A look at Arie De Geus Patent No 1032759

[Peterae]

Hi Itsu
Thanks your signal gen + / - is wrong way round if you look at the circuit 0v is on left and positive goes to both caps, well thats how i read it although its not clear, would you place the switch on the neg side of the sig gen output?

[Itsu]

Peter,

OK, i understood the ground point was in between the 2 capacitors, but i see your point about the switch.

Anyway, just change it to how you think it supposes to be connected, adjust the values (capacitance and inductance) and check the signals, they should be close to what you see on the scope. 

Itsu

[Peterae]

Sure 

It also changes where the scope probes 0V is connected to 0V sig gen also not middle of caps. 

[Peterae]

**Note this looks like it maybe a result of connecting a voltmeter across A & B because when i disconnect the meter the resonant frequency changes a lot and i loose the DC offset on the Scope point A, although i have seen a slight DC offset so far it's under 10mv.

At Resonance i do get a dc shift of the level on the point A, placing a Voltmeter across A & B i can measure between 5-6 volts DC but only at max resonance, on the scope i have a DC offset of 37V which is how i think it manifests itself, although the biggest DC voltage is at the lower resonant frequency of around 1Mhz without the phase shift, although a DC offset is present higher up in frequency the DC voltage measured is lower.
So why would A be showing a DC offset, my scope channel is set to 0V center line.

Yellow probe is A
Blue probe is B
0V of signal gen and scope probes is left side of Coil A as per diagram.

[Peterae]

Dam i've been going over how i have this hooked up to make sure everything is right, it looks like i am running in bucking mode all along. Sorry my mistake, which is even weirder now, i will need to draw a circuit of what i have hooked up as soon as i get some time over next few days.
Still getting the weird super imposed signal as well.

[Peterae]

Quick sketch, God knows how i connected it up like this but this is what i have, looks like 2 series LC circuits in bucking mode.
I mixed up the green end.

[Itsu]

Peter,

i rearranged the LTspice circuit as per your drawing above, but we need some more info, like coils inductance, capacitors capacitance, input signals (voltage, waveform, frequency), etc.

Here i made some guesses on what i see on the scope (1MHz sine wave) and some earlier info.

But the sim shows some 180 degree phase shift between the A to ground signal and A to B signal:



Itsu

[Peterae]

Hi Itsu
thanks for the simulation, I think the noise on the sinewaves is an interaction between the 2 series LC windings as they are closely coupled, not sure if you can simulate a Bifilar coil?

Inductance is in one of the posts above, https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?msg=120229
at 272.88uH

both variable caps are both below 25pf and vary from about 5pf so 5-25pf.
The resonant frequencies ive been running at are in the scope shots.

If you sim at 10pf each cap with that inductor it would be interesting to see where your resonant frequency is at.

The phase shift is weird it changes, if you look at this test https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?msg=120240

you see that the higher resonant frequency 5.4Mhz is 180 Degrees but the lower bigger at 1.18Mhz is not.

I'm running about 20Vp-p but should check that maybe. sinewave because my squarewave is bad above 1Mhz, the singal generator is 50Ohms output although it does have a 600Ohm output as well but not tried that yet.

The interesting thing was putting a DVM across A & B and getting a DC offset, i wonder whats in the DVM to recreate this.

I also want to try an avremenko plug on the open end of the coil to see what it picks up.

[Itsu]

Peter,

thanks for the simulation, I think the noise on the sinewaves is an interaction between the 2 series LC windings as they are closely coupled, not sure if you can simulate a Bifilar coil?

I don't think these 2 closely coupled series LC windings are forming a bifilar coil, they are not directly connected to each other, and yes, LTspice can simulate a Bifilar coil.
Also, as verpies often mentions, how bifilar?  There are 3 (or 4) ways you can hook up coils to form a bifilar coil:

both variable caps are both below 25pf and vary from about 5pf so 5-25pf.
The resonant frequencies ive been running at are in the scope shots.

In the scope shots i see 5.4MHz, 5.6Mhz, 1.18MHz, 10.6Mhz, 8Mhz, and in your last screenshot 1Mhz, but IMO these were all from before you changes your circuit from what you called "bucking mode" to the present setup.
Do you have still the same resonance frequencies?

If you sim at 10pf each cap with that inductor it would be interesting to see where your resonant frequency is at.

The sim follows the LC resonant rules like in this calculator: https://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm   so in this case Frequency with C = 10pF and L = 273uH is 3.0461Mhz

The phase shift is weird it changes, if you look at this test https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?msg=120240

you see that the higher resonant frequency 5.4Mhz is 180 Degrees but the lower bigger at 1.18Mhz is not.

Would that not be normal with 2 LC circuits closely coupled?

The interesting thing was putting a DVM across A & B and getting a DC offset, i wonder whats in the DVM to recreate this.

Well, your guess is as good as mine. 


Itsu

[Peterae]

Yes as you could see im diag 2, im using the co joined wire that we both bought from years ago, 2 parralel enamelled copper wires joined together, ive been posting exact construction details in this thread with pictures.? see post 137 the red and green wires a together, side by side along the whole windings.

The wires from each coil run together, they at least are capacitively coupled, i suppose i could measure that.


All my test have been to the drawing i posted in post 155, i built it wrong when i started but didnt realize, during the earlier tests i had thought i wired it up like the patent, but because of the strange effects i looked more closely and realized i had mixed the green wires ends up, i realized this in post 155

[Peterae]

I wonder what would happen if i put a diode across point blue - yellow maybe raise the dc voltage on the green coil like the meter did?

If i sit the green coil waveform on a DC voltage i might attract free electrons, then load that to see what power gain there is if any, if a positive gain were there you could use this DC to drive a sine oscillator to drive the red coil, if there was gain it would free run.

[Itsu]

Yes as you could see im diag 2, im using the co joined wire that we both bought from years ago, 2 parralel enamelled copper wires joined together, ive been posting exact construction details in this thread with pictures.? see post 137 the red and green wires a together, side by side along the whole windings.

The wires from each coil run together, they at least are capacitively coupled, i suppose i could measure that.


All my test have been to the drawing i posted in post 155, i built it wrong when i started but didnt realize, during the earlier tests i had thought i wired it up like the patent, but because of the strange effects i looked more closely and realized i had mixed the green wires ends up, i realized this in post 155

Peter,

Yes, i know how the coils are connected, i was working on this same setup years ago, see the beginning of this thread were i made extensive tests with it, but i argue that, allthough the both coils are wounded up together (green and red side to side), they do not form a bifilar coil as in any of the shown drawings because the both coils are not connected to each other directly.

The patent also never mentions the word bifilar, but is referred to as parellel wires.


After your change in post #155, did you notice any change on the scoped signals concerning the phase jitter etc.?

Anyway, when using your 273uH coils and 1.28pF capacitors in the sim and feeding it with an 8.5Mhz signal (as used in the patent), there is resonance in the system.
Perhaps you can set your capacitors to their minimum of 5pF? and feed in 4.3Mhz from the FG and see if there also is resonance now (should be) with steady signals.

Itsu

[Itsu]

I wonder what would happen if i put a diode across point blue - yellow maybe raise the dc voltage on the green coil like the meter did?

If i sit the green coil waveform on a DC voltage i might attract free electrons.

There is only one way to find out

But to see if it attracts free electrons, you need some good input and output signals controls to detect that IMO.