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Author Topic: Constant Shifting center of mass motor  (Read 42663 times)

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31st,october,2013


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Overboard, you are wrong about the way that gravitational slingshot navigation works. There is an exchange of momentum between the tiny tiny spacecraft and the huge planet: The spacecraft accelerates substantially and the planet slows infinitesimally. Momentum is conserved, as always.

TK
I would have to disagre with this. The planet would not slow in rotational speed-even a very small amount. The planet would only be pulled slightly toward the space craft,slightly shifting it's orbital path-->but it would not slow down in rotational speed.


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TK
I would have to disagre with this. The planet would not slow in rotational speed-even a very small amount. The planet would only be pulled slightly toward the space craft,slightly shifting it's orbital path-->but it would not slow down in rotational speed.

I would have to disagree with you Tinman, I believe TK is correct however the answer could be expanded on for clarity as there are actually two significant systems at play in his statement.

The first system is the relationship between the Earth and the spacecraft ?

http://www.universetoday.com/14491/why-does-the-earth-rotate/

The second system is the relationship between the Earth and the Sun and the spacecraft:

http://www.universetoday.com/113488/how-do-gravitational-slingshots-work/

The relevant paragraphs are in italics below:

So how do gravitational assists work? You probably know this involves flying your spacecraft dangerously close to a massive planet. But how does this help speed you up? Sure, as the spacecraft flies towards the planet, it speeds up. But then, as it flies away, it slows down again. Sort of like a skateboarder in a half pipe.

This process nets out to zero, with no overall increase in velocity as your spacecraft falls into and out of the gravity well
. So how do they do it? Here’s the trick. Each planet has an orbital speed travelling around the Sun.

As the spacecraft approaches the planet, its gravity pulls the much lighter spacecraft so that it catches up with the planet in orbit. It’s the orbital momentum from the planet which gives the spacecraft a tremendous speed boost. The closer it can fly, the more momentum it receives, and the faster it flies away from the encounter.

To kick the velocity even higher, the spacecraft can fire its rockets during the closest approach, and the high speed encounter will multiply the effect of the rockets. This speed boost comes with a cost. It’s still a transfer of momentum. The planet loses a tiny bit of orbital velocity.

If you did enough gravitational slingshots, such as several zillion zillion slingshots, you’d eventually cause the planet to crash into the Sun. You can use gravitational slingshots to decelerate by doing the whole thing backwards. You approach the planet in the opposite direction that it’s orbiting the Sun. The transfer of momentum will slow down the spacecraft a significant amount, and speed up the planet an infinitesimal amount.


Any sane scientist error checks his own work constantly, accepting he will make mistakes occasionally. I might not be able to grasp the null hypothesis but frequent error checks ensure i have a high probability of observing those errors and correcting them. A knowledge foundation must be constantly cross referenced for accuracy, which includes validating claims with actual experiential test data, or it is useless.



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I would have to disagree with you Tinman, I believe TK is correct however the answer could be expanded on for clarity as there are actually two significant systems at play in his statement.

The first system is the relationship between the Earth and the spacecraft ?

http://www.universetoday.com/14491/why-does-the-earth-rotate/

The second system is the relationship between the Earth and the Sun and the spacecraft:

http://www.universetoday.com/113488/how-do-gravitational-slingshots-work/

The relevant paragraphs are in italics below:

So how do gravitational assists work? You probably know this involves flying your spacecraft dangerously close to a massive planet. But how does this help speed you up? Sure, as the spacecraft flies towards the planet, it speeds up. But then, as it flies away, it slows down again. Sort of like a skateboarder in a half pipe.

This process nets out to zero, with no overall increase in velocity as your spacecraft falls into and out of the gravity well
. So how do they do it? Here’s the trick. Each planet has an orbital speed travelling around the Sun.

