TK
As bad as it may sound,i would send it back to have repaired or exchanged. Do you really want to put up with that from now on in?.
There is going to be times when you do indeed need the 4 channels,and one is not so happy. Maybe they have a service/repair dealer in your area?.
I would give them a call,and see what they say.


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I keep hovering over the buy button on this scope, It's a bit cheaper in Germany but sill have VAT @ 20% Grrrr
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DS1074Z-S-Digital-Oscilloscope-p/ds1074z-s.htm

Peter,

Do you see any similar irregularities with your new scope?
   

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Hi Matt

No problems with my scope and i have been using all 4 chans, very happy with it but wish i bought a seperate sig gen  O0

Peter
   
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TK
As bad as it may sound,i would send it back to have repaired or exchanged. Do you really want to put up with that from now on in?.
There is going to be times when you do indeed need the 4 channels,and one is not so happy. Maybe they have a service/repair dealer in your area?.
I would give them a call,and see what they say.

Yep, it has to go back. It's weird that the glitching is so intermittent though. Right now it's running nice and stable, whereas a few minutes ago it was glitching almost constantly. I'm testing now with no probes attached, here are two images, one with stable running and the other with a "fail" glitch. These are taken within a couple minutes, first "stable" then "Glitch". But now it has been running for 20 minutes at least without problem. Ah... spoke too soon, it just went off the rails as I was typing that. See image #3 below.....

The Pass-Fail mask function is a really useful feature. You set up a "mask" (the blue areas) around the waveform of interest, then when a "glitch" happens so that the waveform deviates into the mask area, the scope can beep at you and Stop, preserving the glitch on the screen so you can save a screenshot of it.

I've asked Chet to contact TEquipment (since the purchase is on him as "buyer") for a return authorization. No, there aren't any stocking distributors within 400 miles of here and warranty repairs have to go to China, I think. But TEq has a 30-day guarantee so we will be pushing them for a replacement scope ASAP... and hopefully UPS won't lose it.
   
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Woo-hooo! Here's a good one, gives some idea of how bad it can get!

   
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@Slider: Yep, yours looks acceptable, there are some slight offsets but nothing like what I'm seeing on my CH4. I suppose you haven't noticed any glitching at all? Have you left it running for long hours? Mine's been running almost constantly since I unboxed it, the "trial" options ran out long ago. Of course I'm using the keygen to "unlock" its options and 100MHz bandwidth, and have gone back to the "locked" 50 MHz version to check if maybe the unlocking is causing the problem... nope, it glitches anyway even in the original version. 

   
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Or stays up and running for days at a time...     ^-^

I wish I could figure out what triggers the glitching. Just now it's in a long period of stable running, over 36,000 waveforms since last glitch, according to the P/F stats box.

   
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Oh, I agree fully. That's why I'm documenting it so completely. I just shot a 10 minute video that will demonstrate that it's not in my imagination, not the fault of faulty probes, and isn't a result of me doing something I shouldn't be doing. The video will be submitted along with still screenshots as documentation of the glitching.

I've also saved a "setup" or two in the scope's non-volatile memory that will allow the techs to quickly reproduce the exact setups I'm using in the video and the still shots, so all they have to do is load the setup, start the "pass-fail" system and wait.

And I've turned it off and am letting it sit until it's quite cooled off now, then I'll turn it on and repeat the "glitch watch".

I don't think there will be any problem from TEquipment, their 30-day guarantee is pretty solid. But you never can tell....

I'll post a link to the video when it's done uploading. In the 10 minute video it glitches maybe 8 times? I guess I should count them.


ETA: Yes, 8 times in ten minutes, not counting the one that was on-screen at the start of the video.

The video is almost done uploading:
http://youtu.be/7RvcByoEE5o
   
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Tinsel
Very good [Bad actually]....Good Bad :P....

I will speak with their warrantee Dept ASAP.

Manana.

Chet
   
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More info:

From a "cold start" it took 13 minutes for the first glitch to appear. Then periods of glitching, some continuous glitches, etc.
Will still glitch when a probe is connected with probe tip clipped to ground clip, as long as channel input coupling is set to AC or DC coupled. When channel input coupling is set to "ground" no glitches.
When channel 4 is set to 2 V/div or less,  it can go a long long time without glitching. At 5V/div, it will glitch pretty soon. Once it's glitching, setting to 2V/div doesn't stop it, just reduces the amplitude.
Ch4 must be set to 5V/div for the glitches to appear in a reasonable time.

A few recent glitches:
first two are at 5V/div setting
third one at 2V/div setting -- took over 32,890 waveform updates before glitching at this setting

Chet, when you talk to them, please point them to the video, and see if you can send them all these images by email or something.... maybe they'll agree to send a replacement scope right away, before they receive this one back.... won't hurt to ask.... also ask about shipping costs....


   
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
TK - that's probably why mine seems fine and dandy, it's only used for around 10 minutes at a time. Up to now that is learning time and the wish to keep those hours down until it's shown whether unlocking did anything. I personally don't think it could, not like that...unless...someone hooked in malware.
You know the scene, scope starts to glitch, then the washing machine comes on all on its own, then the postman tells you what you had for dinner last night :)

You've got all the evidence, plus that might help them to identify an area of failure.


