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Author Topic: current limiting capacitive battery charger  (Read 28383 times)

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Another ridiculous statement to add to the compendium. A Watt is not a "component of energy" and is not meaningless at all. A Watt is a RATE. One Watt is one Joule of energy PER SECOND of time, passing your point of measurement. And it's not "Amp/hours" which means amps per hour, or amps divided by hours, which is meaningless gobbledegook, since the Ampere itself is a _rate_, with units Coulombs PER second -- a rate of a quantity of electrical charge moving past a measurement point during a unit of time. Battery capacity is rated in VOLTS and AMP-HOURS, that is, volts x amps x time, which if you bother to do the math on the units, comes out to JOULES of energy, and the data plate capacity is true only under certain specified discharge conditions -- specified RATES of discharge of the Joules of energy contained in the battery. And what is the definition of the unit of the RATE of energy discharge? What is Joules Per Second?

There is much more to object to in statements from that same source, but what's the point? This _isn't_ a scientific forum, after all.
Not many people know what the AH rating on a battery means,or how that figure is set.Flooded lead acid batteries have a different AH discharge rating than that of deep cycle batteries. Deep cycle batteries normally have a 20HR discharge rate,while flooded lead acid batteries have a 10HR discharge rate,as they were designed to put out a lot of current over a short period of time. Even then,flooded lead acid batteries will normally have a CCA rating,and not a discharge HR rating.

Deep cycle AH formula.
On a deep cycle you will have an AH and a HR value.
EG.if the AH is say 7.2,and the HR is 20,you divide 7.2 by 20(AH/HR). This give you your discharge current over the 20HR time.
So in this case the battery AH rate has been calculated by drawing a current of 360mA over 20 hours.

So that is the formula.
7.2/20=360mA over 20 hours for this 7.2 AH battery.


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TK if that energy is composed of reactive current AKA Ir x Voltage then the Total Power is then KVAr  This in other schools of thought is known as resonance . At resonance no energy is transformed.  It is clear that I am talking of batteries and the resonant component of their charge cycle , That resonant component is greatly increased by not sticking a transformer winding across the charger as AC suspected . Still to be absolutely clear of what I am saying In the example cited no 'real power' (measured in Watts or Joules as you wish) is used in the transformation . (or at least it would not be if perfect resonance were maintained) The effect is far more predominant with more batteries and higher voltage because of the Q factor. In a nutshell then I tell you VAr can energise batteries and that being the case watts do not enter the equation.
For those with a radio view of things, spin the silly little one capacitor circuit around 90Deg in you head . now view one of the mains feeds , the neutral to be precise, strapped to ground which it is (hence Clarence is using lots and lots of earth rods) The other mains feed  the phase to be precise is connected  to the grid which it is of course.
This next bit might rock the boat a little bit because your used to parallel resonance and not Series resonance and your boundary is usually tied to 50 ohms to ground by design  
Still you are aware of the importance of a very high Q factor, exact frequency , and drift . With very little alteration to this energiser circuit you have this thing with the 'controler' supplying the beat (50hz 60hz whatever) probably many KHz knowing Tesla's style..



I hope that gives a glimmer of the importance of the Q factor (that transformers don't help) and why the COP>1 effect is mainly across the series resonant portion of the charge curve. Its only a start I know but I had to let the dogs see the rabbit somehow. If it were 'perfect resonance' all .. every last milli amp of current  would come from the ground .. No watts at all!  but nothings perfect! looking at the battery as a receiver (which it is of course) the SWR should be infinity,  It is the bulls eye of the target and I am sure we should be aiming for it. Still I've had pages of lecture on scientific rigour and wot not . As AC says its hard to argue with something that works as presented and described !! now get your pry bar in there and find out why ! There's a lovely little green and blue ball that needs help very quickly !  



 


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@ tinman .. re deep cycle not many people ..et al .. no dispute with any of that ! 100% correct as far as I'm concerned . your point being ?


