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Author Topic: partzmans board ATL  (Read 36294 times)
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Wow, the silence here is deafening  ??? !  So what's the problem?  Y'all don't believe it, don't get it, or don't give a $#%*?  If you detect a slight amount of frustration, congratulate yourself!

Anyway, for those who like stuff that rotates, here is a real world application of my post #40 that can easily be built to prove the concept in the form of a reluctance generator.

Take a coil, place it on a core that has a gap and we'll call the normal inductance of this arrangement Lg.  Next, fabricate a rotor with at least two segments that has a thickness that will reasonably fit in the gap in said core.  This rotor can be made of a ferromagnetic, paramagnetic, or diamagnetic material of one's choosing.  With the rotor positioned in the gap, the coil inductance will now be Lr. 

With a ferromagnetic rotor, Lr>Lg.  With a paramagnetic or diamagnetic rotor, Lg>Lr.  Aluminum in 3003/H14 makes a nice choice for a paramagnetic rotor and can yield reasonably high Lg/Lr ratios and is easy to work.

The rest is academic if you are a builder and understand my post #40.

If you build it, at least give me some credit.

Regards,
Pm   
   

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Hi Partzman
Sounds amazing, I think its impossible for me to comment/ add or reinforce your findings so far, you and your knowledge on the subject are miles ahead of me and my knowledge, chances are you are the expert, maybe Ortho can comment as he is probably up at your level but it seems he is having tech problems, I am wondering how many of the 18 members in this group are in a position to be able comment, just trying to help understand the silence.

So the challenge is for members to build it, are you not going to build it to prove the theory?


   
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Hi Partzman
Sounds amazing, I think its impossible for me to comment/ add or reinforce your findings so far, you and your knowledge on the subject are miles ahead of me and my knowledge, chances are you are the expert, maybe Ortho can comment as he is probably up at your level but it seems he is having tech problems, I am wondering how many of the 18 members in this group are in a position to be able comment, just trying to help understand the silence.

So the challenge is for members to build it, are you not going to build it to prove the theory?

Hi Peter,

Since I'm not into things that rotate, I'll probably not build it unless there is no one here that is interested.  If I do, I would first attempt a pendulum to prove the general theory. 

ATM, I'm working on a solid state version which is more to my liking.

Regards,
Pm

   
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Dear partzman

I am very interested in your work but I'm not in fit condition to build right now. The solid state version would be of interest providing the circuitry is not too difficult, else I'll go for the rotating version.

Thanks for sharing your excellent work, it is appreciated.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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I thought this board very limited membership ?

We can commission a build ,and should IMO

Partzman
can I ring you tomorrow to discuss ?

thanks for all you do .

   

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Hi PM

I think I know exactly where you are with this but just don't have the time atm

Regards

Mike 8)


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Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Ditto here PM,

following along, but other matters (wife's health) are taking priorities at the moment.

Hope you will continue to post your findings, thanks.

Itsu
   

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I feel privileged to be here Jon.  O0

However, as Peter has posted, I'm not even remotely qualified in this area of research.

What remaining " stuffing " I had was knocked out earlier this year with one thing or another, my MOJO is at an all time low, haven't set foot into my workshop in months. I have, quite literally become " Renaissance man " courtesy Poynt!

I'm always eager to see those > symbols appear in your posts so please don't stop the research.   O0

Kind regards, Graham.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Dear partzman

I am very interested in your work but I'm not in fit condition to build right now. The solid state version would be of interest providing the circuitry is not too difficult, else I'll go for the rotating version.

Thanks for sharing your excellent work, it is appreciated.

Hi Ion,

Hopefully the SS version will not be that complicated circuit wise but the transformer may be a different story.  Take care and I hope you get to feeling better soon.

Pm
   
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I thought this board very limited membership ?

We can commission a build ,and should IMO

Partzman
can I ring you tomorrow to discuss ?

thanks for all you do .

Chet,

I was surprised at the 18 member count as I thought it was less in my own mind.  Anyway, I'm sure anyone who will attempt the rotary device will have questions and it doesn't need to be a full blown build to do a POC.  A simple pendulum device should be able to show any gains with just a single coil.

You can call as I will be around.

