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Author Topic: The Engine,and then the gas  (Read 30356 times)

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Why all that may be true when using just HHO as a fuel,it is not the case when using HHO with the existing gasoline/air mix.

The ratio of HHO to gasoline/air mix being injected into the engine is very small,and so there will be no implosions as there would be with pure HHO as the fuel.

To work the ratio out,we do some simple math.
The engine is 160cc,and so draws in 160cc of air/gasoline mix every 2nd revolution.
At 3000rpm that would mean an intake of air/gasoline mix of 240 liters a minute.
I am adding about 2 liters a minute of HHO,and so the ratio is 120:1

So as you can see,there is no way in hell there is going to be any sort of implosion event taking place here.

It is all well and good to talk about how Stan Myers WFC worked,but as it is apparent,not one single person has been able to replicate Stan's WFC.

This thread is dedicated to actual recorded events and effect's,and dose not include that of un-unreplicable !claimed! events of the past as being reality. If anyone  !!anyone!! can reproduce SM's water powered engine,and present it here,then i will be more than happy to take the time-and spend the cash reproducing it. Until such time,any claimed effects SM used are just here say.

A video coming up soon.
One Graham might like  O0
We now have a small diesel engine to experiment with as well.


Brad


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What is it Graham ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEfp0iROS64


Brad

Hi Brad.

You do know that's a little younger than my area of interest?

However, I think it's a Petter AA1 or an AB1 Diesel engine and yes they were definitely a well made motor!

http://www.ijdonline.co.uk/main/engines/petter_ab1/petter_ab1.asp

Cheers Graham.

PS. This suggestion or an answer thereto, might be better coming from ION but whilst the engine is in bits how difficult would it be to fit a Thermocouple into the combustion chamber?


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Hi Brad.

You do know that's a little younger than my area of interest?

However, I think it's a Petter AA1 or an AB1 Diesel engine and yes they were definitely a well made motor!

http://www.ijdonline.co.uk/main/engines/petter_ab1/petter_ab1.asp

Cheers Graham.

PS. This suggestion or an answer thereto, might be better coming from ION but whilst the engine is in bits how difficult would it be to fit a Thermocouple into the combustion chamber?

It could be done,but it would have to be one good thermocouple to take that sort of heat and pressure.

Anyway,i spent another day on sunday working/tuning the HHO system,but to no avail.
There is simply nothing for the HHO to improve on,in that the engine is already burning the fuel very efficiently,and so the HHO has no effect of increasing what is already at a maximum value.
I tried .5LPM,1LPM,2LPM,and 3LPM,along with various ratio's of electrolyte.
I still could not match the efficiency that the engine is already at.

So then i decided to push this little engine harder,and shaved another mm of the head.
The compression ratio is now 15.6:1  ;D
I know it will not last,but i have many of them now.
Now,here is the good news. The engine is now running on a fuel mix of--30% gasoline--40% diesel--20% water--and 10% emulsion fluid.

The efficiency has now risen another 23.4% for the 100ml of fuel mix(that includes the 20ml of water),and the engine runs extremely clean and crisp. It is now very responsive in regards to acceleration--no smoke,and sounds strong. No knocks or bangs yet,but at this high compression ratio i have no doubt that there coming lol.

I have two more later model diesel engines coming this week,and i think they would be more suited to the water mist to steam experiments  O0


Brad


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That's an interesting fuel combo Brad!!

Pressure fed bearings would be first on my list!!  ;)


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You're on an interesting path Brad O0

Thanks for sharing
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It maybe worth dissolving 0.5gramm of boric acid to your water just to add some nuclear fusion heat to the expansion cycle, not too much though as its a flame retardant, if you don't want to ruin your water you could brush your spark plug outer electrode with a saturated solution of boric acid ;)

If it were to work the head might blow off and also for it to work you need a hot engine.
   

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It maybe worth dissolving 0.5gramm of boric acid to your water just to add some nuclear fusion heat to the expansion cycle, not too much though as its a flame retardant, if you don't want to ruin your water you could brush your spark plug outer electrode with a saturated solution of boric acid ;)

If it were to work the head might blow off and also for it to work you need a hot engine.

Nuclear fusion :o
Is this safe?

Brad


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TinMan, you're able to accomplish easily what many
of us Dream about!

If I were a younger specimen I'd be very much tempted
to visit Oz and the TinMan just to observe how you do
all that you do!

