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Author Topic: partzmans board ATL  (Read 63629 times)
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Hi Jon,

Does the orientation of the plates need to be vertical ?

I want try and scale this up and build a low power oscillator.

My plan is to wind a spiral cap with a roll of copper foil to fill a large torroid I have .
Also in my collection are 50 or so 1uf stacked plate caps from my radio days.
Great work ,it aligns with early tpu builds and Mikes extraordinary contributions.
   
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Hi Jon,

Does the orientation of the plates need to be vertical ?

I want try and scale this up and build a low power oscillator.

My plan is to wind a spiral cap with a roll of copper foil to fill a large torroid I have .
Also in my collection are 50 or so 1uf stacked plate caps from my radio days.
Great work ,it aligns with early tpu builds and Mikes extraordinary contributions.

Hi 3D,

From my experiments no, the plates do not need to be vertical.  Some think the plates must be horizontal to work but that does not seem to be the case.  I have used horizontally stacked plate capacitors and they work well in this application.  Please keep us posted on your progress.

BTW, I have requested Peter to make this thread public again!

Pm
   
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3D,

In your experiments be aware that everything in the E-Field core area is subject to charge separation.  If you find that your arrangement does not appear to resonate, you will need to apply a bias voltage to the capacitance to provide a potential difference between L and C that will then create a resonant condition.  The bias voltage used should be equal to the V/turn of the primary.  Then, the first half cycle of resonance should approach ground or zero volts as much as possible.  To keep a periodic resonance going with successive cycles, the voltage across C must be reset to zero potential at the end of each half cycle.

Pm
   
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All good here,
A mosfet gate is also a capacitor. O0
   

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Buy me some coffee
Bump
   
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I have decided to place this thread in the public domain with it's myriad of subjects.  Perhaps there will be some inspiration here for FE development.

Regards,
Pm
   
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I would like to explain my perspective on what I call "transposition" of a voltage source using charge separation in the E-Field of a closed flux core arrangement, ie a toroid.  For one example of transposing a voltage source, I refer to my Li-on charging experiment   
here

Like transposing a chord in a musical scale, a voltage source can be transposed in the E-Field via a charge separation potential gradient.  This comes with certain advantages in the FE pursuit.

Here, I will show the transposition of a charged capacitor placed in the core of a toroid and subjected to this charge separation.  First we see the schematic of the circuit.  Here we see C1 pre-charged to 4 volts thru R1 with a 20 ohm load connected thru D2 to the mosfet switch M1.  The M1 gate drive is synchronized with V1 such that the 20 ohm load is only connected when a positive voltage of 48v is applied to L1 for the first half cycle.  During the second half cycle when the energy accumulated in L1 is returned to the 48v supply V1, M1 is not conducting.  We will ignore these input energy levels in L1 for the time being.

With the supply of 48v DC and 12 turns in L1, we will be applying ~4v/turn to the primary L1.  We will then expect to see the voltage on C1 to increase ~4v with the positive pulse applied to L1.

Scope 'Cap Trans1' shows the voltage increase across C1 to ~7.9v and we also see a decrease in the voltage across C1 down to 6.72v due to the load current in R1.  We also see the the mean current thru R1 to be 324.6ma over 12.09us for an energy level of .3246^2*20*12.09e-6=25.5uJ.  The apparent loss in C1 is (7.92^2-6.72^2)*4e-6/2=35.1uJ.

'Cap Trans2' shows the starting voltage across C1 to be 3.88v and ending voltage to be 2.88v.  This results in an actual energy loss in C1 to be (3.88^2-2.88^2)*4e-6/2=13.5uJ.  The difference in energy levels in C1 is made up in the input energies so no free lunch at this point in time.  However, if we can discharge a transposed voltage source with these results, what will be the result if we charge a transposed voltage source?

Also, when the voltage across L1 is negative and we see the positive terminal of C1 negative, the voltage internal to C1 on the grounded plate is ~4v more negative than the positive terminal (same as in the Li-on experiment) and is most important when considering the RLE circuit requirements.
Pm
   
« Last Edit: 2026-02-15, 17:39:45 by partzman »
   
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Here is the transposition of one 18650 Lion cell for one cycle.