As the spacecraft approaches the planet, its gravity pulls the much lighter spacecraft so that it catches up with the planet in orbit. It’s the orbital momentum from the planet which gives the spacecraft a tremendous speed boost. The closer it can fly, the more momentum it receives, and the faster it flies away from the encounter.

To kick the velocity even higher, the spacecraft can fire its rockets during the closest approach, and the high speed encounter will multiply the effect of the rockets. This speed boost comes with a cost. It’s still a transfer of momentum. The planet loses a tiny bit of orbital velocity.

If you did enough gravitational slingshots, such as several zillion zillion slingshots, you’d eventually cause the planet to crash into the Sun. You can use gravitational slingshots to decelerate by doing the whole thing backwards. You approach the planet in the opposite direction that it’s orbiting the Sun. The transfer of momentum will slow down the spacecraft a significant amount, and speed up the planet an infinitesimal amount.


Any sane scientist error checks his own work constantly, accepting he will make mistakes occasionally. I might not be able to grasp the null hypothesis but frequent error checks ensure i have a high probability of observing those errors and correcting them. A knowledge foundation must be constantly cross referenced for accuracy, which includes validating claims with actual experiential test data, or it is useless.


EA
I did say rotational speed would not be changed,and did say that the orbital path would be changed.To understand what really happen's,first you must understand that there is no orbit around the sun from any planet,so an orbital change cannot happen in such a sense.


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The two systems must be identified, TK's initial statement which you quoted did not clarify the difference, your reply to that statement included reference to both systems.

EA
I did say rotational speed would not be changed
This statement is correct for the first system as the (Earth + spaceship) nets out to zero, incorrect for the second system (Sun + Earth + spaceship) as the planet loses a tiny bit of orbital velocity and therefore rotational speed (of the Earth around the Sun) causing the orbit of the Earth to decay slightly. A transfer of Momentum has occurred.

and did say that the orbital path would be changed.
Yes, the loss of orbital velocity of The Earth (energy the Earth has given to the spacecraft) results in a decayed orbit from the loss of rotational speed of the Earth around the Sun.

To understand what really happen's,first you must understand that there is no orbit around the sun from any planet,so an orbital change cannot happen in such a sense.
Sounds good! what is your hypothesis ?


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The two systems must be identified, TK's initial statement which you quoted did not clarify the difference, your reply to that statement included reference to both systems.
This statement is correct for the first system as the (Earth + spaceship) nets out to zero, incorrect for the second system (Sun + Earth + spaceship) as the planet loses a tiny bit of orbital velocity and therefore rotational speed (of the Earth around the Sun) causing the orbit of the Earth to decay slightly. A transfer of Momentum has occurred.
Yes, the loss of orbital velocity of The Earth (energy the Earth has given to the spacecraft) results in a decayed orbit from the loss of rotational speed of the Earth around the Sun.
Sounds good! what is your hypothesis ?
The earth(or any other planet in our solar system for that matter)dose not orbit the sun,and thus no orbital velocity can be lost-->because it dosnt exist in the first place. You simply cannot orbit an object that is moving through space. The sun follows a helical path in relation to the galactic plane,and the planets follow a helical path behind the sun-so there is no orbit that can be decreased.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU


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The earth(or any other planet in our solar system for that matter)dose not orbit the sun,and thus no orbital velocity can be lost-->because it dosnt exist in the first place. You simply cannot orbit an object that is moving through space. The sun follows a helical path in relation to the galactic plane,and the planets follow a helical path behind the sun-so there is no orbit that can be decreased.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jHsq36_NTU

