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Author Topic: The Engine,and then the gas  (Read 22091 times)
Group: Professor
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No sound on my PC (it is old) so I don't watch many videos here.  Your method of obtaining watt hours against quantity of gasoline used is exactly what is needed.  Looking forward to seeing your engine modifications and the results.

Smudge
   

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Ok,on we go.

For the next step,i welded up a patch on the outside of the head,so as i could drill and tap it to insert a hot bolt.

The video explains what the hot bolt is.
Upon pulling the head off,i found the piston to be very clean.
So i would say this engine has done very little work  O0

Anyway,another small gain made--our graph is getting better all the time  O0
She's a long video,so grab your popcorn and coke.
If you wish to know all i am doing along the way,with good explanations,then some lone video's are to be expected and needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fChJndmoNNM

So now the motor is running at optimum,it's time to get some definitive answers on claims made.
First we are going to answer the fuel vapour question-->is there a gain using fuel vapour?
Well,we should know in a couple of days,as it will take me a couple of nights to make a good fuel vapour system.

Brad


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Group: Professor
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I have just looked up the energy content (calorific value) of gasoline as 33.7 MJ per litre.  Using that figure and reading your latest result as 95 watt-hours for 100 milli-litres I calculate the efficiency to be 101.48%. :D
Smudge
   
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My calculation gives an efficiency of one tenth:
95 Wh = 342 KJ = 0.342 MJ  =>  3.42 MJ/l  => efficiency: 10.148%



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Guys

You are looking at it all wrong.
We are not doing this to calculate overall efficiency of the system,but only efficiency increases of the engine.

The generator is a motor,and in no way an efficient generator.
In fact,ATM it is an extremely poor generator.
But what it is is a constant fixed load on the motor,and gives us a good base load to work with. This is a good way to show increases of motor efficiency with every mod we make.

So ,were not looking at generator efficiency,were looking at increases in motor efficiency.

As the load has remained a constant--the generators efficiency has remained a constant,then it can only be motor efficiency that has risen.

So ATM we have increased motor efficiency by just over 75%.


Brad


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Guys

You are looking at it all wrong.
We are not doing this to calculate overall efficiency of the system,but only efficiency increases of the engine.
...

Hi Brad,

We are certainly not wrong. It's just that you didn't see why the calculation was done.
If the overall efficiency of the system had been more than 100%, as the first calculation showed, then the rest is secondary. This information would be of primary importance.
But I think there is a decimal error, which is why I provided my calculation, not to evaluate your system.

Then the improvement in performance is to be measured and only you can do it. You announce 75%, it's much more than what's commonly reported, so it would be nice if you could provide the synoptic diagram, the measurement protocol and the data tables in a more formalized way, a youtube video being not enough for me (in addition this effort of clarity often allows to see the possible errors).


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Hi Brad,

We are certainly not wrong. It's just that you didn't see why the calculation was done.
If the overall efficiency of the system had been more than 100%, as the first calculation showed, then the rest is secondary. This information would be of primary importance.
But I think there is a decimal error, which is why I provided my calculation, not to evaluate your system.

Then the improvement in performance is to be measured and only you can do it. You announce 75%, it's much more than what's commonly reported, so it would be nice if you could provide the synoptic diagram, the measurement protocol and the data tables in a more formalized way, a youtube video being not enough for me (in addition this effort of clarity often allows to see the possible errors).

Yes well of course the system as a whole is not over 100% efficient--never will be.

Also,i do not see any need for any other information other than that supplied in the video's,and the graphs i have posted--it cant get any clearer than that.

The RPM remains a constant,+/- 5% for each test.
The generators efficiency remains a constant for each test.
The amount of fuel remains a constant for each test.
The load remains a constant for each test.

So,if the watt hours and run time increase each time we run the test after each modification,then that is a very clear indication that the thermal efficiency of the engine is increasing.

The first run with the motor in standard factory trim produced 54.7 watt hours for that 100ml volume of fuel,and ran for 8:47.
The third run produced 94.4 watt hours,and ran for 14:46.
Each test consumed 100ml of fuel.

So 94.4/54.7x100=172.5.
So a 72.5% increase in efficiency.

I dont know what more could be needed ?.


Brad


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Yes well of course the system as a whole is not over 100% efficient--never will be.

Also,i do not see any need for any other information other than that supplied in the video's,and the graphs i have posted--it cant get any clearer than that.
...

Others see this need. As you made a video for others, not for yourself I guess, it's their opinion that counts.
I don't consider a video as a report or technical analysis, but as an illustration, so the only subject matter I can answer is what is written here.
Imho if you want relevant technical advice, and not just remarks like "nice work", "impressive" and so on, which does not bring anything on the substance, you have to synthesize it in the right forms.

