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Author Topic: current limiting capacitive battery charger  (Read 28374 times)
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Figured I would start a thread for the battery poppers out there.

Had a chance to do some basic tests with the circuit Duncan posted and the scope says below 30v the series cap does very little other than reduce the peak and more so mean voltage. This was charging a 12v/5Ah battery and I have many in dire need of a tune up as well as those damn garden tractor batteries which rarely make it through two seasons.

I am still in the process of writing some code for my PLC based on my tests at which point a hall effect sensor will monitor the current and if it ever exceeds a preset threshold the PLC will turn off the SSR opening the circuit...safety first kids. It would also seem wise to spend the extra $1 and add a thermistor to monitor battery temperature as I have 15 more inputs just waiting to be used. Obviously battery voltage will be monitored and I am throwing around the idea of adding scaled delay functions PWM on higher voltage levels.

On another note I was in an electronics forum reading about capacitor current limiting and the old timers said,  we do not talk about transformerless power supplies... Really, lol. At which point I thought they might want to brush up on it because all of the new generation grid tie inverters will be transformerless...period. In fact I would go so far as to say the transformer will be obsolete within the decade in most small and mid scale power schemes. They will be replaced by buck/boost or Cuk converters and solid state electronics. There is simply no getting around the fact intelligent electronics do the job better and cheaper and the key word here is intelligent.

I think this charger does have great potential with the addition of a $10 PLC and a few cheap sensors. I bought a "Genius" smart charger a while back and it's no genius in fact I would go so far as to say it's a piece of crap. A sulfated battery makes it jump through the four charging scales and then it goes into hibernation mode. My new charger is going to kick it's genius ass and bring my batteries back from the dead... I hope.

AC


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"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.
   

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I found some of the old SLA/gell cells can be dried out, but the top can be persuaded off to access the rubber caps so that a few mls of water can be added to the cells, I think it takes a while to soak into the mat/gell.
   
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AC I'm delighted your running a thread on the subject for whatever reason. As you know I was well aware of the rejuvinating qualities of this approach and I have arlready posted information that will run homes for free using this set up
I posted this particular circuit as a demonstration of a tiny part of a 'whole picture'  but regardless the truth will out !
Research tells me that better than 80% of LA batteries end up in the waste system because of suphation and even if that is reversed its surly a worthy and worthwhile acheivment Regardless of COP>1 claims I have made . It is very toxic waste I guess.
Batteries are complex and their charging curves are not linear over that curve when rejuvinating batteries like this there is a period of COP>1 that is outstanding The maths and science say it should be so (as Ive written) and it is! So please watch out for it. It is when the crystal formation is resonant.
AC the resonant point of  the LA battery is extreamly sharp and very hard to hold . It also alters very quickly w.r.t internal resistance and load resistance (resonant Q factor)
to give you some idea here is a video of me enjoying a glass of shiraz a few years ago , whilst trying to demonstrate the battery resonant curve to the 3BGS group.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwMCs1gO2o8

I assure you its extreamly difficult to hold and maintain! I did a lot more work,reading and thinking after that hamfisted bit of filming. I do have circuits and loops which I was considering I  also have an equivelent for Ni-cads but that really is high voltage I won't be posting that!
My arrow is obviously pointed at the theory of why it works with regard to the big COP>1 part of the rejuvination curve and not reclaiming batteries.(else I would have joined a battery forum) The crystal research bit of the equasion occupies me now. We have common ground regarding 'resonace'
and I'll add circuits and Idea's as your thread unfolds AC  if you have no objection.
Believe it or not farmhand being a Tesla coil fundi could help a great deal here if he would but change sides.as you'll see.

Kind Regards Duncan
  


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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Had some interesting results this morning, I ran the circuit from a 25v supply last night for about 30 minutes and the first picture below shows the waveform which was consistent during the run. The waveform was initially a sine wave which slowly became clipped at the normal voltage as expected. Mean voltage started at 15v and progressed to 17.5 and amp draw was around 100mA.

The test run last night was only 30 minutes however this morning the battery started drawing 500mA for no apparent reason and was clipped at around 16v with a mean voltage near 19v. I cannot help but be impressed as this battery would not take nor would it hold charge by spiking it with 24v or using my supposed genius charger. As well for the first time in over a year it will actually carry a load after charging.

AC


---------------------------
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.
   
