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Author Topic: Bedini 10-Coil Alternative Discussion  (Read 66449 times)
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Hi MileHigh,

Haha, I wasn't even asking for a 'test' as such really just clarification on how much output he was getting in his current configuration.
What he posted and others was very vague and I just wanted the results from the horses mouth.

So I proposed a simple experiment:

Hook a watt meter up in between the inverter and the load. Slowly add more load each day until you start to see the system loosing voltage - remove the last load you added.
Bingo. Read watt meter and you have a rough figure of the usable output from the machine. Now we improve! Yay!

There are many many ways to prove the system works, but as no free energy device has ever sat through a proper independent test, I don't see this one going through that process anytime soon.  :)

You seem pretty sure this doesn't work, so please present your reasons why (other than theoretical)?
Have you heard any reports of other people who have built large bedini machines?

Thanks,

Ozy



   
Group: Guest
Ozy,

Just another comment where we can safely make some assumptions about the grid-tie inverter.  If we had the model number we could look it up.  Ask Jeff if he can give you the manufacturer and model number.

We are going to assume that it is a medium to high-end device.  That means it's display can already tell you how many watts it is providing to the load, the power factor, the total number of joules (or watt-hours), etc.  Almost certainly for a varying source battery voltage it can maintain a rock-solid 120 VAC under load as long as the battery power doesn't croak under the strain.

We can safely assume the grid-tie inverter is a very smart device and a Kill-a-Watt meter would be redundant.  Knowing the model number would likely confirm my assumptions.

As far as Jeff's last clip goes, it was all anecdotal evidence.  He showed it pumping 60 watts of power into his home grid for a minute, so what?  Jeff explained that the device "listens" to the mains voltage in the house.  If it drops a few percent then it pumps current into the L1 power line.  Okay, so if that's the case, is the device recording the monthly number of joules it pumped into the line?  Did Jeff correlate that with his electric bill?  There are too many unanswered questions and all of the evidence is anecdotal.

In Jeff's grid-tie clip all that you really saw was a grid-tie inverter drawing power from presumably charged batteries pumping some power into his L1 home power line.  There was no evidence at all that the 10-coiler was doing anything to support this activity.

The only way to prove that the 10-coiler and the battery swapper add value is to suck much more energy out of the battery banks than the batteries hold.  If Jeff claims that he has overcome the conservation of energy, then he has to prove it.  Also, 25 days is nothing.  It's just three weeks and change, a blink of an eye.  If Jeff puts out a clip roughly every two months, why can't he run a test to see if his setup works?

MileHigh
   
Group: Guest
Hi Ozy,

Quote
Hook a watt meter up in between the inverter and the load. Slowly add more load each day until you start to see the system loosing voltage - remove the last load you added.
Bingo. Read watt meter and you have a rough figure of the usable output from the machine. Now we improve! Yay!

You are missing the point here.  What you are testing in your test is the power output capability of the inverter under load.  Secondarily you are testing the ability of the battery bank to supply the required current to the inverter so the inverter can do its job.

This indeed will show you what the maximum power output from the device is.  That's one specification, but it's a secondary specification.

You can't forget, this is supposed to be an over unity machine, that's what Jeff is saying.  He is saying to you and everyone else that the battery banks can recharge each other indefinitely by using the 10-coiler to move energy from one bank to the other and vice-versa.  Something "magic" is supposed to happen with the 10-coiler that makes extra energy appear in the batteries.  That is the reason you want to buy this machine and that's the primary specification that we are missing.  How much continuous power can it put out 24/7 non-stop where you have extracted at least 10 times the amount of energy that the batteries contain at the start of a test run.  Nothing else is acceptable.  That's why you have to test it like I stated.

Quote
You seem pretty sure this doesn't work, so please present your reasons why

The reason it's not going to work is because a typical Bedini motor only transfers about 30% of the source battery energy to the charging battery when you run it for a certain amount of time.  70% of the source battery energy is lost as heat and never makes it to the charging battery.  The 10-coiler almost certainly has similar performance.  The reality is that it is a commonly held belief that the charging battery somehow has extra energy in it that comes "from the vacuum."  I have never seen any hard numbers from any Bedini experimenters over the past three years proving this allegation of extra energy, have you?  There is no logical reason to expect that the chemical energy in a battery magically increases above and beyond the energy that is put into it when the battery charging energy source is a series of inductive current spikes from a discharging inductor.

MileHigh
   
Group: Guest
Boy u can type!