Oh come on Tinman. Certainly you can choose a frame of reference where it looks like there is a helical path being traced out in space... but that does NOT mean that there are no orbits! There are literally thousands of artificial satellites that are  _in orbit_ around the Earth, around the Sun, and even around planets and tiny asteroids. Every one of those things is where it is because it was _put there_ by scientists who understand orbital dynamics in the conventional sense. Even astronomers hundreds of years ago understood orbits and were able to calculate accurate positions of things like the moon and planets far in advance. A couple of planets were even _discovered_ because irregularities in the measured and calculated orbital positions of other planets predicted that they had to be there, and when astronomers looked, sure enough there they were.
Do you think it's some kind of magic that keeps the satellites of Jupiter moving in totally predictable courses around that planet, even though Jupiter itself is moving around the sun? Sure it is.... the magic of Gravity, as expressed in the solid science of Orbital Mechanics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_mechanics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_relativity
   

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I like the EU theory that proposes it is an electrical force that causes these orbits  >:-)
   

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You are making claims, without support. The burden of proof is ON YOU. I have given you references with rigorous analyses of why your _proposed_ design cannot work...you have not refuted any of those analyses. I have shown you my own work showing how to test such claims... you have provided nothing in return EXCEPT MORE INSULTS.

The proper way for you to proceed is to REFUTE ME with demonstrations of your own, showing that your claims are true. But of course you cannot... because they aren't. Therefore you follow the Usual Script to the letter: you rant and moan and proceed with your pottymouth insults that would be silly coming from an eighth-grader, but are just pathetic coming from someone who is supposed to be all grown up:

I have noticed a huge drop in claimants attempting to refute known facts in support of their conjectures. They just ignore the facts, fail to research their own positions or back up their own claims and statements. It appears they have collectively decided (maybe on a subconscious level) to push forward with their delusions regardless. Error checking your own work is hard work, very time consuming to constantly cross reference and fact check so they just don't bother. If they were to attempt to refute themselves they might not like the answer.. so that is not an option for them.


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I like the EU theory that proposes it is an electrical force that causes these orbits  >:-)
The relationship between electromagnetism and gravity has yet to be defined.

A few links that readers might be interested in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_field_theory


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"I have noticed a huge drop in claimants attempting to refute known facts in support of their conjectures. They just ignore the facts, fail to research their own positions or back up their own claims and statements. It appears they have collectively decided (maybe on a subconscious level) to push forward with their delusions regardless. Error checking your own work is hard work, very time consuming to constantly cross reference and fact check so they just don't bother. If they were to attempt to refute themselves they might not like the answer.. so that is not an option for them."  Whatever, I have money, will ou help me build it?  Or are you just a propagandist? Just like Valirey, OMG... he does not build anything new?... He only copies what  everyone else Has buillt.  Valirey you suck, you are still entertaining, but you suck.
   
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Please tone it down. Disrespectful, childish behavior won't be tolerated on this forum, mindless disbelieving behavior will be tolerated ...Won't it?
   

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Please tone it down. Disrespectful, childish behavior won't be tolerated on this forum, mindless disbelieving behavior will be tolerated ...Won't it?

Your on shaky ground my friend, think long and hard before you go down this road with me.


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Then lets go...My friend..
   

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It is very kind of you to offer to pay me to help you build your design, however I must decline. I do not believe it will work as described and therefore my heart would not be in it. I cannot pocket your cash under those conditions as to my mind I would be ripping you off.

However, I am interested in gravity devices in general and the only method of harnessing gravitational energy that I currently believe has a chance of working involves density change within a specific gravity fluid system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight

In modern scientific usage, weight and mass are fundamentally different quantities: mass is an "extrinsic" (extensive) property of matter, whereas weight is a force that results from the action of gravity on matter: it measures how strongly the force of gravity pulls on that matter. However, in most practical everyday situations the word "weight" is used when, strictly, "mass" is meant.[4][17] For example, most people would say that an object "weighs one kilogram", even though the kilogram is a unit of mass.

The scientific distinction between mass and weight is unimportant for many practical purposes because the strength of gravity is almost the same everywhere on the surface of the Earth. In a uniform gravitational field, the gravitational force exerted on an object (its weight) is directly proportional to its mass.