You're definitely taking this line of research into new
and higher levels of observation.  Amazing Stuff!

Could your work be an historical first?

Rudolph Gunnerman has done a lot of work developing
fuel/water mixtures for gasoline and diesel engines.


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TinMan, you're able to accomplish easily what many
of us Dream about!

If I were a younger specimen I'd be very much tempted
to visit Oz and the TinMan just to observe how you do
all that you do!

You're definitely taking this line of research into new
and higher levels of observation.  Amazing Stuff!

Could your work be an historical first?

Rudolph Gunnerman has done a lot of work developing
fuel/water mixtures for gasoline and diesel engines.


First i must correct a mistake i have made throughout the thread and video's.
I stated i was using 95 fuel,when in fact i have been using 91.
I got this mixed up as i run 95 in my vehicle,not 91.
So all this testing so far has been with 91 octane fuel--not 95 as stated.

muDped
If only i had started this journey on a serious note 10 years ago,i think things would have progressed far beyond what we have now.

I am starting to get a very good understanding of what is and is not possible.
But conflict comes with that along the way,and what i was taught all those years ago dose not seem to be the entire truth.

It was stated by my lecturers back in my training days that water was not a fuel,and no power/energy could be gained by adding water in any way shape or form.It is stated so often here by some that water is not a fuel.

I also see,reading that article you posted the link to above,that even the high end guru's say the same thing

Quote:David Kittelson, University of Minnesota director of the Center for Diesel Research sighs mightily when called. Kittelson, a professor of mechanical engineering, calls Gunnerman's claims "absolute nonsense. They're violating the second law of thermodynamics."

"It sort of opens up a Pandora's box - that's why I sighed when we first started talking," Kittelson added. "People in universities have an awful lot to do. We're going through periods where we're having dramatic changes in funding structures . . . because of that it's very difficult to do what we're supposed to do and that is sort of seek out the truth. Getting into this water-fuel issue involves a lot of time . . . a lot of time . . . and not much payback."

Michael Seal, director of the Vehicle Research Institute at Bellingham's Western Washington University, agrees. Seal conducts engine research and built an award-winning hybrid vehicle that runs electrically and on natural gas.

Adding 10 gallons of water to 10 gallons of fuel might give only nine gallons of power, Seal said. "I could be wrong - but I'd like to know how I'm wrong. It's pretty well-known that water doesn't burn and there's no way of getting energy from it," Seal said. "Basically, you lose in some way. The best you could hope to do is break even."


As you have seen,even with a highly modified-fuel efficient engine,i show a very clear gain by adding water in form of a vapour. And we are not talking small gains here,we are talking in excess of 18% with the simplest of setups that anyone can try.

In order to make any claims,we have to provide a sound explanation of the mechanisms at work.

I then decided to research what constitutes a fuel-->what is a fuel?.
Here is what i found to be a general answer.
Quote:A fuel is any material that can be made to react with other substances so that it releases energy ,so as it can do useful work.

This being the case,then water by definition is a fuel when you look at the events taking place within the cylinder of an ICE during both compression and power strokes.

As already stated by Graham and myself--
1-On the intake stroke,the water mist cools the air. This makes the air more dense,and so a larger volume of mixed gasses enter the cylinder. This results in a much larger explosive force during the power stroke.
2-During the power stroke,the water droplets are super heated,and this results in flash steaming,which also increases both the volume in the cylinder,and the pressure pushing down on the piston.

But as i take a closer look,there is more than this going on.
Im sure you have all heard of pumping losses within the ICE.
As it stands,the gasoline engine has higher pumping losses than that of the diesel engine.
This is due to how the gasoline engine closes of air flow volume to the engine to govern it's speed,where as the diesel engines speed is governed by how much fuel is delivered to it.
So when air flow is restricted on the inlet side of the gasoline engine,a vacuum is formed within the inlet manifold and cylinder. This is one pumping loss that the diesel dose not have.
The second pumping loss is during the compression stroke,where compressing the gasses is another pumping loss.

3-By adding water in form of a mist,the gasses within the cylinder are colder,and so the pumping losses associated with the compression stroke are reduced.

A fuel is any material that can be made to react with other substances so that it releases energy ,so as it can do useful work

So, by the very definition of a fuel,when water is added to an internal combustion engine,and reacts with the other substances within that combustion chamber,it is then a fuel.
It go's through a phase change,it expands and performs useful work,and it gets hot.
If it was not acting like a fuel,then it would cause the opposite effect,and reduce the efficiency or amount of work a given volume of gasoline could deliver.
Adding the water mist did not decrease the amount of work our given volume of gasoline could perform--we did not break even-->we increase the amount of work being done for that given volume of gasoline.