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whilst we know little .. friends remember,
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@ tinman .. re deep cycle not many people ..et al .. no dispute with any of that ! 100% correct as far as I'm concerned . your point being ?
My point being-->information for those that dont know, that may wish to conduct a controlled run down test of a cap charged battery. O0


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as in charge times, on identical batteries w.r.t 'real power'  and then controlled and measured dis-charge  for a direct efficiency % comparison? Its a difficult measuring prospect for me especially with capacitive reactance involved and just one battery my equipment isn't up to making a decent fist of it (not with just one battery anyway)I know it isn't.
Wiseman's approach was to adjust the capacitance on a whole bank of batteries ( switching a capacitor bank ) for maximum current whilst watching his house meter for minimum spin (crude but effective I guess) of course he had a different vista to consider. He also found his   'sweet spots'  after many runs also keeping in mind this set up is his daily runner and how he power's his farm.
kind regards Duncan



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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Thanks all for your concern.  I do take precautions, but I am not being particularly scientific with this system, just happy that it charges well.
My question to Duncan is; has anyone used this system to power an electric kettle or other heavy duty device?
If  so, what was the system and results?

keep on experimenting.


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Hi Aking  that it sorts batteries is enough for one day. but yes there is evidence it can drive loads as you suggest whole houses even. The evidence is on the 3BGS thread and George wisemans site . there's many variables involved and by far and away the most important is series resonance. measurements ?  pointless as every batteries different and constantly changing so Crystal structure is variable. ... that's my take anyway I was looking for series resonance in that video because I knew it had to be there.


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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further >Aking The state of parallel resonance is the one we all know , you can see it! The instruments detect it! many seem determined  not to focus on what I am writing and showing . I have shown that there are two resonances . series and parallel . only one of those can you see directyl with  instruments . parallel ! series resonance you can't see, you may think putting a very low resistance in series and scoping across it as you saw tinman do would indicate series resonance . Its what the books say and its what every technician including me has done for ever and ever but its a false Idol
The only way I know its false is because like the battery had to be resonant somewhere, so there  had to be a loophole in the basic mathematics of electricity which indicate that something is being completely missed and there is.
Before  I make any attempt to try and describe that a good idea of how resonance  is viewed right now is required . With that in hand the theory of what series resonance is actually doing and why reactive current has such a very different effect to anything else can be explored and exploited.
One of out members gotoluc produced a series of video's on resonance it had a profound effect on my approach and thinking . Not directly from what I was watching but the implications of the mathematical make up of the wave you can't see or measure .
For your education and enjoyment I suggest you watch gotoluc's series , notice how sharp the resonant points are !! within the crystal of a LA battery its much sharper and shifting! any  o'l capacitor won't hack it! But it has given you a sign post. also sulphate crystals are far from ideal .. to variable by far ! but again its an indication for you! This is one of four I strongly suggest you watch all of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQhvh3wd2I0

Kind regards Duncan

 


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Interesting vid by Gotuluc.
I had to chuckle, because that's exactly the system Don Smith used in his Japanese vending machines to produce AC
that the rest of the electronics could see. He did it in order to create an inverter without transistors. I know it's a controversial
subject, but I think Don Smith is a genius. As he said, nothing to go wrong.
BTW still using the cap charger and will do so until something better comes along . lol


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VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   
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@Aking
I'm still plugging away as well and the cap charger is 3 for 3 in bringing my dead un-chargable batteries back from the dead. All of them now take charge and hold it and it's a good thing I didn't exchange any of my old batteries when buying new ones. The damn thing just works... no doubt about it.

Edit: I should also note that the battery conditioning effect would seem to be due to the 120 Hz pulsed input at 2 to 3 times the rest voltage of the battery. That is the input voltage is relatively high relative to a standard charger however the current is relatively low as is the power because the input is pulsed. As such the series capacitor in a higher voltage circuit simply limits the current producing the same high voltage/low current pulsed power producing the conditioning effect.

AC
« Last Edit: 2015-04-16, 06:40:13 by Allcanadian »


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AC there's much bigger fish to fry

I  have got the dubious task of explaining how 'nothing ' can be engineered  from the vacuum of free space and to do so I must start with an electrical ''something' I an an engineer not a scientist  I have been trained to make things work . These things are in my head as pictures they form step functions. the pictures in turn are supported by mathematics . Because all my working life has been practical if it doesn't work it gets jettisoned or altered. if it does work a pretty good idea of why has been sought from my mentors. If it does unknown unpredictable things like this (for instance) 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHs14ZTo96M

Them ear tectors was a big help!

I try my damnedest to find out why. I still do the job. But I'm aware its an iffy situation with 'unknowns' and I think about those 'unknowns' The reason you are using the cap charger at all AC is because its part of a jigsaw remember? please watch this video again then consider the questions I pose

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQhvh3wd2I0
 
Gotoluc is demonstrating resonance here, his oscilloscope is giving a pictorial image of voltage,. You see a saw tooth and a square wave and a sine wave all demonstrating resonance . Ask yourself these questions and resolve the answer with trigonometry and maths  if you don't know the answers find out we are going where instruments and measurists can't go or see anything, you need to see with your head.. its important if you like Don Smith he did !