Weight is a force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_acceleration

In physics, gravitational acceleration is the acceleration on an object caused by force of gravitation. Neglecting friction such as air resistance, all small bodies accelerate in a gravitational field at the same rate relative to the center of mass.[1] This equality is true regardless of the masses or compositions of the bodies.

At different points on Earth, objects fall with an acceleration between 9.78 and 9.83 m/s2 depending on altitude and latitude, with a conventional standard value of exactly 9.80665 m/s2 (approx. 32.174 ft/s2). Objects with low densities do not accelerate as rapidly due to buoyancy and air resistance.


Force = Mass x Gravitational Acceleration


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy

In science, buoyancy (pronunciation: /ˈbɔɪ.ənᵗsi/[1][2] or /ˈbuːjənᵗsi/)[1][2] (also known as upthrust) is an upward force exerted by a fluid that opposes the weight of an immersed object. In a column of fluid, pressure increases with depth as a result of the weight of the overlying fluid. Thus a column of fluid, or an object submerged in the fluid, experiences greater pressure at the bottom of the column than at the top. This difference in pressure results in a net force that tends to accelerate an object upwards. The magnitude of that force is proportional to the difference in the pressure between the top and the bottom of the column, and (as explained by Archimedes' principle) is also equivalent to the weight of the fluid that would otherwise occupy the column, i.e. the displaced fluid.

For this reason, an object whose density is greater than that of the fluid in which it is submerged tends to sink. If the object is either less dense than the liquid or is shaped appropriately (as in a boat), the force can keep the object afloat. This can occur only in a reference frame which either has a gravitational field or is accelerating due to a force other than gravity defining a "downward" direction (that is, a non-inertial reference frame). In a situation of fluid statics, the net upward buoyancy force is equal to the magnitude of the weight of fluid displaced by the body.[3]

The center of buoyancy of an object is the centroid of the displaced volume of fluid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_gravity

Specific gravity is the ratio of the density of a substance to the density (mass of the same unit volume) of a reference substance. Apparent specific gravity is the ratio of the weight of a volume of the substance to the weight of an equal volume of the reference substance.

In summary, a lightweight vessel immersed in water and filled with water would sink. Using electricity to phase change water into hho will change the density of the system within the vessel. A change in density results in a change in gravitational acceleration on the vessel and the vessel would rise within the specific gravity field due to buoyancy. This is not the full system description, you would have to understand hhop gen 2+ to build it.


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If your vessel is _sealed_ then the quantity of matter (mass) inside it won't change when you electrolyze the water into the H2 and O2 gas mixture. If the vessel is also rigid so that the volume doesn't change due to the increased pressure inside it, then the density of the whole vessel+contents doesn't change either. Hence no change in buoyancy.
   

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If your vessel is _sealed_ then the quantity of matter (mass) inside it won't change when you electrolyze the water into the H2 and O2 gas mixture. If the vessel is also rigid so that the volume doesn't change due to the increased pressure inside it, then the density of the whole vessel+contents doesn't change either. Hence no change in buoyancy.

I agree TK, thankyou for your refutation. Now it is my turn to refute you, which is how science discussion amongst peers should proceed. :)

At a depth of 100 metres the pressure external to the vessel attempting to crush it is 160 psi (just like a rigid submarine). Therefore the pressure that must be overcome in order to pump the water out of the vessel is 160 psi. Is hho stable enough and capable of pumping water at a pressure of 160 psi ? I think it is..

With all the unused electrolyte water pumped out of the vessel you will have an internal pneumatic pressure of 160 psi and an external hydraulic pressure of 160 psi. The contents inside of the vessel have now changed, it has gained relative buoyancy and will proceed to move upward within the fluid it is immersed in. When it reaches the surface it will stop rising as the vessel is heavier than air, at this point a valve can be opened and the vessel will bleed itself pumping the gas out of the vessel. The hho (fuel) has been produced but not combusted and can now become an input to a second system. The cycle will then repeat..