Quote

The RPM remains a constant,+/- 5% for each test.
The generators efficiency remains a constant for each test.
The amount of fuel remains a constant for each test.
The load remains a constant for each test.

So,if the watt hours and run time increase each time we run the test after each modification,then that is a very clear indication that the thermal efficiency of the engine is increasing.

The first run with the motor in standard factory trim produced 54.7 watt hours for that 100ml volume of fuel,and ran for 8:47.
The third run produced 94.4 watt hours,and ran for 14:46.
Each test consumed 100ml of fuel.

So 94.4/54.7x100=172.5.
So a 72.5% increase in efficiency.

I dont know what more could be needed ?

This partial synthesis is a first step. For example I don't know which is the RPM. The improvement could occur at a particularly unfavourable rotation regime that is not the cruise regime, which would explain the deviation from what is usually reported. I don't know if the energy to produce HHO is well counted for the efficiency calculation....  Maybe all this is said in the video, but what a waste of time when at a glance you could see it on a diagram. Being forced to go back to the video for every question you ask yourself, to look for the answer wherever, is beyond my strength. You have your experiment in mind but others don't.




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Great test work as usual Brad O0

Now that you have the engine carburetor ideally tuned it would be nice to compared a liquid gas vs vapor gas test.
I've done it in the past but never could prove a gain in efficiency since (in the long run) I would always end up with a portion of the liquid gas that would no longer make vapors.
Don't know if you ever had that issue?

Anyways, great work and thanks for taking the time to share your results and looking forward to the HHO test results.

Cheers
Luc
   

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Hi Guys.

I'm sure I read about an additive to Petrol/Gasoline to reduce vapourisation that's become effective.

This might hamper your tests. With most vehicles, cars and motorcycles fuel injection is now King. The humble carburettor cast aside in its favour. This device was capable of atomising the fuel in the same way as an injector albeit further away from the cylinder intake port. As Brad has found we can adjust the carburettor for maximum efficiency for a fixed load.

Brad, are you going to try using some of the exhaust gases to " preheat " the vapouriser?

Cheers Graham.



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Group: Room3327 Private Group
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Hi Brad,

Another great job as usual.  I am curious where you got the idea for the hot bolt.  I have not seen that before.  It is clear that it made a measurable difference. 

I would not pay too much attention to those that are too lazy to watch the video.  Your explanations are clear.  I understand why you made such a long video.  If you had started and stopped the video to make it shorter I am sure some would have said you cheated some way.  Showing the engine running from start to finish makes it clear the results are real.

Thanks again,
Carroll


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Hi Guys.

I'm sure I read about an additive to Petrol/Gasoline to reduce vapourisation that's become effective.

This might hamper your tests. With most vehicles, cars and motorcycles fuel injection is now King. The humble carburettor cast aside in its favour. This device was capable of atomising the fuel in the same way as an injector albeit further away from the cylinder intake port. As Brad has found we can adjust the carburettor for maximum efficiency for a fixed load.

Brad, are you going to try using some of the exhaust gases to " preheat " the vapouriser?

Cheers Graham.

Yes Graham, that could be what was going on in my gas vapor tests.
I heard white gas (camping stove fuel) aka naphtha is clean of additives but quite costly @ $13. gal. in US
It may be the only thing that is clean enough to truly show if there's a difference between liquid vs vapors.
Also, heating the white gas vapor (with exhaust) may also provide an efficiency boost. That's how camping stoves work, they have part of the metal gas line tube go though the burner flame.

Cheers
Luc
   

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Brings back some memories from the long ago past
when gasoline engines for washing machines were
readily available.

Their carburetors were incredibly simple with just
a needle valve to control fuel intake into the Input
Port of the motors.  It was very easy to run the
motors on Kerosene or Paint Thinner.  We had to
squirt either Alcohol or Gasoline into the input for
startup but once running were able to adjust the
needle valve for best operation.

Love your work TinMan.  You keep it simple and
uncomplicated.  Straight to the point.


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Great test work as usual Brad O0

Now that you have the engine carburetor ideally tuned it would be nice to compared a liquid gas vs vapor gas test.
I've done it in the past but never could prove a gain in efficiency since (in the long run) I would always end up with a portion of the liquid gas that would no longer make vapors.
Don't know if you ever had that issue?

Anyways, great work and thanks for taking the time to share your results and looking forward to the HHO test results.

Cheers
Luc

Hi Luc

Yes,as stated in my last video,and a few posts back,the next test will be using a vapour system.

I am half way through building the vapour system now.
Unlike most you see,mine will be able to be finely adjusted for optimum fuel/air mix--just like the variable main jet.
To many use ball valves in there systems,and you just cant get fine adjustments will ball valves. Mine has gate valves,so very fine adjustments can be made.