In the video I never saw a LCD screen on the inverter, so thats why I was pushing the watt meter so much.
Also, he claims it has saved him money off electricity bill right? = running all the time = +watt meter = daily results.
He tells us the watt total and the battery voltage, we can all watch in awe!  See simple.

I agree a proper test would be ideal. But my idea was to use baby steps.

 The 10-coiler almost certainly has similar performance.
This is an assumption...  :( 

There is no such thing as magic, magic is a word used to describe something you do not understand.

If this is real then surely someone else will be able to replicate and we might finally get our answers.

Who knows, if Jeff/Bits pulls his finger out of his ass and his ego out of the clouds and gives me some simple answers, that person may even be me!



Ozy
   
Group: Guest
Hi Ozy,

It's a reasonable assumption of around 30% for the 10-coiler's efficiency in transferring the average power supplied by the source battery and turning that into average power that is being pumped into the charging battery.  It is fundamentally no different from any other Bedini motor.

I am willing to bet you that if you asked Jeff or Rick what the power transfer efficiency was they wouldn't know anyways.  It's not easy to measure either so the average experimenter would have to read the Bedini measurement thread on this web site to do it properly.

I get the feeling that Jeff has never tried to do a serious test along the lines that I am discussing.  Look at the example of Rick making an entrance in a converted lawn mower running on a window motor.  I read several statements to the effect that this could also run indefinately with battery bank swapping.  So if people witnessed it run for 20 minutes why should they believe that the claim about the converted lawnmower was true?  People on the forums have to have the courage to ask the real questions.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-25, 03:12:51 by MileHigh »
   
Group: Guest


I just want to make another brief point.  All of your questions to Jeff and other people on EF are valid.  Jeff has a military background and he knows that every single piece of electronic equipment he worked with had a full set of specifications provided by the manufacturer or the system integrator without exception.  By the same token Ash trying to imply that you have to "buy in" to the technology to learn to use it and then perhaps you can join the "question club" is preposterous.  $10,000 USD is real money and you have every right to ask questions about the performance and specifications of some sort of integrated 10-coiler plus inverter setup.  Any person with common sense would agree with this.  In fact, like I stated earlier in the thread, they should release an official .pdf document with the specifications and any order placed with them should include the published specifications as the performance criteria that they have to meet.  If they can't meet the published performance criteria then you should have a full right of refund.  Do not order anything from them without all of this on paper.

MileHigh


I absolutely agree with this.  
   
Group: Guest
Ozy,

I am going to respond to Jeff's posting:

Quote
Oh good God, Ozy, here is the information you want, the grid tie inverter puts out 210W of continuos power @ 120 V with a 24 volt input. This device scales up and down accordingly based on the input voltage level. This means the output can swing between .5 and 1.2 amps. Didn't I say this before. DONT WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND A MATH PROBLEM HERE or you'll miss out. This is my device, yours will be different. If you continue to focus only on the Grid Tie's output, you'll miss the excess energy that I take from the radiant output of the 10 coiler and pipe that back into the battery swapper to recharge the drive batterys of the 10 coilers input. You'll also miss out on the kenetic energy the wheel is developing (how ever this has not been tapped in my setup) The input of the 10 coiler draws any where from 2 to 3.5 amps @ 24V in the sweet spot. Once again DONT WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND A MATH PROBLEM HERE, each 10 coiler is different, you may get adequate charging at 1 amp. You may also run the input at 36V which then changes these parameters totally. Now go procure a 10 coiler and begin to test. Don't lose site that I have not even begun to stack more batts on the output (which will change the output figures drastically). Here is the most important point that you need to WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND, "Radiant Spikes" on the output can often times exceed 1000V, but lets use the 1000V as a figure. All Batts on the output "Feel" this delta no matter what configuration, however, the closer you get to this 1000V mark, your "delta" gets smaller, less charging effect. I know that you probably just missed this point so I am going to repeat it. If my batts are configured for 24V on the output, then the batts "Feel" a radiant spike of 1000 - 24 = 976V. However if these batts are configured for 48V, then 1000V - 48 = 952V. I am only using these numbers for illustrative purposes. Yor machine will be different in the way that you have "Tuned" it. Didn't I say this before? This is the reason why you think that I am giving you the run around, I am not. Here is what is going to happen, you and many others will take these numbers that I have just given to you albeit for ILLUSTRATIVE ONLY purposes, and you are going to shout to the world these are the outputs of the 10 coiler and my setup. If you do, I reserve the right to put this post before the same and say "I told you so". LISTEN to what I am telling you, the key is a properly tuned machine, to attain the largest "Radiant Spikes" on the output, with the least draw on the input. With the abilty to also use my battery swapper in this scenario and capture the radiant sikes into my cap pulser, I am able to run the machine self sustained. Going forward, I am attempting to run this machine with no batts. Should I get this working (and I will) what will be the claim then?? This will be the last I say on this to you. Heed the advice of Aaron and take this to the 10 coiler thread. Stop the bashing Ozy, you are wearing out your welcome.