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here is my input O0.
below is a rough sketch of a steel sphere in the two separate states-1 buoyant,and one non buoyant.
A steel sphere of heavy wall thickness that requires a volume of 6LTR's of water to become non buoyant,has it's gas area pulled down to a vacuum(or as high a negative pressure as we can get). In this state it is only just non buoyant(it will sink).At this point,the water inside provides only a downward force upon the sphere,and no upward force is applied to the sphere due to the vacuum. Now when on the ocean floor,1 LTR of the water is phase changed into a buoyant gas-that being HHO. This now pressurized gas provides an even force on all internal points of the sphere wall,and the non buoyant water volume has now been reduced. So now the sphere becomes buoyant and makes it way to the surface. Once at the surface,the HHO gas inside is ignited,and once again becomes water--and the cycle repeats. O0


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I agree TK, thankyou for your refutation. Now it is my turn to refute you, which is how science discussion amongst peers should proceed. :)

At a depth of 100 metres the pressure external to the vessel attempting to crush it is 160 psi (just like a rigid submarine). Therefore the pressure that must be overcome in order to pump the water out of the vessel is 160 psi. Is hho stable enough and capable of pumping water at a pressure of 160 psi ? I think it is..

With all the unused electrolyte water pumped out of the vessel you will have an internal pneumatic pressure of 160 psi and an external hydraulic pressure of 160 psi. The contents inside of the vessel have now changed, it has gained relative buoyancy and will proceed to move upward within the fluid it is immersed in. When it reaches the surface it will stop rising as the vessel is heavier than air, at this point a valve can be opened and the vessel will bleed itself pumping the gas out of the vessel. The hho (fuel) has been produced but not combusted and can now become an input to a second system. The cycle will then repeat..

This isn't really a "refutation" of my point, since now you are removing mass from the vessel. Therefore its density does change. The same thing will happen if you just use compressed air to push some of the water out of the system changing its mass, and/or to change its volume by pushing a piston or swelling up some flexible enclosure. The Cartesian Diver is an example. But I thought you were referring to a sealed and rigid system, though.

The apparatus that TinMan demonstrated a few weeks ago is rigid and sealed so that no mass escapes, I thought, so its weight change during the experiment is still a mystery to me. However I have seen similar experiments that actually changed "weight" due to swelling/shrinking of the sealed vessel and the corresponding changes in its buoyancy _in air_. These weight changes due to changing buoyancy in air are much smaller than what TinMan measured though.
   
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here is my input O0.
below is a rough sketch of a steel sphere in the two separate states-1 buoyant,and one non buoyant.
A steel sphere of heavy wall thickness that requires a volume of 6LTR's of water to become non buoyant,has it's gas area pulled down to a vacuum(or as high a negative pressure as we can get). In this state it is only just non buoyant(it will sink).At this point,the water inside provides only a downward force upon the sphere,and no upward force is applied to the sphere due to the vacuum. Now when on the ocean floor,1 LTR of the water is phase changed into a buoyant gas-that being HHO. This now pressurized gas provides an even force on all internal points of the sphere wall,and the non buoyant water volume has now been reduced. So now the sphere becomes buoyant and makes it way to the surface. Once at the surface,the HHO gas inside is ignited,and once again becomes water--and the cycle repeats. O0

I really don't see how this could be happening, since the sphere is rigid (does not change volume) and the amount of matter inside the sphere is constant (does not change mass). Therefore the density of the sphere doesn't change... therefore its buoyancy does not change.

I remember your weight-change demonstration from your discussion of this with MarkE, but I don't have enough details of the demo apparatus to be able to analyze what happened there. 
   

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The apparatus that TinMan demonstrated a few weeks ago is rigid and sealed so that no mass escapes, I thought, so its weight change during the experiment is still a mystery to me. However I have seen similar experiments that actually changed "weight" due to swelling/shrinking of the sealed vessel and the corresponding changes in its buoyancy _in air_. These weight changes due to changing buoyancy in air are much smaller than what TinMan measured though.