I believe this can be taken even further.
By increasing the compression ratio even further,we can add even more water(in the form of mist) into the engine,and get even more work out of it.
The larger volume of water mist will allow our 91 octane fuel to be used in an engine with a compression ratio of greater than 16:1. This will also lead to higher combustion temperature's--which lead to a higher expansion ratio of our water flashing over to steam.

In saying that,i think i have already exceeded the limits of my cheap chinese engine.
I am already pushing the friendship with a compression ratio of 15.6:1.
This means that the compression pressure has already exceeded 230psi--and who knows what the ignition pressure is at ATM. But,we are also not pushing the engine to hard as far as load go's. With the HHO cell running as well as the load,we have a 1.12kW load on the engine,and even more if we take into account the generators inefficiencies. Lets say a 1.4kW load.

But me being me,another 500 microns comes off the head tomorrow night  O0
This will take us to a compression ratio of 16.2:1.
Along with that will come the larger misting unit,which i bought all the parts for today.
This should be enough to keep detonation(knocking) away from our engine.
From then on in,we will be switching to the stronger diesel engine,but where we will be running it on a gasoline and water mist system.


Brad


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Hi Brad.

Philosophically speaking, water has provided mankind with the " fuel " of industry since the dawn of civilisation. It's only in the last century and a half or so that Oil took its place.

Going back to the early 20th century many agricultural engines that used a much cheaper lower octane fuel, Paraffin/Kerosene were fitted with a water injection system to allow a greater degree of ignition advance. The water stopped them " pinking " or " knocking " whilst under load.

I'm curious to know what method you're using to determine the compression ratio? Physically, by measuring the volume of a liquid in the combustion space against the cylinder volume? Or mathematically?

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Brad.

Philosophically speaking, water has provided mankind with the " fuel " of industry since the dawn of civilisation. It's only in the last century and a half or so that Oil took its place.

Going back to the early 20th century many agricultural engines that used a much cheaper lower octane fuel, Paraffin/Kerosene were fitted with a water injection system to allow a greater degree of ignition advance. The water stopped them " pinking " or " knocking " whilst under load.

I'm curious to know what method you're using to determine the compression ratio? Physically, by measuring the volume of a liquid in the combustion space against the cylinder volume? Or mathematically?

Cheers Graham.

I am calculating the effective compression ratio,not the static(mechanical) compression ratio.
The effective compression ratio takes into account valve timing and blowby,where static compression ratio dose not.

Effective compression ratio is calculated using a compression testing gauge.
The peak pressure in psig reached during the spinning of the motor at cranking speed is then divided by 14.7-close enough. So, as i now get 230psi on the compression gauge at cranking speed,the effective compression ratio is calculated as 230/14.7=15.64:1

Yes,the water stop's knocking by cooling the gas in the cylinder. This means the temperatures reached during compression are lower,and thus the compression pressure is lower. this allows a higher compression ratio to be used when water injection is done correctly.


Brad


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Bump....

Going back a page I posted this.  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3460.msg74575#msg74575

I've been trawling eBay for fogger's, mist makers etc.

Sadly for most listings there's no data on the " actual " delivery of fog. The article stated an output of 250mL per hour for the 200 CC engine.

I found one unit, a 10 head version that could easily provide the volume but at £90.00 it can stay with the vendor!!

Perhaps a few more " heads " could research this subject to see if any vendors are providing water consumption data around the world?

Using a converted Diesel engine for this experiment with its higher compression ratio and therefore much higher internal cylinder temperature we might see something interesting?

Cheers Graham.


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Bump....

Going back a page I posted this.  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3460.msg74575#msg74575

I've been trawling eBay for fogger's, mist makers etc.

Sadly for most listings there's no data on the " actual " delivery of fog. The article stated an output of 250mL per hour for the 200 CC engine.

I found one unit, a 10 head version that could easily provide the volume but at £90.00 it can stay with the vendor!!

Perhaps a few more " heads " could research this subject to see if any vendors are providing water consumption data around the world?

Using a converted Diesel engine for this experiment with its higher compression ratio and therefore much higher internal cylinder temperature we might see something interesting?