Jeff gave you the spec for the output capability for the inverter he is using.  That's fine, but like I said before that's a secondary issue.

Jeff seems to want you and others to not "WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND A MATH PROBLEM" but the truth is that's what this device is all about, the performance numbers and specifications.

As far as his device being "different" from yours, let's take a look at this.  Why not assume that you have a system with the same 10-coiler, grid-tie inverter, battery swapper, and cap pulser.  That's a reasonable assumption, they are not going to change these components.  The only possible variable is the battery banks.  So either you use car batteries or deep-cycle golf cart batteries.  Batteries are a commodity item and they can be bought simply based on their specifications, regular or deep-cycle and the ampere-hour rating.  It would be very easy to define a standard configuration for the two battery banks and go from there and base the continuous power output specification on using the same battery bank configuration.  So there is no major "difference" that makes it insurmountable to quote the specifications for Jeff's setup.  He just has to quote the standard battery bank configuration that he is using that the specifications are based on.

The "kenetic energy the wheel is developing" is just a "Bedini-ism," it's almost a meaningless statement.  Bedini says "the kinetic energy is free" but that's not really true and that can be confirmed through testing.

Whether the setup runs at 24-volts or 36-volts is almost irrelevant.  The inverter will draw from either DC voltage to convert that into mains power and by the same token the 10-coiler will still charge the battery banks at a rate proportional to the source battery voltage, the RPMs, and the transistor ON time.  We have to assume Jeff's battery swapper can be configured for 12, 24, or 36-volt operation.

""Radiant Spikes" on the output can often times exceed 1000V, but lets use the 1000V as a figure. All Batts on the output "Feel" this delta no matter what configuration, however, the closer you get to this 1000V mark, your "delta" gets smaller, less charging effect. I know that you probably just missed this point so I am going to repeat it. If my batts are configured for 24V on the output, then the batts "Feel" a radiant spike of 1000 - 24 = 976V. However if these batts are configured for 48V, then 1000V - 48 = 952V."

This is the shocking statement.  My best guess is that Jeff was focused exclusively on the battery swapper and he took it for granted that what Rick Friedrich was telling him was gospel truth without checking it out himself.  I am just grasping at straws here because even Rick should not be saying this.  The 10-coiler packs a real current sourcing punch when it outputs a pulse of current into the charging battery bank because each physical coil consists of eight separate coils all discharging in parallel for a very high charging current.  HOWEVER, this current pulse is going into a bank of large batteries.  The voltage rise you see  on the positive terminal of the charging battery bank might go five or ten volts above the nominal +12.6 volts of the battery bank, but no more.  Jeff does not seem to realize that the "1000V" is associated with the coil discharging in a no-load situation.  i.e.; normally you have neons to protect the transistors in this case.  Once you connect the charging battery bank the high voltage spikes disappear.  So there is some kind of major disconnect going on with Jeff and how the 10-coiler actually operates for charging batteries.  Jeff SHOULD KNOW THIS no matter what the case and you can draw your own conclusions here.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-24, 20:58:35 by MileHigh »
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Good Grief!

We've seen this all before. It's a sad repeating pattern of 'scuse the phrase; just plain ignorance.

 ::)

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
Group: Guest
Ozy,

Okay a few more comments on Jeff's statement, copied here again:

Quote
Oh good God, Ozy, here is the information you want, the grid tie inverter puts out 210W of continuos power @ 120 V with a 24 volt input. This device scales up and down accordingly based on the input voltage level. This means the output can swing between .5 and 1.2 amps. Didn't I say this before. DONT WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND A MATH PROBLEM HERE or you'll miss out. This is my device, yours will be different. If you continue to focus only on the Grid Tie's output, you'll miss the excess energy that I take from the radiant output of the 10 coiler and pipe that back into the battery swapper to recharge the drive batterys of the 10 coilers input. You'll also miss out on the kenetic energy the wheel is developing (how ever this has not been tapped in my setup) The input of the 10 coiler draws any where from 2 to 3.5 amps @ 24V in the sweet spot. Once again DONT WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND A MATH PROBLEM HERE, each 10 coiler is different, you may get adequate charging at 1 amp. You may also run the input at 36V which then changes these parameters totally. Now go procure a 10 coiler and begin to test. Don't lose site that I have not even begun to stack more batts on the output (which will change the output figures drastically). Here is the most important point that you need to WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND, "Radiant Spikes" on the output can often times exceed 1000V, but lets use the 1000V as a figure. All Batts on the output "Feel" this delta no matter what configuration, however, the closer you get to this 1000V mark, your "delta" gets smaller, less charging effect. I know that you probably just missed this point so I am going to repeat it. If my batts are configured for 24V on the output, then the batts "Feel" a radiant spike of 1000 - 24 = 976V. However if these batts are configured for 48V, then 1000V - 48 = 952V. I am only using these numbers for illustrative purposes. Yor machine will be different in the way that you have "Tuned" it. Didn't I say this before? This is the reason why you think that I am giving you the run around, I am not. Here is what is going to happen, you and many others will take these numbers that I have just given to you albeit for ILLUSTRATIVE ONLY purposes, and you are going to shout to the world these are the outputs of the 10 coiler and my setup. If you do, I reserve the right to put this post before the same and say "I told you so". LISTEN to what I am telling you, the key is a properly tuned machine, to attain the largest "Radiant Spikes" on the output, with the least draw on the input. With the abilty to also use my battery swapper in this scenario and capture the radiant sikes into my cap pulser, I am able to run the machine self sustained. Going forward, I am attempting to run this machine with no batts. Should I get this working (and I will) what will be the claim then?? This will be the last I say on this to you. Heed the advice of Aaron and take this to the 10 coiler thread. Stop the bashing Ozy, you are wearing out your welcome.

Jeff makes some comments about the "tuning" and how it can be different from one 10-coiler to the other.  He seems to be saying that this will make a difference and because of this you can't compare his performance numbers to anybody else's.  One more time, you are looking at a piece of hardware that is built up from the same components.  They all use the same structure, the same coils, and the same transistors.  As long as the source battery bank voltage is the same then there no reason at all for two copies of the 10-coiler to not run with approximately the same performance.  Jeff talks about "tuning" as if it is some indescribable thing.  You can specify the RPM, the base resistances, the triggering time relative to TDC, the transistor ON time, the average power consumption from the source battery bank, the average power output to the charging battery bank, and so on.  I simply don't accept that you can say a physically identical 10-coiler will be "tuned differently" from someone else's and therefore you can't compare performance numbers.  What Jeff and company really should be saying is "Here are the optimized tuning parameters for 12, 24, and 36-volt source battery operation."

"With the abilty to also use my battery swapper in this scenario and capture the radiant sikes into my cap pulser, I am able to run the machine self sustained."

As far as I am concerned, this is a statement being made by Jeff based on purely anecdotal evidence at this point and lots of hope.  Bringing it all back home, my suggestion is that before Jeff even goes there, he has to pass the "reality check" test and power a 100-watt incandescent light bulb 24 hours a day for 25 days to prove to himself and others that his setup is a free energy machine.

"Going forward, I am attempting to run this machine with no batts. Should I get this working (and I will) what will be the claim then??"

If this was true you would win the Nobel Prize for physics.  You think you can eventually run the 10-coiler off of two very large capacitor banks after you have tuned the motor so that everything is perfectly optimized.  That's a tall order and you will never be able to do this.  I won't be holding my breath waiting for the good news from you on this one.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-24, 21:01:22 by MileHigh »
   
Group: Guest
Ozy,

I am going to respond to the following comment by Redrichie:

Quote
Aussie, aussie, aussie...I think you must have A.D.D. something fierce. It is one thing for honest questioning, which only some of your questions seem that way. But seriously, asking the man who is a very well respected individual, and whom a lot of us look up to if he tested his device properly takes some real "huevos". Come on, my friend. REally? did he test properly? Nope Im sure he threw it together in a few days and said...YEP self runner. just for you guys. Go ahead and laugh at my waste of 10g's because I didnt test it properly before I showed it to The inventor!! LOL

Redrichie is just cowering to the implicit peer pressure on the Energetic Forum that says, "Don't ask any tough questions.  Just shut up and listen when a perceived authority figure that's connected with John Bedini says something."  Redrichie is dead wrong here and just becoming a member of the  Energetic Forum sheeple.

