Carbon Arc Gas plus Heat output

[TinMan]

EDIT-i have changed the title of the thread as stated now.

As some may know,i carried out some experiments on arc heating some time back.
Back then it was nicknamed !cold fusion!,although an incorrect description of what was happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ1RAznwgw

A few days ago,member Duncan posted a video on another thread showing this MagneGas production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRhcX-QUYE

So the plan here is to combine the two,where not only do we created heat (a waste product in the MagneGas system),but at the same time,produce the combustible MagneGas.

This gas is claimed to be more energy dense than LPG,and burns 4000*C hotter than Acetylene,while also requiring less volume to do so.

It can be produced using almost any waste liquid product,although here i will be using just water.

The required system voltage is between 30 and 50 volts DC--so well within our range.
Carbon rods are also required as the electrode's ,but they are an easy find--do you know where?

So,here is my plan.
I intend to make the simple setup shown in the second video,which is not that much different than the DUT i used in my test's. Not only will i be calculating the watt hours used to heat a set volume of water,but at the same time also producing the MagneGas.
As was calculated in my testing,the watt hours needed to raise the temperature of a given volume of water,ended in a near unity result-as it should,as we were just heating water by way of resistive heating-and some other small effects that may or may not have been there. The point is,if the same results can be had with the MagneGas setup,where we can raise the temperature of a given volume of water,at a 1:1 ratio of the power delivered to the system,but also produce a flammable gas to do useful work,i think this may just tip the scale's in favor of a COP>1 result.

My only concern is-how much of the carbon rods will be consumed in the process.
The carbon rods will of course be obtained from old non rechargeable batteries.

Evolvingape will be helping out on this one as well,as his hhop system has much to offer here i feel.

MagneGas is safe to compress to high pressures,which means it can be stored efficiently,and used to provide fuel for many systems.
It also has lower Co2 emissions than any other fossil fuel out there,and produces oxygen when burnt.
The fact that is uses a DC current,makes this fuel directly producible from solar panels.
So at the end of the day,you could be producing fuel free of charge-except the cost of the carbon rod's,and that will depend on how much of the carbon is consumed in the process.

More info to come as i find it.


Brad

[Duncan]

This 1898 patent cited by magnagas and others for your inspection
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US603058

[TinMan]

This 1898 patent cited by magnagas and others for your inspection
http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US603058

So it would seem that this magnegas system was designed and patented in the 1800s-
So how was magnegas able to patent it again?,as the system is the very same.


Brad

[Duncan]

Not an area I know much about Brad, but I think patents are only good for 20 years. Also the powers that be tend to copy and re-release patents (that have escaped their net)usually by proxy to prevent them being put into production. They call it 'ringing the patent' I recall MJN had the pleasure of this underhand treatment regarding one of his devices. when this fake inventor was phoned it quickly became apparent he had no idea how 'his invention worked'.another example would be the horizontally opposed ICE tied up by Bill Gates

[TinMan]

Not an area I know much about Brad, but I think patents are only good for 20 years. Also the powers that be tend to copy and re-release patents (that have escaped their net)usually by proxy to prevent them being put into production. They call it 'ringing the patent' I recall MJN had the pleasure of this underhand treatment regarding one of his devices. when this fake inventor was phoned it quickly became apparent he had no idea how 'his invention worked'.another example would be the horizontally opposed ICE tied up by Bill Gates

Well,i am not sure as to how you can patent a device when an existing expired patent already exists?.

The description in the MagneGas patent
Quote: An application for a recycler includes a pressure and temperature resistant metal vessel that is filled with a liquid. Within the vessel is at least one submerged electric arc between a pair of electrodes (e.g. carbon based electrodes) powered by either a DC or AC current. The electric arc produces a combustible gas as the liquid is pumped through a bore in one or both of the electrodes, delivering the liquid directly to the location of the arc, thereby reducing or eliminating any ignition of the gas by the arc.

And now the description in the Hilliary Eldridge patent of 1897
Quote: Our invention relates to electrical retorts for manufacturing hydrogen gas from Water to be utilized as a fuel for heating purposes. lVe construct the apparatus with electric appliances and With means for feeding Water thereto, so as to produce an electric are Within a closed vessel containing a suitable quantity of Water. The heat evolved by the electric are and the electrolytic action of the electric current on the Water operate to decompose the Water into its component elements, hydrogen and oxygen. The gas thus produced is conducted to a suitable gasometer containing a Water-bath. The oxygen, freed by the decomposition of the water in the retort, unites or combines with the vaporized carbon evolved by the consumption of the anodes and cathodes of the retort and produces carbonio-acid gas, the major portion of which is washed out or absorbed by the Water within the gasometor, to which the gas from the retort is conveyed.