Cheers Graham.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/400W-500W-RGB-LED-Wireless-Remote-Control-Fog-Smoke-Machine-Disco-Party-Effect/183192825369?var=&hash=item2aa724ae19&enc=AQADAAADAFjVrDbVsZ8oH%2F8PNHtt9VX4%2Fw7FZcmMuqsX8uaFEduVvjxkgS%2FaSxE3rfbZdU5UnTK2QQJmUrDuguBrlokXXKh3ozKZ5IM0kkzrNokS75teBSGHXbjKg2C1Q75%2FiJSpgg1Pmc%2FHUEkNTajkR3Ahf9570o4kPWDOuYDAO1DRatRCIbafkqguI5OL1CUYa6cRXyJ1t4xfl4VKRINKoXwqWGCLozR9LSKpZuo4f4r59w4SSOMT6z5w8UDMcUXNCy1pWGscUoUIZZh3doZ9d4zqVIaHYFIVrPB6YmKuMDSNZk77p0PZIs4HPyqVgN%2BOnzFO3hb8t8sZ6DxHCqWnIyICf%2BOQ%2FKCk7Istqgradatx9eI8wV02fFJVXqJSnhivYhqVefcqbHumPHCeyXXSwa3RqHZCpSt7OTfWy8wDZ9pIy%2F%2BaD1BaYe%2BxcKSDq3C5J54e7fmQmewHaRcx8jxNpCw4RrFQJPm5zx9HvzVfQuTboeo0Y%2Fhfh0Kr6Y%2FomfNr225nXhQX4tXfBrWLAacBFkLajXr%2Bef%2F%2BHTJpo9Vd4SRkAjAQEGnoRjuts8Oj2hRjDt7a45HuGqqfphuzOxIJqzsw9C0ssjqjv9h0K8%2BLJH0NHHDIH%2BOOm0CqA7h8u0BHmpHG9hktH%2Br94%2FqMSbJIKr6VUI%2BsR3bdJE%2FyyE33Ys0JqDpCXp%2FIZ3vsXRS3ZdKzS%2BODz2pWZULZ%2B0nWl3vfQnNo3PIGFmQ4KkbclvR0Rn5XW8itqz%2BrVvXgNvmsOwz6NsHlMXrf2KwwAw6m7pJBVKUAOQ%2FwTNDeVJp2SCjcQzirC8ig5Pu0sHcotrUhaWOD1OvD50A0qfE%2B9iUQYqRbTKWSCscWSY%2FYtj5Uci5SMRTOL4L6b4V3kBkxbd6yFcopG6GEIDtixmcc4iDABdOdWR9U2y9z9DJjbXuzJk2be5QljQ6GvHia39NNjZ%2FolceTr0R5wXddlxQ2qH3jji75VYV6xTWVL8XC6G2hteZ%2Fh2xC3N5Zfavy%2FcFKE5BbfOb7qZ0ZCw%3D%3D&checksum=1831928253698b222e8370014104964c8df1a39d94e7


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Hi Brad.

Can you try Tiny URL please ?

My iPad nearly exploded!!  :D


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Hi Brad.

Can you try Tiny URL please ?

My iPad nearly exploded!!  :D

https://tinyurl.com/y3gwtfgq


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https://tinyurl.com/y3gwtfgq

Thanks Brad, could you delete your previous post please? I still need my telescope to read the page!

The photo shows only half of your link, LOL.

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Brad.

Ok, that's not what we need. It uses a special liquid, I don't think it's water.

I'll jump onto my PC, more to come.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Head-Fogger-Humidifier-Ultrasonic-Mist-Maker-Transformer-Fog-Making-Machine/362514693623?epid=19023958601&hash=item54678f3df7:g:NEwAAOSwMflcHLVv


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Hi Brad.

Ok, that's not what we need. It uses a special liquid, I don't think it's water.

I'll jump onto my PC, more to come.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Head-Fogger-Humidifier-Ultrasonic-Mist-Maker-Transformer-Fog-Making-Machine/362514693623?epid=19023958601&hash=item54678f3df7:g:NEwAAOSwMflcHLVv

Hi Graham

While the fogger system works,it is limited in how much volume of water it can mist.
Yesterday i went to the hardware shop,and bought some outdoor misting nozzles.
We have had these on our outdoor patio area for years,and it only just occurred to me that they put out a very fine mist ,using mains water pressure (40-48 psi).Not as fine as a fog,but very close to,and would result in the same outcome once in the combustion chamber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv8NGPtOsYo


Brad


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Hi Brad.