Look at the example of the dialog with John Bedini for the "Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor" on the Energetic Forum.  People ask John questions and agonize over his cryptic responses, and then they ask him more questions and then get more cryptic responses and agonize more and try to connect the dots themselves.  It's ridiculous and it's another example of the sheeple in action.  As was stated on another thread in this forum, the "Ferris Wheel" was shown at the conference, and nobody knows what it really does.  There are no specifications, no clear explanations of what it does, just the usual guessing game.  We guess that it drains one bank of batteries and charges another bank of batteries, that's all we know.  Chances are that's all we'll ever know.

Ozy, your questions are perfectly valid.

What you will also notice is that Jeff has never definitively stated that his setup can output power continuously over a very long period of time such that the total amount of energy drawn from the system is much larger than the total energy capacity of the batteries.  He has never said this and he has consistently avoided the question.  I can only guess that it's because he has never made that test and all of his statements relating to the power output from the device are made from anecdotal evidence only.

Jeff gave you a "pop quiz" test the other day that you couldn't answer.  He gave you all the data you needed.  SO WHAT???  You shouldn't have to answer his pop quiz to "get the rights" to ask perfectly reasonable and intelligent questions.  It's just ridiculous.

I will repeat myself.  If Jeff did the real "reality check" 25-day test, to his shock and dismay the battery banks would croak and the 100-watt light bulb would go out before one week passes assuming that he starts off with 20 mega-joules worth of battery energy.

Ozy, you might not believe me but trust me you are wise to hold off on spending any money on this system.  People are actively encouraging you to buy first and experiment for yourself later and if you don't get any free energy it might be your fault and tough luck for you.  That's simply ridiculous.

MileHigh
   
Group: Guest
Jeff:

I have an EE degree and worked as an EE 20 years ago in digital design.  I don't work as an EE any more.  I have thousands of hours of experience on the bench with a scope and a logic analyzer.  I have watched hundreds and hundreds of Bedini motor clips and read many Bedini threads, but I haven't built one.

I don't like to say that because if you say it it creates bad vibes and there is a culture of bashing education and EEs on the free energy forums.  So I prefer to not say it and just let my words speak for themselves.  This is the first time that I have ever posted it publicly, and I am only doing it because you asked me toMileHigh


@Milehigh, I just want to make sure with all of your ranting, this quote from you stays in the fore front. You have not built one, you have not practice EE for 20 years, except what you spew to all of your followers from the arm chair, you build nothing. I don't get it. You want everyone else to give you information so that you can Rant some more. You might be a little more respected if you would show what you can do, instead of preach to the world for what you cannot.


@All If your a current follower of Milehigh, you may want to think twice. I have no problems demonstrating my contributions!
"Just Tough talk" Your words!
Bit's
   
Group: Guest
Jeff:

You are trying to put forth the proposition that because I haven't built a Bedini motor that I am not qualified to comment.  It's a false proposition based on flawed logic.  If I built a Bedini motor I would learn nothing.  On top of that if I built one I could do a thorough analysis the likes of which you have never seen in your life.  Your logic is flawed because I can take my real-world bench experience and my educational background and apply that to getting up the learning curve and understanding how a Bedini motor works without having built one.  I did this three years ago.  This is fact.  I know more about how a Bedini motor works than Rick Friedrich does.  I have looked at Rick's clips and I am 100% certain that what I am saying is true.

The questions put out to you by Ozy and myself are still on the table waiting to be answered.

Quote
"Just Tough talk" Your words!

I responded to your tough talk and my words say a lot.  I hope that everyone following the 10-coiler thread on the Energetic Forum comes over here to get an alternative and more reaslistic viewpoint.  The ones that are really reading and understanding know what the real deal is.  They clearly understand now that your setup is not a free energy machine and they agree with me that you are just a good guy hedging your bets.  They know that the only way for you to prove that your 10-coiler and battery swapper setup is a free energy machine is to run the "reality check" test that was described in previous postings.

MileHigh
   
Group: Guest
Jeff:

You are trying to put forth the proposition that because I haven't built a Bedini motor that I am not qualified to comment.  

MileHigh

Not trying to IMPLY,but SAYING that you are. You are not qualified to make any assumption regarding my setup, because you have not properly tested, independently in your own "1000 of hours" of bench testing you say you have done. This is the first mistake of any  independent LAB. Think about it, if you went to a Doctor and he said you had a life threatening issue, would you not seek another totally independent source to substantiate or dispute his findings? Come on man, get out of your arm chair and go build the damn thing, and stop spewing garbage. If your respected in this trade, you'll do your own independent studies and post the results. Over 400 people seen my machine working, yet none has seen yours. How can you continue to display this ignorance. More over, how can people still believe in what you say? You show no results, but give great lip service!