Well some say my scale's were reading wrong,but it just made sense to me. We are transforming a (heavier than air)liquid into a (lighter than air)gas,so why wouldnt it get lighter?. I mean if we take a sphere(say 2 meters in diameter),and it is rigid enough that we can pull a decent vacuum in the sphere,and we then fill that with 2 parts hydrogen,and 1 part oxygen-->the sphere would weigh less than if it was full of just oxygen-right?. We then ignite the HHO inside that sphere,and the HHO then turns to water,and we once again have a vacuum in that sphere-right?. Now in sted of having a gas in there that is lighter than air,we have no gas,but we have a small amount of water. So would not the sphere now weigh more than it did at the start when it had only HHO gas in it?-and we have not changed the amount of mass in the sphere.


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Well some say my scale's were reading wrong,but it just made sense to me. We are transforming a (heavier than air)liquid into a (lighter than air)gas,so why wouldnt it get lighter?. I mean if we take a sphere(say 2 meters in diameter),and it is rigid enough that we can pull a decent vacuum in the sphere,and we then fill that with 2 parts hydrogen,and 1 part oxygen-->the sphere would weigh less than if it was full of just oxygen-right?. We then ignite the HHO inside that sphere,and the HHO then turns to water,and we once again have a vacuum in that sphere-right?. Now in sted of having a gas in there that is lighter than air,we have no gas,but we have a small amount of water. So would not the sphere now weigh more than it did at the start when it had only HHO gas in it?-and we have not changed the amount of mass in the sphere.

See, that's the part that I don't get. If you haven't changed the _mass_, and the sphere is rigid so that the _volume_ doesn't change, then the weight can't be changing either, since the weight is a measure of the force of gravity acting on the mass of the sphere+contents. There doesn't seem to be anywhere where the weight could change, since all the factors that determine weight have not changed. Neither the gravity, nor the mass, nor the volume are changing during the process of making the gas or burning it back to water.

The air outside the sphere doesn't know what's going on inside, whether there is gas, or water+vacuum "filling" the sphere. The gravity doesn't know either. As long as the number of atoms of hydrogen and oxygen don't change, the gravity pulls down on the masses of the atoms just the same whether they are in gas or liquid form, so the sphere as a whole weighs the same.
18 grams of water (one mole) when electrolyzed yields a large volume of oxygen and hydrogen gas at standard pressure and temperature ... but that great volume of gas still weighs 18 grams.
   

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See, that's the part that I don't get. If you haven't changed the _mass_, and the sphere is rigid so that the _volume_ doesn't change, then the weight can't be changing either, since the weight is a measure of the force of gravity acting on the mass of the sphere+contents. There doesn't seem to be anywhere where the weight could change, since all the factors that determine weight have not changed. Neither the gravity, nor the mass, nor the volume are changing during the process of making the gas or burning it back to water.

The air outside the sphere doesn't know what's going on inside, whether there is gas, or water+vacuum "filling" the sphere. The gravity doesn't know either. As long as the number of atoms of hydrogen and oxygen don't change, the gravity pulls down on the masses of the atoms just the same whether they are in gas or liquid form, so the sphere as a whole weighs the same.
18 grams of water (one mole) when electrolyzed yields a large volume of oxygen and hydrogen gas at standard pressure and temperature ... but that great volume of gas still weighs 18 grams.


Mmm-well i don't know enough about how gravity waves act upon separated and combined molecules. I do know that gravity waves travel faster than the speed of light,or the gravitational force travels faster than the speed of light-->what ever gravity is,is is faster than light. So maybe it acts upon the separated molecules differently than it dose on the combine molecules?.