Yes, that might be a workable alternative. The link I gave was for at least 3 litres per hour, that PDF suggested 0.25 Litres per hour for a 200 CC engine.

Whilst speaking to Chet a few days we wondered whether a nozzle from Oil fired boilers might also work to provide a fine mist.

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Brad.

Yes, that might be a workable alternative. The link I gave was for at least 3 litres per hour, that PDF suggested 0.25 Litres per hour for a 200 CC engine.

Whilst speaking to Chet a few days we wondered whether a nozzle from Oil fired boilers might also work to provide a fine mist.

Cheers Graham.

What about a diesel injector it self?
Perhaps the injector pump would also be ok for small periods of time to send water through.
You would of course have to change the injector timing,so as the water would be sprayed through the injector at the bottom of the compression stroke,and not the top as they are.


Brad


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The more I think about water mist induction into a high compression engine I feel there might be some promise.

At normal atmospheric pressure with a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius water expands to roughly 1700 times its volume! Obviously we have some " differentials " because we are heating the water under pressure, damn where's Rob when you need him?

Brad. Do you have a Water fogger to hand? You've already done a compression test to determine your compression ratio, could you retest with added moisture? The results will determine whether the project is viable, IMO.

Cheers Graham.


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The more I think about water mist induction into a high compression engine I feel there might be some promise.

At normal atmospheric pressure with a temperature of 100 degrees Celsius water expands to roughly 1700 times its volume! Obviously we have some " differentials " because we are heating the water under pressure, damn where's Rob when you need him?

Brad. Do you have a Water fogger to hand? You've already done a compression test to determine your compression ratio, could you retest with added moisture? The results will determine whether the project is viable, IMO.

Cheers Graham.

Hi Graham
Yes,water expands 1700 times at 100*C,but that is at atmospheric pressure-->14.7psi

The question i have asked my self regarding this idea,is why dose a diesel engine stops when water gets through the fuel system,to the injector ?.
One would think if it was going to work,it would work in this situation,where the injector injects the water as a mist through the injector just before TDC when the compressed air inside the combustion chamber is at peak temperature.
With a diesel,that is close to 600*C

Yes,i have a misting unit i am putting together ATM.
I will run the test as soon as it is complete.


Brad


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Hi Graham
Yes,water expands 1700 times at 100*C,but that is at atmospheric pressure-->14.7psi

The question i have asked my self regarding this idea,is why dose a diesel engine stops when water gets through the fuel system,to the injector ?.
One would think if it was going to work,it would work in this situation,where the injector injects the water as a mist through the injector just before TDC when the compressed air inside the combustion chamber is at peak temperature.
With a diesel,that is close to 600*C

Yes,i have a misting unit i am putting together ATM.
I will run the test as soon as it is complete.


Brad

Hi Brad.

Hmmm, yes when you replace the Diesel fuel with water, ( which isn't a fuel in itself but is, once converted ) via the injector.

As stated previously a dry compression test versus a wet one might show a pressure increase, if so the project might be feasible.

I'm eagerly awaiting your next test Brad.

Cheers Graham.

Brad. I'm sorry, I missed a bit out. I'm wondering if there's a difference by the addition of the water during the intake
and following compression stroke rather than via the injector just before TDC ? Perhaps the " cooling " effect plays an important part?


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Hi Brad.

Hmmm, yes when you replace the Diesel fuel with water, ( which isn't a fuel in itself but is, once converted ) via the injector.

As stated previously a dry compression test versus a wet one might show a pressure increase, if so the project might be feasible.

I'm eagerly awaiting your next test Brad.

Cheers Graham.

Brad. I'm sorry, I missed a bit out. I'm wondering if there's a difference by the addition of the water during the intake
and following compression stroke rather than via the injector just before TDC ? Perhaps the " cooling " effect plays an important part?

yes the cooling of the gasses at the intake would result in a denser gas mix entering the combustion chamber.
As the mechanical compression ratio remains the same,this larger volume of gas would now have to be compressed into that same mechanical volume at TDC. This is why turbo chargers increase power and torque,as do intercoolers.

One would think the pressure would increase with the addition of water,due to the extra liquid in the cylinder now sealing the rings a little better. We see this when we do a dry and wet compression test.

Now,if the load was lifted a little from my electric motor that spins my ICE over when the water was added,that may indicate a motoring action .


Brad


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