Pm
   
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Hi PM

I think I know exactly where you are with this but just don't have the time atm

Regards

Mike 8)

Hi Mike,

I understand and I would say stay focused on your Steap project.  I don't comment much on your thread but I do follow closely so keep up the good work!

Pm
   
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Ditto here PM,

following along, but other matters (wife's health) are taking priorities at the moment.

Hope you will continue to post your findings, thanks.

Itsu

Itsu,

I do plan to continue posting results and I also can relate to health problems in the family as we have some of our own.  I hope your wife's health will improve.

Pm
   
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I feel privileged to be here Jon.  O0

However, as Peter has posted, I'm not even remotely qualified in this area of research.

What remaining " stuffing " I had was knocked out earlier this year with one thing or another, my MOJO is at an all time low, haven't set foot into my workshop in months. I have, quite literally become " Renaissance man " courtesy Poynt!

I'm always eager to see those > symbols appear in your posts so please don't stop the research.   O0

Kind regards, Graham.

Thanks Graham.  I can relate to the "stuffing" thing as it seems as we get older (78 years here) more "stuff" can go wrong than right.  I hope you recover your Mojo and are able to get back in the shop and do what you really like.

I'm thinking it shouldn't be too long before we know if those sim results are accurately representing the real world!

Regards,
Pm
   

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Wow, the silence here is deafening  ??? !  So what's the problem?  Y'all don't believe it, don't get it, or don't give a $#%*?  If you detect a slight amount of frustration, congratulate yourself!

Anyway, for those who like stuff that rotates, here is a real world application of my post #40 that can easily be built to prove the concept in the form of a reluctance generator.

Take a coil, place it on a core that has a gap and we'll call the normal inductance of this arrangement Lg.  Next, fabricate a rotor with at least two segments that has a thickness that will reasonably fit in the gap in said core.  This rotor can be made of a ferromagnetic, paramagnetic, or diamagnetic material of one's choosing.  With the rotor positioned in the gap, the coil inductance will now be Lr. 

With a ferromagnetic rotor, Lr>Lg.  With a paramagnetic or diamagnetic rotor, Lg>Lr.  Aluminum in 3003/H14 makes a nice choice for a paramagnetic rotor and can yield reasonably high Lg/Lr ratios and is easy to work.

The rest is academic if you are a builder and understand my post #40.

If you build it, at least give me some credit.

Regards,
Pm   
Hi PM,
Not been logging in much so missed your post.  Aspden had things to say about reluctance motors, claiming OU but he didn't do the analysis correctly.  I wrote a critique some time back, I'll see if I can find it.

Smudge
   
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Hi PM,
Not been logging in much so missed your post.  Aspden had things to say about reluctance motors, claiming OU but he didn't do the analysis correctly.  I wrote a critique some time back, I'll see if I can find it.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,

Yes, I remember your work analyzing Aspden's reluctance motor.  It would be interesting to read that again if you can locate your paper.

Regards,
Pm
   

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Hi PM,

I can't find it on my computer.  I do remember posting it on Naudin's site.

Smudge
   
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Hi PM,

I can't find it on my computer.  I do remember posting it on Naudin's site.

Smudge

Hi Smudge,

OK, thanks for looking.

I thought I had every paper you've ever posted publicly but I couldn't find it on my computer either.  I'll go look on JLN's website to see if I can find it.

Pm
   
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Peter,

Would you mind listing those members who have access to this thread?

For some reason I thought there were fewer members than 18.

Thanks.

Regards,
Pm
   
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All (Whoever you are),

Let's leave the sims for a moment and return to the bench.  The following is the result of bench testing a parametric coil assembly biased with a constant current as previously disclosed in my RLE papers.  I am withholding the build details of the coil assembly at this point in time and only wish to demonstrate the POC.

In reference to the schematic, L2 is the constant current inductor feeding the parametric inductor L1 and for this example, the constant current is ~500ma.  Lc is the control inductor and is biased for this example at 300ma.  When the current in Lc is 300ma, L1=Lmin and when the current in Lc is zero, L1=Lmax.

The next figure is the energy cost to charge Lc to 300ma which is 2.355*75.05e-6=177uJ.

The next two scope pix show the inductance profile Lmin and Lmax respectively of L1 with Lc=300ma.  We see Lmin=2.18mH and Lmax=5.12mH.