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@Duncan
Quote
AC I'm delighted your running a thread on the subject for whatever reason. As you know I was well aware of the rejuvinating qualities of this approach and I have arlready posted information that will run homes for free using this set up

For now I am content with a means to condition my batteries and will most likely proceed with an Arduino based smart charger which will be open sourced. It is nothing to add a few basic and very inexpensive components to make this capacitive charger safe under any conditions in my opinion. In any case I am happy with the results so far and it is hard to argue with technology that works as claimed. My batteries are bubbling away taking charge when a normal charger would not work O0.
AC


---------------------------
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.
   

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Thanks Duncan for the charger. Tito L  Oracion originally recommended it but you convinced me enough to build it.
I'm running mine using  12 volt input  cfl circuit out of an old fire exit sign.
It's running at about 15 khz.  The transistor is stone cold.
I noticed that if I change the capacitor value the frequency alters (which is obvious if you think about it.).
The batteries are also stone cold due to the high voltage and the ionic breeze.
I'm charging 2 HGV batteries, 2 car batteries and two emergency lighting 65 amp batteries in parallel. They are/were good batteries however.

But I thought I would mention the frequency and cold aspect.
 
I also  have a stack of dead batteries and will be trying the 3 bs on it. I even have the correct  scooter 24 v
electric motor.
I was ready to throw the dead batts out but we shall see.


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VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   
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Good day AC


Sounds like a winner!  I have a stack of deep cycle/ car batteries outback that would do for the experiment.
Could you post the schematic or a link to the schematic that is being used for the charger?
It would be appreciated.

take care, peace
lost_bro
   

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I'm charging 2 HGV batteries, 2 car batteries and two emergency lighting 65 amp batteries in parallel. They are/were good batteries however.

Aking,
I hope you don't have all those different batteries in parallel while charging them, that is a bad and dangerous way to charge batteries.
If the terminal voltages are different there is no telling what will happen including batteries trying to charge each other.  What is going to happen if one battery has a terminal voltage of say 8 volts while another one has 12V terminal voltage, have you thought about it?


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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in a way I don't really know what to do here .. you see I posted this as part of something else , I fully understand folks grabbing hold and wanting to F'about with it, I did myself !
The arduino ... been there ! much ,long ago  still I'm sure AC can make a better fist of it than I did ! here's a radio ham considering that route A.C

http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b1/max.pdf

I really didn't want to f about with batteries at all but I guess like sticking your tongue in a wall socket its a phase that  has  to gone through ! I think its got to be better that I stand back and let er roll ! having said that here's a few things I considered to stay series/overtone  resonant ... get creative!

http://danstrother.com/elysium/


http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/diy-induction-heater.htm

kind regards Duncan



« Last Edit: 2015-04-13, 18:20:28 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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your highness Aking .. go series .. charge 1 battery 10 or 20 same current same cost!  http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/store/free-energy/reverse-your-electric-meter-legally NB USE DECENT CAPS ! MOTOR RUN IS GOOD BE AWARE HV CAPS AND POSSIBLE HUGE CURRENT & HIGH VOLTAGE DC ... CAN BE A KILLER just LIKE CROSSING THE ROAD  please be careful but not afraid


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

Group: Experimentalist
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your highness Aking .. go series .. charge 1 battery 10 or 20 same current same cost!  http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/store/free-energy/reverse-your-electric-meter-legally NB USE DECENT CAPS ! MOTOR RUN IS GOOD BE AWARE HV CAPS AND POSSIBLE HUGE CURRENT & HIGH VOLTAGE DC ... CAN BE A KILLER just LIKE CROSSING THE ROAD  please be careful but not afraid

Duncan,
The same current yes, but why would you think it would be the same cost?   1 Batt 12V 1A= 12W, 10 batts 120V 1A= 120W or 1 Batt 10 Ah to charge 10 Batts 100Ah to charge. I don't see any cost savings, you are going to pay for the charging no matter how you do it.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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Hi room kinda depends how you view magnetic current ! tptb would like you to think batteries and everything else for that matter is from the grid . It isn't ring  ask grummage and see what happens when you charge a battery sitting on granite ! or if you like take two batteries put one on concrete and one on wood then test them both a week later.
this thread will run its course but I think you'll find that once resonance is established 1 or 10 or 100 batteries will charge and run an inverter looped. that's the gist of john saves energy and wiseman  as for my own experience , wouldn't know C.C ... you are not charging batteries here you are energising them ! you charge batteries with DC .. anyway its much better that folks do their own conclusions room .. I might be seeing something askew

kind regards Duncan

 