That waveform is representative of 'something' its a package in fact Hams and Radio guys sometimes call a part of that resonant waveform an envelope as in 'peak envelope power' PEP. DS was a ham he'd know all about PEP his licence depended on it! The 'something' you are looking at here then has a boundary of voltage , you can't see current, or power, never mind energy! but you know it must be in the envelope Here then some questions to ask yourself
1/ If a square wave , sine wave , or saw tooth waveform transform into a resonant curve will other wave forms ?
2 / You watched Gotoluc transform symmetrical waveforms would any waveform be transformed into a sine wave?
3/All the waveforms you see have a boundary of voltage what is contained under that curve ? In other words were you to integrate the area under that curve what would it relate to ?
4/In trigometric theory how many forms and shapes can be constructed from a Sine wave?
5/ considering infinity and the infinite. Is the Sine wave constructed of the infinitesimal unto infinity residue of the cosine and visa – versa ?
6/As silly measurists look at the very pale representation that an oscilloscope offers of what's actually happening, ask yourself this,  is it possible to produce a perfect Sine wave or square wave ?
7/ If the void that you see under these waveforms were to be filled with 'white noise' stochastic background or simply what you regard as radiant energy (all the same thing)  would the randomness be given form by resonance.?
8/I have hypothesised  for you that a simple capacitor will do all and much more than all the so called 'rejuvenators' and explained the difference between series and parallel resonance . One is a wave . And one is an impulse. If I bang a drum , like your eardrum what is that?
9/please look at this video again ,
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w

It is clear to see there is resonance occurring you see pattern's forming by fundamental and then harmonics (if you like parallel resonance) or fundamental and then overtones  (if you like series resonance.) Work out which it is for yourself Its your question  The generator might have a  picture of a wave but what's happening at the coal face? A big hint might be a loud speaker used to be called a transducer!
 (Take a great big breath think dustifier and  Ponder who's to sit on the naughty step!)
10/ So far you are considering a partially understood phenomena (electro-magnetics) in the only dimension you have been taught .. parallel resonance and volts and amps and wot,not now we need to turn it inside out  and look at the vacuum. Is there anything in a vacuum in outer space so we can connect our wheelwork ?
Kind regards Duncan

   


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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I am not certain however this man was sharing "his friends"[your post ??] design [similar clam shell configuration]
however it seemed his drive yoke spring was loading opposite of the claim [spring should have unrung if it were true]

http://www.overunity.com/15585/-magnet-motor-drives-generator-for-free-juice/#.VS_KoDN0wok

* I did try to contact this man [above OU.COM link]and he did not respond. .I believe "businessman" Memoryman at OU.COM
did speak with him ...I must reiterate the mans Video above is NOT the inventor ..just a replicator.
« Last Edit: 2015-04-16, 16:49:20 by Chet K »
   
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Hi chet it was more his basic background theory I was reading ,particularly his view on the vacuum, whilst I can understand how synchronous motor winding might push a motor into the electrostatic operating area (after all they were used pretty exclusively for PF correction at one time) I haven't  studied his winding methods. I'll have a read through the thread you've linked  me to. still I'm certain crystal structure and electrostatics are key. thanks for digging the link out for me though
kind regards Duncan ps   different guy different machine as you say think that ones BS
« Last Edit: 2015-04-16, 18:32:40 by Duncan »


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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so hopefully you have resolved some of those questions in your head . I am not going to dwell on them I'm not a teacher, all the answers in this case are in classic text and in the maths books. The answers to series resonance isn't, the units are not ,neither are the effects
This time there is no package, no envelope, the vista of the vacuum of free space (in the energy sense) challenges the mind . There are no square waves or saw tooth waves to transform into a sine wave as you watched gotoluc do. An endless 'sameness' that's everywhere . TH Moray described it as like having a bucket of water in a swimming pool and trying to distinguish betwixt the water in the bucket and the water in the pool.
I doubt I can do better but I can try. Those who are over the age of 30 or so no doubt remember CRT computer screens and TVs one or two may even have seen a black and white one ! (yes they did make them) turning on such a set when not tuned to a channel resulted in white noise called by some raster, others static, you might find the plot tedious after an hour or so but it looked like this
  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt3JxA94ZAI