The schematic shows a different scheme for switching the primaries to achieve ~ +8v positive and ~ -4v charge separations.  L1 and L2 are closely coupled.

LTS1,2 and 3 show the start, positive, and minus voltage levels on the positive terminal the Lion cell.

LTS4 and 5 show the energies drawn from and returned to the power supply Vs plus the differential time periods for the primaries. 

The key takeaway from this is that the positive terminal on the Lion cell has ~ -4.3v during the negative charge separation.  At this time, the top of the outside case of the cell is at ~ -8.3v (not shown).

Pm

   

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Probe positions ?
   
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Probe positions ?

In all the scope pix, the probe positions are the same. 

CH1(yel) is the "on" pulse for S1. 

CH2(blu) is the power supply voltage, Vs.

CH3(pnk) is the voltage measured on the positive pin of the Lion cell, Vcell.

CH4(grn) is the conventional current measured in the power supply line, Vs.

Math(red) is the averaged sum of the sampled products of CH2*CH4.

Pm
   

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Are these probes isolated ?
Where are their ground references ?
   
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Are these probes isolated ?
Where are their ground references ?

No, the probes are not isolated. 

Their ground reference is the ground indication on the schematic. 

FWIW, the MDO3034 Tek scope I'm using has CH1 and CH3 grounds connected together and CH2 and CH4 connected together internally.  This info was supplied by a Tek engineer.

Pm
   

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I think benefit might be gained if the E = -dA/dt electric field in the toroid donut hole could affect the cell performance by driving ions in the electrolyte.  The cylindrical cell having coaxial electrodes is not the right geometry for this, it needs parallel plate geometry.

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I think benefit might be gained if the E = -dA/dt electric field in the toroid donut hole could affect the cell performance by driving ions in the electrolyte.  The cylindrical cell having coaxial electrodes is not the right geometry for this, it needs parallel plate geometry.

Smudge

I agree with you in general regarding the electrodes being coaxial.  However, two coaxial electrodes with a charge placed between them makes all the difference.  Before charge separation, the first electrode is at ground potential and the second electrode is at some |dV| potential in reference to ground.  During charge separation, this |dV| potential exists between the two plates and the charge separation voltage |csV|, creates a voltage gradient in the first electrode and a voltage potential of |csv|+|dV| in the second electrode.

In my earlier charge separation electrolysis I used vertical coaxial plates.  It will be interesting to now try parallel horizontal plates to see if any ion activity would be present!

Pm
   

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I think benefit might be gained if the E = -dA/dt electric field in the toroid donut hole could affect the cell performance by driving ions in the electrolyte. 
Can an electric field exist inside an electrolyte?
   

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Can an electric field exist inside an electrolyte?

Interesting thought...   similar to mag fields existing in metals.  and maybe similar as in how the mag field is concentrated in iron and the iron even magnetized, then electrolyte may or does something similar with electric fields..


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Attached below is a limited schematic for one example of a potential OU application utilizing RLE and a transposed charge separated Lion battery.  This design has a theoretical COP=2.00 but in practice will be less than this due to losses.

The box containing L1 and the Lion battery is the charge separation generator with a 4v/turn primary, L1.  T1 is a constant current generator with Lcc being pre-charged to the required level of current and controlled by Lp.  Both are switched at a 50/50 duty cycle.  V3 and V4 are 4v and 8v fixed DC supplies respectively.

For the first half cycle, the constant current in Lcc is connected between V3 and V4.  The differential voltage across V3 is 4v as determined by Lp.  Therefore, the current in Lcc is drawing energy from V3 (4v) while supplying energy to V4 (8v).  It should be obvious that this is a gain of 2:1.  Vcell will also be transposed to 8v at this time but is ignored.

For the second half cycle, the voltage polarity across Lcc reverses, the current direction remains the same and Lcc is now connected between V3 and Vcell.  The Lion battery is transposed at this point by L1 such that the positive terminal is now 0v.  Therefore, the current in Lcc is now drawing energy from V3 (4v) and supplying current to Vcell |4v| with the differential voltage across Lcc being 4v.  This is now a 1:1 energy transfer.