Bit's
   
Group: Guest
Hello Bit's

I've been following this dialogue - very interesting.  Why not just do that test MH suggested?  It'll put paid to his objections.  And it's not complicated.  And I'm sure there's many of us would like to see the result.  If you could get it onto video it'd be even better.  There's no other way to put paid to MH's predictions if he's wrong.  And it would be a really cool way of showing those gains - if they're there. 
   
Group: Guest
Wow!

MileHigh, this is really for you.  I will be the first to say that I don't fully agree with certain things that you have said, although not in reference to this situation.  This whole thing, however, is just ridiculous.  Let's just call a spade a spade, shall we?  I understand.

I'll admit, first, that I have NOT been to the forum that your quotes are from.  To Many, this means I am biased.  So Be It.

Second, I am assuming that you have not mis-quoted the people that have thrown out this "Garbage" system.  If you have, then I am sure I will hear about it, but for now this seems a fairly high probability of truth.  (Nothing is 100% these days...)

IF there were ANY reality to their claims, then the concept of "Self-Running" is the FIRST thing to be tested.  I could give a DA** what it's output is, or what it might save in "Cost".  That data IS NOT Relevant to a "Self-Runner" nor, therefore, to this type of device.  The only relevant data would be, as you have actually stated, is can it output more than what it takes to run?  Simple, no MATH required, and no meters, checks or otherwise.  The specific inference is "Power BACK to the Grid", which is not the same as PF correction, etc.  I wonder what they were thinking???

If it has any use as claimed, again, by only what I have read here so my "assumptions" could be off, self-running is the "FIRST" and "ONLY" piece of data that needs to be proven.  All else is NOT needed as if the concept is provable, THEN we all can tune the things for ANY output we desire.  The ONLY reason for NOT doing a simple "Lightbulb" test would be the fact that it would fail.  Of all the obvious....   What could those people think, that we are ALL fools?  Could the general public be THAT gullible?

I am not one to normally "Rant" like this, but this is SO obvious that I felt "Someone" had to just come out and say it, as most here seem too gentlemanly to make such an observation.  I may even be "Censored" or "Banned" for saying this, but it is right there in front of all that have read this.  I felt it was worth the risk.

In case there is a question of qualifications, I'm still an EE (Well, maybe a bit more...), use my scope daily (Well, almost...), try to stay in field work as that's where the "Fun" is and I get to see more new concepts (I could NEVER handle a desk...), and HAVE built SEVERAL Bedini type devices.  (There ARE certain "Other" things going on there, but that is a different story...)  THIS device is supposed to output "Directly Useable Power back to the Grid".  That defines standard electricity to me and not "Radiant Energy" or anything unusual, so ALL descriptions of such are, again, not of any value to me.  Just more smoke, as it were.  This is direct standard electrical power, so no amount of words will make that requirement "Disappear".  

(Note to the "Opposition?":  Even if I wanted to technically go very deep into the misc conversions, etc., final output to input is ALL that needs viewing for a system.  I'll show where the energy comes from, easily, if you show me an OUT>IN and are willing to let me view the design.  Of course, if it's real, I might even have to make a couple measurements myself, to prove the theory.  Anyone up to that?  Any of those people that might be listening (OK, reading...), are you even willing to try?  I'd assume the silence will be deafening, though I'd love the work.  I Will include the exact specs of where the "Other" energy enters and HOW it was caused to enter, after you make the initial simple proof, using standard electron flow, as THIS device purports to.  [It can feed the grid, right?]  I'll be listening, on this very thread, on this forum.  The gauntlet is down and my sword is drawn.  Please don't bother with the "Intellectual Rights" argument.  I'll back you all the way and sign off on an NDA, if you prove a self runner.  It would not be the first time I have done that....)

SO, for me, MileHigh, it all comes down to your "Simple" and correct Test.  Take Whatever batteries you will use, and run any simple load.  Get a time, however approximate, and record that.  Use ANY method to determine the discharge state.  (I suggest small batteries, as that would take a shorter time, but that is completely up to the tester and really makes no difference, just takes longer......)   Now, setup the "System" and run the same load.  As long as the load is smaller than the max output of the device, it had better run forever or the thing is a obvious scam.  For that small load, there would be NO checks needed, as it either works or it doesn't.  Depending on how far over the max load you go would be the ONLY way the device should run down, and even then the runtime had better be longer than without the system.  If the designer isn't going to, or hasn't run this FIRST and basic test, then ANYTHING else stated has lost all creditability with me and becomes the old "Baffle them with BS" routine.  Enough Said.