These two systems are the very same,and give the very same results.
How has MagneGas got away with this?
This is not there invention at all,but they claim it is,and now making a great deal of money from some one elses idea.

Perhaps we stick to the original patent that has expired--would that remove us from any legalities from magnegas?,as we would be replicating the expired patent from 1897 

Anyone here reading this that is versed in patent legalities,have any idea as to where we would stand on this--should we decide to go larger than home experimenting ?.


Brad

[TinMan]

Below is a diagram from the 1897 patent,but i believe that a much more simple vessel can be made from RHS,with a size to suit your needs.

How safe is this gas?,well have a look at the below video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76oIcODTjJo





Brad

[Grumage]

Hi Brad.

Regarding the re patenting, I feel sure it's known as " prior art " perhaps someone didn't do their homework properly?

Another similar gas known as Dowson's gas was made by passing steam through an enclosed retort containing smouldering Peat. This was used to power early Gas ( town gas ) engines.

I often wondered whether this process could be modernised? It seems it was over 100 years ago!!

Cheers Graham.

[evolvingape]

Evolvingape will be helping out on this one as well,as his hhop system has much to offer here i feel.

I think hhop gen 2 hybrid would best suit your application here Brad. You don't need the liquid inlet non return valve, or it's water reservoir to refill the chamber, just close it off. The only matter leaving the system is the gas, burned to water into the second system.

Energy Input is equal to rise in system liquid temperature + losses to the environment. Fully insulated container energy in must equal energy out.

The gas pressure evolved is capable of doing work on a water column that is open to atmosphere. Potential energy is stored in the raised water at the end of your timed input energy cycle.

hhop gen 2 gas bypass tube is not on the hybrid drawing but should be included. All you have to do to convert a hhop gen 2 system to a hybrid is replace the sparkplug with a flow control shut off valve.

This allows you to store the matter phase change transition differential energy in the gas atmosphere reservoir, like a super massive low pressure (relevant ish) bladder accumulator.

The DC electrical energy input is controlled over a period of time and acts as the system prime mover. Total energy input is equal to specific heat rise in temperature of the liquid (without boiling).

The gas evolved can be measured as mentioned earlier by the potential energy stored in the raised water column. This can now be released to prime move the next part of the cycle.

The valve at the top of the chamber can now be opened and the combustible gas, waste product of the COP=1 heating cycle, will be pumped to atmosphere by the raised weight water column.

If you chose to burn this gas at a steady rate and heat a volume of water and add this to system energy output then if the primary heat cycle really is at or close to COP=1 then you will be COP>1 total system output.

The carbon rod consumption is the solid fuel rate input to the system. Similar to SMD.

[muDped]

Here's another approach to producing a fuel gas
employing a Carbon Arc.

Research has been done to "arc" sewage into a fuel
gas with good results.

More about Plasma Arc Gasification.

[TinMan]

Hi Brad.

Regarding the re patenting, I feel sure it's known as " prior art " perhaps someone didn't do their homework properly?

Another similar gas known as Dowson's gas was made by passing steam through an enclosed retort containing smouldering Peat. This was used to power early Gas ( town gas ) engines.

I often wondered whether this process could be modernised? It seems it was over 100 years ago!!

Cheers Graham.

Is that much the same as the wood gas setup's ?


Brad

[TinMan]

I think hhop gen 2 hybrid would best suit your application here Brad. You don't need the liquid inlet non return valve, or it's water reservoir to refill the chamber, just close it off. The only matter leaving the system is the gas, burned to water into the second system.

Energy Input is equal to rise in system liquid temperature + losses to the environment. Fully insulated container energy in must equal energy out.

The gas pressure evolved is capable of doing work on a water column that is open to atmosphere. Potential energy is stored in the raised water at the end of your timed input energy cycle.

hhop gen 2 gas bypass tube is not on the hybrid drawing but should be included. All you have to do to convert a hhop gen 2 system to a hybrid is replace the sparkplug with a flow control shut off valve.