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

Group: Experimentalist
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Hi room kinda depends how you view magnetic current ! tptb would like you to think batteries and everything else for that matter is from the grid . It isn't ring  ask grummage and see what happens when you charge a battery sitting on granite ! or if you like take two batteries put one on concrete and one on wood then test them both a week later.
this thread will run its course but I think you'll find that once resonance is established 1 or 10 or 100 batteries will charge and run an inverter looped. that's the gist of john saves energy and wiseman  as for my own experience , wouldn't know C.C ... you are not charging batteries here you are energising them ! you charge batteries with DC

 

Duncan,
I've known that about batteries since the early 70's, even run some tests for a company I worked for, they just happened to manufacture Battery Chargers. I was interested in OU free energy or what ever you want to call it back then and I just happened to work in R&D with full labs etc. I never found any excess energy in any batteries I worked with. As far as resonance in batteries, I don't believe that you understand what resonance is and how it works, so talking about it is moot. You seem to have a number of erroneous ideas, but I give you credit for putting them out there.  I would recommend more study on these subjects before posting though if I were you.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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we will just have to agree to disagree for the time being room . my picture of resonance is certainly very different to many. but there is reason behind it and I think I'm at the right place to have it looked at! I'm not prepared to get involved in all that who knows what bollix anymore . its a capacitor a  few buggered batteries   $5 try it! simple as, It'll fix the batteries anyway
kind regards  Duncan


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Buy me a cigar
Dear All.

The attached picture should show the way forward !!  ;)

Left hand Wattmeter 3.4 W capacitive charging. Right hand Wattmeter 21.6 W on identical 7 Ah 12 V Gel cells.

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Grum,

A what are we looking at here?
I think we need some explanation.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   

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Buy me a cigar
Grum,

A what are we looking at here?
I think we need some explanation.

Dear Room3327.

My apologies. L hand battery being charged capacitively. R hand battery being charged with a conventional, bog standard 12 V charger. If nothing else there is an 18 W saving !! Not that it would matter too much to AC, as his electricity is dirt cheap by comparison to UK standards !!  :)

Cheers Grum. 


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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room I do get a bit pissed with people lining up to try and take a bite ! I've just been accused of insulting someone (which I didn't) but I was very blunt! and so is he! I don't see why the basic laws of energy should be re-written ad-hock and presented to me de-facto twice. anyway regarding this ...

 1 Batt 12V 1A= 12W, 10 batts 120V 1A= 120W or 1 Batt 10 Ah to charge 10 Batts  

This is an understandable  way of thinking Its how your conditioned to think,(me too) you will hang onto this with every fibre of your being . I suggest its wrong and power (real power that is in phase watts) is not required to charge batteries . it takes a huge shift to accept that even as a possibility but please stop trying to shoot the messenger.
you quote watts above ... they are not required! only amps and time are required ,LA batteries are rated in amp/hours never watts. watts are meaningless anyway they are only one component of energy. Still the tests and story will unfold as it should .  if I'm wrong there's plenty of others ready to have a dig I'm sure but one can but try
Kind regards Duncan




---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 651
Dear Room3327.

My apologies. L hand battery being charged capacitively. R hand battery being charged with a conventional, bog standard 12 V charger. If nothing else there is an 18 W saving !! Not that it would matter too much to AC, as his electricity is dirt cheap by comparison to UK standards !!  :)

Cheers Grum. 

Dear Grumage,
Savings? I think that has yet to be determined, if both batteries had the same amount of energy drained out of them at the start of the test and their very comparable batteries, I think what you will find is the one on the capacitive charger will take longer to replace the charge then the regular charger. That is all, what ever amp hours were drained have to be replenished and it will take whatever time is necessary depending on the amount of energy they are receiving. So I would bet the normal charger will win in terms of time for the same amount of charging and energy delivered..

Cheers


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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Hi grum you wont really see a great deal of difference in the two charging methods ,capacitive energising is more efficient and it does bring them back from the dead that's what's being investigated . you wont see anything much of >COP1 with that set up so don't expect much,
get near resonance which is a very narrow band on the curve and its a very different story, what are you measuring there anyway? are the pulling the same current?