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here is my input O0.
below is a rough sketch of a steel sphere in the two separate states-1 buoyant,and one non buoyant.
A steel sphere of heavy wall thickness that requires a volume of 6LTR's of water to become non buoyant,has it's gas area pulled down to a vacuum(or as high a negative pressure as we can get). In this state it is only just non buoyant(it will sink).At this point,the water inside provides only a downward force upon the sphere,and no upward force is applied to the sphere due to the vacuum. Now when on the ocean floor,1 LTR of the water is phase changed into a buoyant gas-that being HHO. This now pressurized gas provides an even force on all internal points of the sphere wall,and the non buoyant water volume has now been reduced. So now the sphere becomes buoyant and makes it way to the surface. Once at the surface,the HHO gas inside is ignited,and once again becomes water--and the cycle repeats. O0

Good post Tinman!

The vacuum is not necessary, you have seen the private demonstration I did ;) and that hhop system was fully bled.. ie fully hydraulic with virtually no pneumatic compressible space available hence the relatively quick hydraulic pressure rise witnessed on the gauge. Within a gravitational field all gravitational forces are downwards  :D (there is no upward force!) those forces differ due to gravitational acceleration which is dependent on density. In truth a lightweight gas has a downward force it only appears to be an upward force due to the specific gravity fluid field and the effects of bouyancy. Solid on the bottom, liquid on top of that, gas highest in the order.. ignore plasma for now it is not relevant to this discussion.

The arrows on your diagram are wrong, the sphere is rigid and able to absorb the internal and external pressure forces without deflection. There should be arrows on the inside pointing out, and arrows on the outside pointing in.

Igniting the hho is doing no effective work in your system apart from phase change from liquid to gas creating a relative vacuum, and heat transferred to the environment. In my proposed system the hho gas is purged and exits the system and becomes an input to a second system completely unrelated to the system it was created in. This allows for work to be extracted from the gas ignition phase change effectively. I am not burning any hho in my system at all, just using the properties of the gas creation to manipulate the specific gravity field and extract work from that alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_acceleration

"Objects with low densities do not accelerate as rapidly due to buoyancy and air resistance."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy

"In science, buoyancy (pronunciation: /ˈbɔɪ.ənᵗsi/[1][2] or /ˈbuːjənᵗsi/)[1][2] (also known as upthrust) is an upward force exerted by a fluid that opposes the weight of an immersed object. In a column of fluid, pressure increases with depth as a result of the weight of the overlying fluid. Thus a column of fluid, or an object submerged in the fluid, experiences greater pressure at the bottom of the column than at the top. This difference in pressure results in a net force that tends to accelerate an object upwards. The magnitude of that force is proportional to the difference in the pressure between the top and the bottom of the column, and (as explained by Archimedes' principle) is also equivalent to the weight of the fluid that would otherwise occupy the column, i.e. the displaced fluid.

For this reason, an object whose density is greater than that of the fluid in which it is submerged tends to sink. If the object is either less dense than the liquid or is shaped appropriately (as in a boat), the force can keep the object afloat. This can occur only in a reference frame which either has a gravitational field or is accelerating due to a force other than gravity defining a "downward" direction (that is, a non-inertial reference frame). In a situation of fluid statics, the net upward buoyancy force is equal to the magnitude of the weight of fluid displaced by the body."


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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This isn't really a "refutation" of my point, since now you are removing mass from the vessel. Therefore its density does change. The same thing will happen if you just use compressed air to push some of the water out of the system changing its mass, and/or to change its volume by pushing a piston or swelling up some flexible enclosure. The Cartesian Diver is an example. But I thought you were referring to a sealed and rigid system, though.

Correct, you refuted accurately the system that I gave you information for, however I did add a caveat that I had not given you all the details. This is an example of how people can deliberately withold critical information making an accurate refutation impossible as the goal posts move whenever they need them too..  C.C

You can do the same thing with air yes, but an air compressor is quite a complex machine and has many moving parts and suffers from premature failure due to overheating amongst other things. An air compressor is very inefficient and has no chance of competing with a hhop system within this frame of reference.. the specific gravity fluid field.


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Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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