This allows you to store the matter phase change transition differential energy in the gas atmosphere reservoir, like a super massive low pressure (relevant ish) bladder accumulator.

The DC electrical energy input is controlled over a period of time and acts as the system prime mover. Total energy input is equal to specific heat rise in temperature of the liquid (without boiling).

The gas evolved can be measured as mentioned earlier by the potential energy stored in the raised water column. This can now be released to prime move the next part of the cycle.

The valve at the top of the chamber can now be opened and the combustible gas, waste product of the COP=1 heating cycle, will be pumped to atmosphere by the raised weight water column.



The carbon rod consumption is the solid fuel rate input to the system. Similar to SMD.

If you chose to burn this gas at a steady rate and heat a volume of water and add this to system energy output then if the primary heat cycle really is at or close to COP=1 then you will be COP>1 total system output.

This is what im hoping for 
It is much the same as i have already done,but without the !carbonated ?! gas,as i was using different electrodes.

If i can achieve the same !heating a volume of liquid! results that i achieved before,but where the carbon rods are used to produce a stable gas fuel,then yes,we will be above a COP 1 .

I will begin constructing the DUT this weekend,and i already have a couple of small carbon rod's.
I want to find out how fast the rods are consumed in the process.


Brad

[TinMan]

Here's another approach to producing a fuel gas
employing a Carbon Arc.

Research has been done to "arc" sewage into a fuel
gas with good results.

More about Plasma Arc Gasification.

Quote: PAG transforms carbon-rich organic waste into long chain hydrocarbons in the form of a hydrogen-rich synthetic gas, which is used to generate clean heat and power. In the PAG process, the waste feedstock (such as sewage sludge) is streamed into a gasifier in dry or slurry form, where it reacts in an oxygen-starved environment with steam at elevated pressure and temperature.

The resulting synthetic gas is composed of about 85 percent carbon monoxide and hydrogen, with a small amount of carbon dioxide. The process results in minimal or greatly reduced emissions.

So,it would seem that it is quite common-and efficient 

Thanks for the info muDped


Brad

[TinMan]

Ok,progress report for this mornings work,and my nickname for the DUT

About 2/3rd's done building the ~PlazArc~ reactor.
The hardest bit was building the electrically isolated,sealed,adjustable carbon rod holder from scratch(on left side of reactor).

Just have to drill the holes in each of the rod holder's for the rods to fit into,and then held in place by a tapered gland retainer.
Then make the bolt on lid,with the blow off valve,and gas outlet.
Also two barbed hose fittings to be welded in,so as we can pump the water through a heat exchanger (small radiator),and make use of the waste heat.

Should have the DUT finished by tomorrow,along with it's first run.


Brad

[Duncan]

I'm Impressed! very nice!

[Chet K]

Looks like another "Rainmaker" ...a much more robust rainmaker

this time,  maybe figure a method to add all that rain she shakes from the heavens ....... to the measurement protocol....

 

although It does seem better shielded ? may not transmit as good ?

you should get some method for testing the _output_   Film ...or??

[TinMan]

Well i didnt even get to the workshop today,as got called into work for an emergency job.
Boss said it would only take a couple of hour;s---8 1/2 hours later 

Anyway,will try and get some done during the week,but it's quite cold in the evenings here ATM,so will see how we go.

Is anyone else going to be experimenting with this setup?.


Brad

[Peterae]

Here's a paper you maybe interested in.
http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/files/Poster/Gupta

[Duncan]

I'm having a little nibble at cavity/plate heaters in general Brad, a'la visiting that O'l chestnut of Peter Davey's et al. At least there's a little in common so no doubt we'll bump into each other soon enough.
As an example I suggest George Wiseman's observations at the very end of this web page might be of interest to you .
He was after browns gas but ended up with a 'wise heater ' which like most of us he's reluctant to claim as OU (but its obviously pretty close) Mr Dumas had no such hesitation 116% Oh, oh La la
http://www.rexresearch.com/dumas/dumas.htm
Kind regards Duncan

[TinMan]

Here's a paper you maybe interested in.
http://iccf18.research.missouri.edu/files/Poster/Gupta

Most interesting Peter--thanks
700% is a !big! gain,and would take some very bad calculation/measurements to get it that wrong.
This was with CEA (carbon electrode arc),which is what we will be doing.