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 651
room I do get a bit pissed with people lining up to try and take a bite ! I've just been accused of insulting someone (which I didn't) but I was very blunt! and so is he! I don't see why the basic laws of energy should be re-written ad-hock and presented to me de-facto twice. anyway regarding this ...

 1 Batt 12V 1A= 12W, 10 batts 120V 1A= 120W or 1 Batt 10 Ah to charge 10 Batts  

This is an understandable  way of thinking Its how your conditioned to think,(me too) you will hang onto this with every fibre of your being . I suggest its wrong and power (real power that is in phase watts) is not required to charge batteries . it takes a huge shift to accept that even as a possibility but please stop trying to shoot the messenger.
you quote watts above ... they are not required! only amps and time are required ,LA batteries are rated in amp/hours never watts. watts are meaningless anyway they are only one component of energy. Still the tests and story will unfold as it should .  if I'm wrong there's plenty of others ready to have a dig I'm sure but one can but try
Kind regards Duncan




I'm not in the que so don't get excited, but one thing I do not agree with you on is I do not believe the pioneers in the past were a bunch of morons and nothing they did for us was worth doodly, like you. Even if they weren't 100% right they got us to this point, I loose respect for anyone calling the pioneers morons it only shows your lack of knowledge.

Cheers :)


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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I certainly don't regard the early pioneers as moron's very far from it!


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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*****

Posts: 1083
@Room3327
Quote
Savings? I think that has yet to be determined, if both batteries had the same amount of energy drained out of them at the start of the test and their very comparable batteries, I think what you will find is the one on the capacitive charger will take longer to replace the charge then the regular charger. That is all, what ever amp hours were drained have to be replenished and it will take whatever time is necessary depending on the amount of energy they are receiving. So I would bet the normal charger will win in terms of time for the same amount of charging and energy delivered..

I think there are a few thinks to consider, first a normal battery charger cannot charge a sulfated battery only the capacitive charger can as I have proven for myself. Second it does take longer however I2R losses are also greatly reduced thus the energy input is less than normal. Let's face reality here, the transformer alone probably dissipates 10-20% of the energy at idle let alone when it is charging a battery. So no the normal charger cannot win because it has greater losses and quite frankly does not work on older sulfated batteries. In a perfect world they may be comparable however that is not the world we live in.

AC


---------------------------
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.
   
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@ lost bro
Quote
Sounds like a winner!  I have a stack of deep cycle/ car batteries outback that would do for the experiment.
Could you post the schematic or a link to the schematic that is being used for the charger?
It would be appreciated.

Right now I am simply using a 24-25v 11A power supply which I have rigged for AC or DC output. The AC series cap before the FWBR does limit current on the AC side before the FWBR however at 25v pulsed DC is seems to be doing the trick on my small 12v/5 Ah batteries. I tried the 120v AC, series cap circuit on a larger battery and it seems to be working however I'm not quite ready to leave it on it's own for hours at a time until I have some better controls setup.

This is the circuit which Duncan posted that I am testing as well as using a DC power supply with no smoothing capacitor.

AC


---------------------------
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

Be careful when you blindly follow the Masses... sometimes the "M" is silent.
   
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Quote
you quote watts above ... they are not required! only amps and time are required ,LA batteries are rated in amp/hours never watts. watts are meaningless anyway they are only one component of energy.

Another ridiculous statement to add to the compendium. A Watt is not a "component of energy" and is not meaningless at all. A Watt is a RATE. One Watt is one Joule of energy PER SECOND of time, passing your point of measurement. And it's not "Amp/hours" which means amps per hour, or amps divided by hours, which is meaningless gobbledegook, since the Ampere itself is a _rate_, with units Coulombs PER second -- a rate of a quantity of electrical charge moving past a measurement point during a unit of time. Battery capacity is rated in VOLTS and AMP-HOURS, that is, volts x amps x time, which if you bother to do the math on the units, comes out to JOULES of energy, and the data plate capacity is true only under certain specified discharge conditions -- specified RATES of discharge of the Joules of energy contained in the battery. And what is the definition of the unit of the RATE of energy discharge? What is Joules Per Second?

There is much more to object to in statements from that same source, but what's the point? This _isn't_ a scientific forum, after all.
   
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