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@Slider: I always like to "burn in" stuff like this: computers, etc, because you want them to fail sooner rather than later if they are going to fail at all. Easier to get warranty service that way. Any scope should be able to stay on 8 hours a day every day in a workbench-type usage environment, or run continuously, without any problems.

@Chet: By the way all these shots are done in "unhacked" or rather not-unlocked mode, in case they should ask about that. So the glitching is _not_ a result of the hacking to unlock the features. Also, the only thing I have ever connected the CH4 to is to the scope's probe Calibrator output and to a 5V multivibrator running at about 1300 Hz, no chance of it being "blown" by misuse. I first noticed the glitching when connected to the multivibrator and confirmed it with the Calibrator

Here's proof that the scope isn't unlocked (now...)   ;)



   
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Wife has had a cracking idea, just to cover all bases.
She said 'can he try it in some form of Faraday cage ?'
It's a wonder, does it do the same thing if you put some kind of shielding around, rig an old large microwave or move it to a different place in the house ?
If it's still the same with such wild glitching, then no outside sources could be to blame.


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Wife has had a cracking idea, just to cover all bases.
She said 'can he try it in some form of Faraday cage ?'
It's a wonder, does it do the same thing if you put some kind of shielding around, rig an old large microwave or move it to a different place in the house ?
If it's still the same with such wild glitching, then no outside sources could be to blame.


Hard to imagine why only one channel would be affected in that case, but it's a thought. I'll try moving it to another room, and also putting it in my copper screen cage, before I box it up tomorrow. We've just had a thunderstorm move in so I've shut down for the evening, unplugged it. Computer is on backup power supply so I'm not worried about that, but internet might go down.
Tell the wife she's "on the ball" for suggesting that, it's a good guess even though unlikely because of the just one channel affected.
   
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What a pain in the butt Tinsel, Just can't help bad luck I guess, I think your new scopes are the 4 channel better version of my DS1052E, apparently I can hack it as well to increase it from a 50 MHz to a 100 MHz scope but I don't think I personally need that. But your video's will still be very helpful to me so thanks a heap.  O0

P.S. I've also noticed my RIGOL scope has software "glitches" at times usually when doing things or changing settings, I've had it "Lock up" and seem be frozen rebooting made it work again, and I am fairly sure I've seen it glitch out and become non responsive to button presses and seem to keep working otherwise, this was last year so, I think I had to reboot again. Haven't noticed any offset problems but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Aside from the possible hardware issues you may have, maybe the glitching in the software could be an issue with a lot or maybe even all RIGOL DSO's of this Model or range.

It is a major pain to have to reboot the scope when in the middle of doing something, a bit disconcerting as well.

..

The fan for me is not the noise being a problem but I hate the idea of the fan sucking dust and fluff into the scope, the longer it runs the more air (with dust and fluff in it) goes into the scope case. I intend to cover the intake grid with some fly screen mesh, I found on computers this is great as it catches the fine fluff and it can then be removed easily from the fly wire every now and then. The stock intake grille will allow stuff to get into my scope I don't have a dust free clean Lab.

..
« Last Edit: 2015-04-13, 06:52:04 by Farmhand »
   
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Spoke with one of the girls at TE ,I have to speak with Manufacturer in about an hour when they
open...[west coast USA\-]very pleasant straight forward process so far.
will keep you posted.



« Last Edit: 2015-04-13, 15:24:07 by Chet K »
   
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OK
Spoke with Jason C  one of the head technicians  at Rigol ,told him we had recently purchased
a few of these and our Cheif metrologist was doing [or planning on doing]
a break in and how to Video for the rest of our Group....

and  Boopkis...
# I was specific to the issue with 4 th Channel

he said he will have them get one out ASAP and reminded me there is a three year warrantee from Rigol after this 30 day period with the distributor.

 Made a follow up call to the Distributor {TE] Jennifer is verifying this agreement and E mailing me the Tracking info
will keep you posted.

PACK IT UP !!

PS
if all goes well ,I get the feeling there may be opportunity here for a tutorial series on new Rigol product
demonstrations ,for a certain Metrologist...
always keep a look out for the silver lining..[will be discussing that with Jason]

   
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OK
Spoke with Jason C  one of the head technicians  at Rigol ,told him we had recently purchased
a few of these and our Cheif metrologist was doing [or planning on doing]
a break in and how to Video for the rest of our Group....

and  Boopkis...
# I was specific to the issue with 4 th Channel

he said he will have them get one out ASAP and reminded me there is a three year warrantee from Rigol after this 30 day period with the distributor.

 Made a follow up call to the Distributor {TE] Jennifer is verifying this agreement and E mailing me the Tracking info
will keep you posted.

PACK IT UP !!

PS
if all goes well ,I get the feeling there may be opportunity here for a tutorial series on new Rigol product
demonstrations ,for a certain Metrologist...
always keep a look out for the silver lining..[will be discussing that with Jason]



@Chet:
Ahh ... OK... that sounds like really good news. It's Packed Up and ready to go, but I don't know where to send it to....
Let me know what you find out as to where, and RMA number, and all of that. Thanks for talking to them...
I'm really bad at talking to customer service people. Or people at all, for that matter, much prefer writing.
I guess you sent the pix and vid to Jason C?