remember it? that is how the electrostatic wave might be viewed all around you  (and through you) in every direction . It is dynamic and changing very fast, however you remain  like most annoyingly oblivious!
That is until you give it form with resonance ! The boundary isn't volts this time because its series resonance its reactive current ! The units are amps reactive Ar you have nothing to effectively measure it . Anymore than you can directly measure amps . (Amps are measured with a voltmeter using ohms law. Ohms law does not apply here there is no linear relationship.)
Amps reactive are nothing like Amps they are like chalk and cheese. All they have in common is the ability to charge lead acid batteries and they both do that in a very different way (as you have seen)
old radio's used to have an aerial and earth connection. Wouldn't work without one here is a picture of such an old banger



and at the back of course the aerial and earth sockets



marked as such


Its the electromagnetic wave … mostly by sky the earth connection doesn't matter much, most people didn't bother connecting it. Its also of course volts (reactive) the CSA of the cable is irrelevant,
Use the other resonance and everything changes!
The Ground becomes very important (hence Clarence's ground rods)
The received medium is not volts reactive but current reactive Ar So the CSA of cable becomes very important!
At one time the battery post connections were disintegrating which looks like melting but of course there's no heat..  The energy of reactive power is transformed directly by means of the crystal structure of sulphate . The energy appears immediately at the plates of the battery there is nothing to measure externally. No volts . No amps. . Nothing for instruments available in this day and age anyway.. That is all! I hope the pieces start to fit for you now  
Kind regards Duncan


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
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duplicate post


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VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   
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Following through on my battery conditioning experiments and there are some interesting observations to be made.

The scope shot below is of a conditioned battery and it should be noted that the max and mean voltage are now very close in value. Here I have added a 125uF cap to limit current to 500mA because the amperage had risen to 4.5 amps without a capacitor in series.

Concerning the process first it was noted that the conditioning effect was not completely dictated by the input connection. That is I would connect my 25v DC supply/FWBR for 30 minutes and the amp draw was low at around 500mA due to sulfation of the plates. One hour later I could connect the supply and amp draw remained the same however 12 hrs later I could connect the supply and the amp draw was now 1.5 amps. This was the case on all three 12v/5Ah batteries and the effect would seem to occur in steps when using a 30 minute charge cycle and a 12 hr rest cycle. It starts at 500mA then it jumps to around 1-1.5A then later jumps to 4-4.5A current draw at which point a series cap was added to limit the current draw. To further clarify the cycle, I connect the supply for only 30 minutes and the amp draw/charge rate remains consistent in a 4 hour period however 12 hrs later the amp draw/charge rate jumps in value to 1-1.5 amps. As such it must be concluded that something is happening in the battery even after the power supply has been disconnected.

In any case the charging rate and ability to hold a charge has increased dramatically in all three test batteries with a minimal input using this 30 minutes on, 12 hr rest period process. It seems to work every time and I am still not exactly sure what could be happening in this 12 hr rest period  which would cause the charge rate to increase considering the supply is not connected.

The next step is to automate the process with a PLC switching in series caps to limit the current based on the max/mean voltage differential, max voltage and current draw.

It works like a damn and I'm happy as hell, soon we may have a simple open source fully automated battery charger/conditioner which actually works on almost any battery. It's in the works.

On a side note this is open source and unlike the finger pointing and whining I saw concerning the slayer circuits which were not actually his to begin with I expect people to steal my idea's and sell them for profit... hell I encourage it. This is because it was never about me it was about progress and if it makes the world a better place in some small way then I'm all for it.

AC
« Last Edit: 2015-04-17, 23:49:48 by Allcanadian »


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good man AC ! be at it!! you'll want to know why it works as well (eventually) ,I know I did , You'll find it fascinating and slap bang centre court of fellow Canadian John Hutchinson's awesome forehand. a friend of another of mine you'll remember PT Pappas. I guess I should step back as I neither want to blindly build Clarence's rendition nor interfere with your battery enjoyment.
Kind regards Duncan



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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
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Object  
to prove any cell other than lead acid can also be restored by series capacitive discharge

apparatus
1N4003 or equiv , 2 off 47 K ohm resistors,  2 off 1 M ohm resistors, 2 off 1000mfd capacitors 1 neon bulb, two crocodile clips, one push button, one duff cell ( extracted from an offending battery having tested as the culprit)

circuit scribble (can't dignify this as diagram)