I have also been watching a few video's of carbon arc lighting.
I see a lot of the old search lights were carbon arc lights,along with early cinema projection cameras.


Brad

[TinMan]

I'm having a little nibble at cavity/plate heaters in general Brad, a'la visiting that O'l chestnut of Peter Davey's et al. At least there's a little in common so no doubt we'll bump into each other soon enough.
As an example I suggest George Wiseman's observations at the very end of this web page might be of interest to you .
He was after browns gas but ended up with a 'wise heater ' which like most of us he's reluctant to claim as OU (but its obviously pretty close) Mr Dumas had no such hesitation 116% Oh, oh La la
http://www.rexresearch.com/dumas/dumas.htm
Kind regards Duncan

Ah yes-cavitation heat.

I remember when i was racing boat's,if you had the prop trimmed to high,it would cavitate,and melt the tips of the prop--and these were thick S/S prop's.


Brad

[TinMan]

And here is another name for it-->AquaFuel

http://tesla3.com/free_websites/cold_fusion.html

Quote: To make AquaFuel - a low voltage/high amperage ac or dc electric arc tunnels through water between the tips of carbon electrodes. The 5,000 to 7,000 oF heat from the arc dissociates nearby water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Carbon atoms break loose from the electrodes and form bonds in this high energy plasma soup. The resulting hydrogen/carbon/oxygen molecules cool and bubble up to the surface in the surrounding water.

... Nontoxic carbon dioxide and water vapor are the exhaust products from AquaFuel and air combustion. Hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, and carbon monoxide emissions are negligible even without any pollution control equipment of any type.
Automobile engine oil stays clean and lasts long - reducing the need for frequent oil changing and cutting waste oil disposal problems. AquaFuel combustion creates lower exhaust gas and engine oil temperatures - helping to preserve oil integrity while the system runs cooler than burning gasoline in the same engine producing nearly the same power.

... AquaFuel could be marketed for use in all engines, needing only the addition of simple intake adapters such as found on fleet vehicles converted to run on natural gas or propane. AquaFuel can supply the market requirement for fueling thermal electric power generation, internal combustion engines, furnaces, heaters, stoves, and desalinization systems...


Seems to me that MagneGas are only one of many who have this gas production method.

So now all we have to do is use both the heat output(possible LENR effect there when using carbon rod arc),and the combustible gas as a fuel source.
The combination of the two has a very good chance of tipping the COP in favor of 1>+


Brad

[TinMan]

Also found this web page.
This is sounding promising 

http://blazelabs.com/n-aquagen.asp

Quote: INPUT=Watt hr/Litre of our generator = 5400/(40*60)= 2.25 Whr/Litre

OUTPUT=COH2 quoted energy = 380 BTU/cf = 3.93 Whr/Litre

Fuel Conversion efficiency = 3.93/2.25 = 175%, COP=1.75

This confirms a gas production process COP>1.

And clean--see test chart below.


Brad

[Peterae]

Hi Tinman
I'm not sure if you add anything to your water, but the Arie Degues patent suggested adding a lithium, Beryllium or Boron atom into a gasoline fuel mixture to add a Nuclear fusion event drastically increasing MPG, well it has occurred to me you could do the same here, maybe try a weak solution of Boric Acid in your water and see what difference there is. 

[Duncan]

In this area  - This guy and these claims have nagged at the back of my mind , so just in passing and a possible alternative to carbon http://www.electricitybook.com/cornish-generator/
(research on that patent quoted brings much more to light)

[TinMan]

Hi Tinman
I'm not sure if you add anything to your water, but the Arie Degues patent suggested adding a lithium, Beryllium or Boron atom into a gasoline fuel mixture to add a Nuclear fusion event drastically increasing MPG, well it has occurred to me you could do the same here, maybe try a weak solution of Boric Acid in your water and see what difference there is. 

Hi Peter.

The good thing is,that once i have the unit up and running,we can try a number of thing's.

I read in one of the many web sites i have been looking at,that adding a small amount of sugar to the water will extend the life of the carbon rods by 100%,without effecting the gas output or it's quality.

It also seems that we can use either DC or AC,and so by using AC,we eliminate any chance of producing HHO,and so no flashbacks into the reactor  .

Im hoping that Steve Jones and ION will join in,once i have it up and running,as They are well versed in Calorimetric measurements.


Brad