OK, I'm done.  Milehigh, good shot with the hammer.  (Hit the nail on the head?)  I now must say "Sorry" to all that I have insulted with my crude remarks, with the exception to those that would put forth such a system without any proof or tests that had any value.  I certainly appreciate people that open my mind to weird possibilities, and respect them for that.  While there are those that "Worship" these certain people, I only value the truth and knowledge.  If this was what they truly believed, I could accept that, and define them that way in my own head, but anyone trying to cloud truth for the sake of monetary gain gets on my bad side.  That's obvious, in this case.  Sorry again for losing my temper.  
   
Group: Guest
Actually guys - here's the thing.  IF there's some sort of retail cost involved - then the performance actually NEEDS to be proved.  Loner's right.  Otherwise it stinks of 'scam'.
   
Group: Guest
Jeff:

This is posting #313 in this thread.  Probably about 120 or more of the postings in this thread are me giving a solid technical analysis of how the 10-coiler works and how a generic Bedini motor works and how to test it.  Then there is a thread that I wrote up for how to make measurements on a Bedini motor.  Yet you say that I'm "spewing garbage."

You have also revealed your ignorance about Bedini motors and inductors when you wrote up that business about subtracting 1000 volts from your battery voltage.  My suggestion to you is that you get some books and do some research online and then read this thread in its entirety from the beginning.  You are the microcontroller hardware and software guy, not the Bedini motor guy.  Doing the research and reading this thread and the Bedini measurement thread will get you up to speed.

For example, what's average power consumption from the source batteries and the average power output to the charging batteries for your setup?  I bet that you don't know the answer to that question, even though you have been working with the 10-coiler for months now.  The answers to how to make these measurements can be found in the threads around here.  Probably the best way to "tune" the motor would be to monitor the two power levels in real time and vary the base resistances.

I know what I am talking about and my words speak the truth.  You can't just say, "I have a free energy machine" without backing it up.  You have been avoiding this issue for months.  I suggested that you do a "reality check" test months ago.  So now here we are post-Renaissance workshop and people are flying high.  It's time to come back down to the ground.  Do the test, do it privately for yourself if you have to.

When the test fails I would love to be a fly on the wall when you have the conversation with Rick Friedrick and John Bedini about it.  You can always simply walk away from the whole thing if you want to.  I am telling you, seriously, the 100-watt light bulb test will prove to you that there is nothing going on.  You owe it to yourself to do the test.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-25, 05:17:06 by MileHigh »
   
Group: Guest
Bits, My apologies, both for not directly responding to you, and for my lack of knowledge on your posting on other forums/threads.

You state that over 400 people have seen your system in operation.  I assume you mean in "Self-running" mode?

That would be the only viable test worth anything, which is why I make that assumption.

(IF it cannot self-run, what are you talking about?  I.E.  No self-run, No free energy.  Simple fact...)

I await your informed response with eager anticipation.  (Ready to join in the "Fight", as it were.)
   
Group: Guest
and MH.  It's irritating - IN THE EXTREME - to see your endless predictions.  Why not just wait for the results before you declare it's outcome.  Your own bias is as unscientific as all those Bedini enthusiasts.  Neither do any of you any good at all.  

If you're going to 'crow' then do it AFTER the event.  Not before.  I think, by now, we all know where you come in on this.
   
Group: Guest
there once was a man of the night
whose interest was only in spite
he would damage the joy
in any new toy
by any means at all - even kicking it to death
using fair means or foul in that fight.
   
Group: Guest
Bits, My apologies, both for not directly responding to you, and for my lack of knowledge on your posting on other forums/threads.

You state that over 400 people have seen your system in operation.  I assume you mean in "Self-running" mode?

That would be the only viable test worth anything, which is why I make that assumption.

(IF it cannot self-run, what are you talking about?  I.E.  No self-run, No free energy.  Simple fact...)

I await your informed response with eager anticipation.  (Ready to join in the "Fight", as it were.)