The next two scope pix show the operational current measurements prior to and following the change in inductance of L1 respectively.  Prior to the trigger point at 40us, L1=Lmin and following the fall of CH3(magenta) at ~82us, L1=Lmax.  From these measurements we can do the energy calculations.  The starting energy in Lmin is UL1min=.5099^2*.00218/2=283.4uJ.  The ending energy in L1max is UL1max=.5103^2*.00512/2=666.6uJ.
Interesting number, no?

We have not mentioned the energy required to charge L2 but that is not necessary because it will only be charged one time and will maintain it's current level or increase as is shown in this example.  The energy gain in L2 for this example is UL2(gain)=(.5103^2-.5099^2)*.1028/2=21uJ.

The last scope pix is the energy recovery in Lc during it's field collapse into the dc supply V3.  Here we see the recovery energy is ULc(recovery)=155uJ.  The initial energy cost to charge Lc is 177uJ leaving a net cost of 177uJ-155uJ= 22uJ.  Since the differential between the energy gain in L2 and the loss in Lc is 1uJ, it will be ignored and we will simply compare the starting and ending energies in L1 for any gain.

So, the starting energy in L1min is 283.4uJ and the ending energy in L1max is 666.6uJ therefore, the COP is 666.6uJ/283.4uJ=2.35 which is very close to the ratio of the parametric inductance values as I had predicted based on my previous simulation research in RLE. 

This POC demonstrates that a gain can be generated in a properly arranged parametric inductor powered by a constant current source.  I do have a theory as to how the gain is achieved but that is for later.

Regards,
Pm       


 
   

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Hi PM

STEAP originated some years back using parametrics with a 4 coil CMC, there are circuits of mine around on the internet which were also associated with the late Dr, R S as we did do some work together in private, his was called ECAT but basically were the same. They were overunity but we could never get them to self-run because they would detune.

I still use the name as you know but going down a different avenue :)  I think you may have a better idea of how to loop it so as to make it run with a net output.

Best regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Hi PM

STEAP originated some years back using parametrics with a 4 coil CMC, there are circuits of mine around on the internet which were also associated with the late Dr, R S as we did do some work together in private, his was called ECAT but basically were the same. They were overunity but we could never get them to self-run because they would detune.

I still use the name as you know but going down a different avenue :)  I think you may have a better idea of how to loop it so as to make it run with a net output.

Best regards

Mike 8)
Hi Mike,

If I can be of any help I would be glad to do so.  I've been busy with the above research but I am following your work and have stayed in the background.

Regards,
Pm
   
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Hi PM,

I'm glad I finally have a chance to comment! I think your idea is brilliant. To put it in simple terms that I can understand :-), you eliminate back reaction in either inductive or parametric transformers/generators by the simple expedient of controlling the output current. Obviously if I doesn't change in the output coil, there can be no change in flux, thus no induction or mu change in the primary. Is it possible to argue with that?

I seem to remember you doing some experiments on the MEG which showed increased output with a nonlinear resistor. Your principle would imply that a fixed nonlinear load would show gain in certain V ranges.

Jumping on to practical application (dying planet and all that), I think a solid state parametric version is best because it's well suited to unipolar operation. A rotary device will likely have a bipolar I, in which case your constant current condition can't be maintained through a full cycle. At some point I will change as it switches from side to side, and loading will occur-- unless you cut the load out in that brief interval, which increases the circuit complexity.

For an inductive version, I suggest a unipolar CLC resonant transfer circuit, where capacitors bounce charge back and forth through an inductor with relatively low losses. The inductor is the primary with your constant current inductor as the secondary. The same scheme could be used in a parametric version, most efficiently the classic two toroid mag amp, using square loop materials. Of course the bouncing pulse will be very nonlinear, but AFAIK the CLC will still work.

To me, the biggest barrier to practical application is the variable load. You need a converter to take the fixed I/variable V and convert it to fixed I/fixed V so you can power a normal load. This means your output circuit is more complicated, having two modules, a constant current sink and an AC-DC converter or the like.

This is a very broad principle with a lot of applications. I've done patent searches on the concept now, and it can be patented if framed properly. If you want to patent to maintain control of the technology, it would be wise to not reveal full details of your actual builds.

Good work, PM!