For the complete cycle, the voltage differential across Lcc maintains the previously set constant current in Lcc so repetitive cycles may follow.  Also per each cycle, the energy collected in Vcell is returned to V3.

Pm
   
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This is an alternate option to the previous post which is also utilizing RLE and a transposed charge separated Lion battery.  The potential COP=infinity however, after losses the realistic COP will be >2.

In the schematic below, during the first half cycle, a 4v/turn positive pulse is applied to L1, Vcell is therefore transposed to +8v.  A fixed constant positive current in Lcc is then applied between Vcell and Vs thus charging Vs over this time.  The energy taken from Vcell is equal to I(Lcc)*4 because Vcell is transposed.

During the second half cycle, a 4v/turn negative pulse is applied to L1 and the positive terminal of Vcell is transposed to zero volts.  During this time, the positive constant current in Lcc is applied to Vcell thus charging Vcell during this time.  Therefore, the energy taken from Vcell in the first half cycle is restored in the second half cycle thus providing the theoretical COP=infinity.

Due to the voltage levels applied to Lcc during both half cycles, Lcc retains it's constant current magnitude meaning the cycles may be repeated as desired.

Pm   

   
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Can an electric field exist inside an electrolyte?

When there is a voltage across a conductor, there must be a current. If there is no current, it is because the voltage source has caused a rearrangement of the free charges or ions that cancels it out.


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The previous OU examples suffer the short coming of Lenz.  This example however is Lenz free due to the fact that all induction between C1 and the Lion battery is done inside the core holding L1.  With no current loop encircling the core, no Lenz reflection is presented to L1.  This version is therefore the highest efficiency of all presented.

Lca and Lcb are ideally bifilar wound for tight coupling and comprise a constant current inductor with sufficient inductance to maintain a reasonable constant current over the operational cycles.  C1 is of sufficient value so as to maintain a reasonable constant voltage over the operational cycles.  C1 and the Lion are physically located in the center of the core holding L1 such that the E-Field present via voltage applied to L1 charge separates both equally.  The quiescent voltage across C1 equals the voltage across the Lion battery which also equals the v/t of L1.

During the first half cycle of operation when L1 is presented a positive voltage, both C1 and Lion are transposed positively by the v/t of L1.  The constant current in Lca therefore transfers energy from C1 to Lion with a slight reduction in voltage across C1 and a slight reduction in current in Lca.

During the second half of operation when L1 is presented a negative voltage, both L1 and Lion are transposed negatively via the v/t of L1.  The voltage loss in C1 above now results in the terminal voltage of C1 to be negative.  Therefore, the constant current in Lcb now results in the voltage loss in C1 to be restored and the current loss in Lca to be restored, thus returning both to their starting energy levels when using 50% duty cycles.

The energy consumed by L1 during the first half cycle is returned to it's supply during the second half cycle at a very high efficiency, resulting in a high COP. 

Regards,
Pm

Edit: Changed schematic.

Edit2:  I have experienced difficulty with this circuit so it now is a work in progress. 
« Last Edit: 2026-06-26, 14:56:19 by partzman »
   

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Could you attach an annotated photo with the components clearly labeled ...and probe positions, too ?

Something like this below...
   
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Could you attach an annotated photo with the components clearly labeled ...and probe positions, too ?

Something like this below...

There is a problem with the concept as presented.  If a solution is possible, I will be happy to provide the info you've requested.

Pm
   

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The concept of photo annotation is a problem ?
   
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The concept of photo annotation is a problem ?
No, no!  A problem with the circuit itself!

I'm sorry but I'm going to seek medical advice for a problem I've had for the last 6 weeks or so.  I may not be available for awhile.

Will keep you posted.

Pm
   
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No, no!  A problem with the circuit itself!

I'm sorry but I'm going to seek medical advice for a problem I've had for the last 6 weeks or so.  I may not be available for awhile.

Will keep you posted.

Pm

Please take care of yourself,  Pm!   Praying for you and your health.

 And thank you so much for sharing information regarding your research!
   
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