Method
connect the circuit which is essentially the same as LA Battery energiser used differently as shown in the diagram being aware of operating voltages and tolerances of the components. The circuit shown is for  110v line if using 230v adjust the component values and rating accordingly. Like all mains equipment it is potentially lethal! If you don't know what your doing and if you don't know what part each component is playing  here when described.  stay well away from it.
The idea is to do exactly the same thing you have seen energising lead acid cells to other flavours of cell. Ni-Cads and their ilk. The IN4003 is a half wave bridge rectifier (use a bridge if its what you have to hand.)
The circuit will charge both capacitors via the two current limiting 47Kohm resistors and the neon bulb until a voltage of approx 80 volts is reached at which time the neon bulb will strike.
The lit bulb will indicate sufficient charge unto your needs to deal with a single cell. Press the button and transfer the stored energy into the cell for transformation. Where in the LA battery dielectric breakdown can be relied on in this case manual intervention is required … push the button!
When the cell energises put it back in the battery pack then use it and charge it normally.
The 1 Meg ohm resistors are something of a safety precaution to prevent the caps remaining charged use what you have that's up there. These cells have a very low internal resistance if wished Zap the whole battery .. I don't do that to mine but none paying guests (of which there are many) just get Zapped !  job done!                           

Result
Much more use out of happy batteries. Cleaner planet, More pennies in my pocket!
« Last Edit: 2015-04-18, 15:19:28 by Duncan »


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Duncan:  Here's how to make good diagrams using paint which I do also.
From the great man himself

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6inBL3f13E


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lol strange you pull that aking I was doing some work for Patrick and edits and examples passed between us . I like scribble Patrick don't . he hosted those lessons years ago because of my woeful drawing. some fell on stony ground !  ;D I might look see just to make the o'l boy proud ... thanks Aking 


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How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Everyman decries immorality
A thread from 2011 that might be of interest to members that are looking to rebrand themselves as philanthropist's:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/pulse-desulfators/

A nice superimposed battery draw down graph provided by user sonicj for those that want to test actual real world performance.

And another nice little resource forum for your experiments:

http://leadacidbatterydesulfation.yuku.com/directory#.VTKfGZNmiSo


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@EA

Those were my thoughts exactly and to make a meaningful comparison a load test is required. In hindsight I should have plotted the load test at each charge step ie. 500mA, 1A and 4A or Voltage max/mean differential.

I have a question for everyone here while setting up the hardware and code for the controller. Would you prefer a standard 12v input for the charger such as a wall wart or second 12v battery possibly connected to a standard charger or a 120v input?. I have a preference for a 12v input to the controller which is more universal as we can still use a 120/220v wall wart for our input. As well my latest design incorporates the conditioning of two batteries using the same controller by alternating the charge direction ie. the 12v input becomes the output on the next 30 minute charge cycle. This only requires a 2 relay Arduino based relay shield at an extra cost of about $2.43 with free shipping on Ebay.

This makes more sense to me because then large battery banks can be conditioned by simply connecting the charger/conditioner across and two batteries in the bank versus a HV series charger.

AC


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Further to Duncan's insistance that lead acid batteries have a resonance, it is well known that the current through the electrolyte occurs by ion movement.  This is quite slow, so if you apply a sudden step voltage charge there will be some time delay before the current gets established.  This is unlike current through a conductor like copper where, although the actual electron drift is also slow, the voltage step travels very fast because there are free electrons everywhere.  In the cell the ions are created at the plates.

Now current that lags voltage is a feature of inductive reactance, so the cells will exhibit inductance-like characteristics.  And with a series capacitance there will be a resonance.  Maybe this is obvious to those who have experimented with cells, but it was not obvious to me until I had my brainwave.  The fact that the resonance is associated with ionic movement could explain why it is so variable since electrochemistry comes into play as well as the plate separation distance.  And the time delay is related to voltage across the plates so it is not like any old inductance, it is a special form of inductance-like characteristic.

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Posts: 246
Duncan re resonance:  Maybe Dave Lawton's phase locked loop circuit is the answer. He used it to replicate Stanley Meyer's  HHO device.
The water capacitor was difficult to keep in resonance hence the PLL circuit. It obviously needs some modification.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-jcfRFC-Uo

http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/media/custom/upload/File-1352789971.pdf

Maybe if you want to start a builder's thread somewhere, it might catch on.  ie" keep the battery in resonance" idea.


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VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   
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