Sterling has done a nice job in describing the
event;
http://pesn.com/2010/11/23/9501730_Bedini_Renaissance_Conference_a_turning_point/
All truth passes through three stages:
  
First, it is ridiculed;
   Second, it is violently opposed; and
   Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
 

Yes about 400 folks there and seen it with there own eyes. Not only the 10 coiler, but the lawn tractor, electric car and John's big wheel.
Bit's
   
Group: Guest
Bits - with respect.  I think what MH is calling for is the simple evidence of the system working over time.  I'm not sure that the conference extended a required 25 days or thereby. 

And in the absense of an extended test - what power analyses are available?  Are there any data dumps we could work with?  Something?  I'm asking because I really want to know.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
   
Group: Guest
Loner:

Thanks for your comments.  Part of my rationale for structuring the test with a 100-watt light bulb and using Jeff's standard setup is because in the culture of "free energy" any possible deviation from the "standard setup" is considered a possible reason for the test failing.  So to accommodate the "requirements" of the pro free energy enthusiasts you have to try at all costs to not change things.

With respect to the amount of continuous power you can allegedly get from the setup, there is a rationale for it being finite.  For a given charging session, the source battery energy first passes through the Bedini motor.  About 70% of that energy is lost as heat.  Then the theory is that the remaining 30% of the energy that goes into the charging battery is somehow magically increased in magnitude.  So just to end up with a 20% surplus of energy, the energy that goes into the charging battery has to somehow quadruple.

Anyway, thanks again for your comments!

Rosemary:

Sorry to irritate you but I have already stated my conclusion about a possible test several times in this thread.  If I am wrong I will admit it after the fact.  Plus I had some things said about me that led me to taking the direct approach.  I would be more than happy to wait for the outcome if the test is ever actually done.

To back up my comments, I have read many postings in various Bedini threads over the years where people have followed a disciplined regimen of testing and have concluded that the Bedini motor did not somehow make the energy in the charging battery increase after a charging session.  I'm sorry I can't give you any links.  The YouTube user Preston Stroud has a setup that is similar to the 10-coiler and he is not a happy camper at all and feels that he was sold a false bill of goods.  There are many people over the years that have reported that a Bedini motor does nothing.  Then there is the common sense argument that there is nothing special about pulsing current into a battery from a discharging inductor.  There is no rational reason to expect that the charging battery will magically show an increase in energy, none!  The term "radiant energy" used by Bedini in the context of a discharging inductor that's part of a Bedini motor is nonsense.  Any first-year physics or engineering student would tell you that.

MileHigh
   
Group: Guest
Hehe, may I recommend Bits, that if you are not prepared to do a proper test of your machine - maybe posting here is a waste of your time?
It is very clear that MileHigh requires proper proof not just claims of self running.

If your machine runs as you say Bits, then it wont be long before more people replicate, and one of these people will take the time to do a proper test and make MileHigh happy.
I guess we all thought you would be the one to show us this proper test, but if we have to wait for someone else, so be it.
I will happily give them the credit for the first replication of a self running ten coiler - sorry bits, no proof, no credit.
Science is great! The first person or the one with all the accolades is always the one that PROVES there system first.
Nothing is True until proven so!

And just to show that I am equal and unbiased - MileHigh - you should really build a bedini machine. If you post all the time to a thread debunking the bedini systems, then common sense would dictate you would of at least build an SSG or Fan Kit. Would bring you a lot more credibility!

Also, Bits, Sterlings article clearly uses quantifiers when he discusses the machines present. Been a good journalist he has used words like apparently convincing and supposedly could run continuously to state clearly that no evidence was given and these claims should be taken with the same amount of salt given to all his articles say AVIG and TWM for example? Its a nice article, but you get the feeling he isn't 100% convinced  of the claims been made. Seems sterling has tried to get definitive answers before, with no success ;D

Thanks,

Ozy

 

   
Group: Guest
Bits - with respect.  I think what MH is calling for is the simple evidence of the system working over time.  I'm not sure that the conference extended a required 25 days or thereby. 

And in the absense of an extended test - what power analyses are available?  Are there any data dumps we could work with?  Something?  I'm asking because I really want to know.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

As Milehigh as so eloquently posted my results as stated to Ozy in the other forum, then decided to pick apart the results and provide a complete (actually incomplete in my book) analysis without even getting out of the arm chair. How can anyone even begin to seek the truth? I ran for 2 days straight and could of run longer. You want 25 days from me, but from Milehigh you accept total analysis withing 20 seconds after he posts, from a guy who has not practice EE in 20 years, admits he never built one and has only watch the videos. Are you Guys, Gals really serious? Don't accept my results, build it, replicated my setup, you'll see.

Bit's
   
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