Brad


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Brad, are you going to try using some of the exhaust gases to " preheat " the vapouriser?

Cheers Graham.

First i will just do a cold vapour system,as the colder the gasses entering the motor the better. This way we get a larger volume expansion in the expansion chamber,hence why intercoolers increase power. The hot bolt should vapourise any droplets that make it through. But i think my vapour system will deliver pure gas only.

Brad


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I have completed the vapour system.

Tomorrow we find out if the !claim! is true-->will fuel vapour turn out to be more efficient than standard fuel systems?.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbJVmkbguAI


Brad


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Amazing amount of work on that mate O0

I was wondering how you were going to solve the 100ml liquid fuel measurement.
I hope it'll work as you say, because I'm having a hard time visualizing a float valve in such a large tank give a linear reading on such a small fuel measurement (100ml)

Thanks for sharing

Cheers
Luc
   

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Just so as you all know,i run each test 3 time's,and video the last run.
This is so as i know we can get consistent results.

Now the fuel vapour run and result's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIn6Od327m0

It seems that using fuel vapour is no more efficient than a well tuned carby  :(
I was hoping for better result's,but !my! system did not show any.
Also tried heating the vapour tank in one run,and it was quite warm--but no increase in fuel efficiency showed up.
The slight gain seen i would say is due to a leaner mix going into the engine,which shows on the spark plug coloring.


So fuel vapour system is a no gain system--well in my case anyway.

But all is not lost.
Please see next video  O0 O0 O0


Brad


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Hi Brad.

Loved the setup, but not the noise!   :)

Out of interest are you checking your Barometric pressure for these tests? I remember one of my vintage hit and miss engines changing drastically as a thunderstorm approached at a rally, many years ago.

So....

What's to come? Micro fogged water with the air, foggy day!!   ;)

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Brad.

Loved the setup, but not the noise!   :)

Out of interest are you checking your Barometric pressure for these tests? I remember one of my vintage hit and miss engines changing drastically as a thunderstorm approached at a rally, many years ago.

So....

What's to come? Micro fogged water with the air, foggy day!!   ;)

Cheers Graham.

Yep
Its uploading now.

Clear dry days here ATM Graham  O0


Brad


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Water mist injection-->a clear winner  O0 O0 O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQTzEKHMjj4

Brad


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Thanks for the test results Brad

It would be interesting to see if there's any difference between cold vs hot water vapor.
Which ever is the winner it would be interesting to then test it with a timing retard to bring it closer to TDC to see if the water fog or vapor is acting as a ignition retardant or adding to the power stroke as a steam engine.

Great to have someone as qualified as you correctly do these tests.

Cheers
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Excellent, just what was expected.  O0

However I'm still wondering about Barometric pressure as we know that on rainy, damp and foggy days it's a result of low pressure and would allow a little more air into the combustion chamber.

Out of interest Brad, did you mention what the " fogger " was using, energy wise? My apologies if I missed it.

Are you going to try steam? I also noticed the reduction in both exhaust and block temperature thanks to the water droplets.

If not steam I presume your next video will show the results of HHO injection?

Like Luc, I would like to thank you for doing these tests.  O0

Cheers Graham.


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Excellent, just what was expected.  O0

However I'm still wondering about Barometric pressure as we know that on rainy, damp and foggy days it's a result of low pressure and would allow a little more air into the combustion chamber.

Out of interest Brad, did you mention what the " fogger " was using, energy wise? My apologies if I missed it.

Are you going to try steam? I also noticed the reduction in both exhaust and block temperature thanks to the water droplets.

If not steam I presume your next video will show the results of HHO injection?

Like Luc, I would like to thank you for doing these tests.  O0

Cheers Graham.

I would think there is two effects--
1-on a cold dry morning,the air is more dense,and thus a larger volume enters the cylinder.
2-On a damp foggy morning it would be much like the mist injection,where i believe that the water mist is turning to steam,and causing a larger expansion in the chamber.

That fogger unit  uses 24 watts.

I believe that we have taken the side valve motor as far as we can,and so i have found a couple of OHV engines to convert. I am switching engines because the OHV engine allows for far better performance,and i can change the ignition system on the OHV engine,so as to remove the waste spark--which we do not want with HHO when retarding the timing to TDC. I can also raise the compression ratio up to around 20-22:1

I dont plan to just show that HHO can improve fuel efficiency,i plan to run the engine solly on HHO  O0


Brad


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Group: Room3327 Private Group
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Thanks Brad for all you have done with this series of tests.  They have been very interesting.  You didn't answer my question about where you got the idea for the hot bolt.  I have not seen that before and the results were impressive.

Definitely looking forward to your next tests with the OHV engine.

Take care,
Carroll


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