I don't know about a formal "video series"... as you can see my camera's resolution isn't really all that great
after transcoding and compressing down enough to upload over my limited bandwidth connection... The original
of the "Glitch" video was over 600 MB and would have taken more than half a day to upload, so I had to crunch down
to around 60 MB to upload in a reasonable time.
 
But of course I intend to make some more videos showing the use of the various features of this really nice product.
It's packed with features, enough for a dozen or more 10-minute demo/tutorials.
I'm definitely an amateur when it comes to producing professional-looking vids with
my old Panasonic SDR-H40pc HD camera.

So TEquipment is sending another one out right now, am I understanding that right? That's really nice of Rigol and TEq.
I'll be sure to write up a nice review (assuming the new one works 100 percent of course!) and I'll mention the
great customer service and fast response. FWIW anyhow.




@Farmhand: The screen over the air inlet sounds like a really good idea. Many of the higher-end instruments from
HP, Tek, etc have screens and filters like that, and in my 3-dog household we have a lot of dust and dogfur to deal with.
When the new scope gets here I'll put a finer screen on the inlet right away.
(I just now cleaned off the window air conditioner filter... yuck, what a mess of dust and doghair!)

I'm not sure about the feature set of the 1052E but the 1054 has some nice ones that I'll be trying to demonstrate.

The Pass-Fail Mask test function that I used to capture the scope's glitches is really neat and easy to use. I also like
the wide screen, although the actual waveform display area is only about the same size as my analog Tek 2213's screen.
With five traces on the screen (4 channels + math) it feels kind of cramped, but that's true of pretty much all scopes
in the less-than-10,000 dollar price range. (LeCroys... great big screens...  drool).

   
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Wife has had a cracking idea, just to cover all bases.
She said 'can he try it in some form of Faraday cage ?'
It's a wonder, does it do the same thing if you put some kind of shielding around, rig an old large microwave or move it to a different place in the house ?
If it's still the same with such wild glitching, then no outside sources could be to blame.


Before I boxed it up this morning I took it into the other room, powered on a different house circuit, and it still glitched with no change.
I didn't try the Faraday cage, but it was a good idea, please tell your wife "thanks" for the suggestion!
   
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OK, scope has been sent back via UPS Ground to TEquipment in NJ. Due to arrive there on Thursday.

Hopefully they will get a new one sent out to me today, based on the info that Chet has sent them.

Ah well, I've been losing too much sleep anyhow, staying up playing with the thing all night and
all day. Now maybe I can get caught up with my old movie list....

 ;)
   
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I like that screen idea too, had thought the blower would blow outwards, removing heat.
Maybe cooling air doesn't hit Channel 4 or some such.
Good to hear of the scope being sent straight away...half expected a 2 month wait. Bear in mind it's likely to go the whole way across the USA, only to come back again to your place. They might do well to fit really long elastic bands to the back of the trucks.

Will tell Julie :)


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As you face the scope, it sucks air in on the right side, blows it over the power supply mostly, and it exits the left side. The fan is near the left side, just inside the openings for the air to go out. I think it would be a good idea to put a finer screen, like even window screen material, over the right side inlet holes. Not too fine, you don't want to restrict the airflow, it's not a superpowerful blast in the first place.
All the "front end" parts are not in the airflow at all, it's mostly to cool the power supply. There's an EEVBlog video where Dave takes one apart, it's very informative. I think I was confused about the fan location, I dunno, it can be seen in Dave's video though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9P1Am9aFU

I dunno what's going on now, as far as getting me a replacement.  Chet is talking to somebody at Rigol in California I think, and also to TEquipment who have a bunch of scopes in stock in their warehouse in Pennsylvania. And I'm halfway in between, sort of.  All I know right now is that I've sent the scope off to New Jersey and it's supposed to arrive there on Thursday "by the end of day" , or more likely Friday.
   
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Just hung Up with the very nice and polite Warrantee rep [actually 15 minutes ago 4.50 PM EDT]
your NEW scope will be leaving for its new home tomorrow...
I will be making sure of that in the AM [tracking info and such[not available as of this printing]]]
   
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Well, that's nice to hear! I've been moping about, getting really discouraged with the whole thing.

So if they really do send one out tomorrow, maybe it will arrive here (or somewhere in the near vicinity) on Friday? Or maybe Monday....

Let's hope they don't send another lemon. Fingers crossed, everybody!

Thanks, Chet, for slugging away at this. I'm just not suited for such things, I'm really bad at talking to Customer Service.
   
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
EEVblog is superb for teardowns indeed. Had seen the video, but it's not something I remembered to remember.
I was thinking of screen door stuff too, because our cats have ruined a couple of window screens and I can reuse the good remainder.

May be an idea to get some day-glo markers and make some large signs with your house number on them !
Am very happy that you got sorted out so quickly and kudos to Chet for his efforts in a quick resolution  O0


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