Fred
   
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Hi PM,

I'm glad I finally have a chance to comment! I think your idea is brilliant. To put it in simple terms that I can understand :-), you eliminate back reaction in either inductive or parametric transformers/generators by the simple expedient of controlling the output current. Obviously if I doesn't change in the output coil, there can be no change in flux, thus no induction or mu change in the primary. Is it possible to argue with that?

Thanks Fred.  Yes, you are absolutely correct but I wonder how many actually "see" it!  I am finding more applications of cc and it may answer why certain patents have never been replicated such as Kunel.

Quote
I seem to remember you doing some experiments on the MEG which showed increased output with a nonlinear resistor. Your principle would imply that a fixed nonlinear load would show gain in certain V ranges.

I would like to return to that MEG experiment someday because 3D printers now allow easy fabrication of the bobbins needed for the secondary windings to prevent high voltage breakdown.  Narrow bobbins that would slip over the core and go around the bend in the core to be positioned on the end of the "U" would allow the winding to be done off the core.  It was real tricky and frustrating to wind 800-1000 turns on the core only to have them break down in operation.

Quote

Jumping on to practical application (dying planet and all that), I think a solid state parametric version is best because it's well suited to unipolar operation. A rotary device will likely have a bipolar I, in which case your constant current condition can't be maintained through a full cycle. At some point I will change as it switches from side to side, and loading will occur-- unless you cut the load out in that brief interval, which increases the circuit complexity.

I totally agree!  For a rotary device, the reluctance type would possibly be more effective depending on whether eddy currents would be present in the rotor.  A PM device could also be built but as you say, the complexity would be greater and it may not be any more efficient. 

Quote
For an inductive version, I suggest a unipolar CLC resonant transfer circuit, where capacitors bounce charge back and forth through an inductor with relatively low losses. The inductor is the primary with your constant current inductor as the secondary. The same scheme could be used in a parametric version, most efficiently the classic two toroid mag amp, using square loop materials. Of course the bouncing pulse will be very nonlinear, but AFAIK the CLC will still work.

Interesting idea and one worthy of experiment.  What is not apparent perhaps at first, is that with an inductor used for the current source on the secondary and proper voltage polarities, the resonant shuttling of energy in the primary could create more energy in the current inductor than is drawn from the shuttle action.  Switch timing would be required but it is doable.
   
Quote
To me, the biggest barrier to practical application is the variable load. You need a converter to take the fixed I/variable V and convert it to fixed I/fixed V so you can power a normal load. This means your output circuit is more complicated, having two modules, a constant current sink and an AC-DC converter or the like.

Yes you are right.  At this point, I see the output only being DC so an inverter is definitely required for AC loads.  The energy out of the DC device can be controlled in a number of ways so that isn't a problem.
 
Quote
This is a very broad principle with a lot of applications. I've done patent searches on the concept now, and it can be patented if framed properly. If you want to patent to maintain control of the technology, it would be wise to not reveal full details of your actual builds.

Yes I agree and as you very well know, this raises the problem for any inventor today that possesses certain technology.  One can have the greatest intentions of open source but the fact remains, our current patent law states "first to file" and basically means if some unscrupulous individual steals an idea and files with the patent office and a patent is awarded, they own the technology.  The original inventor must now go through the courts to try and fight to overturn the patent with his/her public documentation, but, since it is no longer "first to invent", it would be most difficult to accomplish.  For example, suppose for a moment it was a large corporation with lots of resources and legal beagles that was the thief!   
 
Quote
Good work, PM!

Thanks again Fred!

Regards,
Pm
Quote
Fred
   
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 Sorry to interrupt I felt the need to add something
Recently we were trying to get an individual to open source his technology
which he was selling for millions of dollars

He had no patents... which was no concern to us as the funds would come from Angel donors looking for no return other than that the technology be open sourced


However he seemed very firm on his stance that “copyright was rocksolid protection and apparently approached individuals (investors) with this.... like it was of great value!

 Is copywriting viable ?

Chet K
Ps regarding this person we were trying to work with
It all became quite fuzzy when we spoke of proper measurement protocols

Not moving forward at this time

Perhaps a donor model could work here ?

I always felt a free energy patent was like handing a man a stick to beat you with
   
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Sorry to interrupt I felt the need to add something
Recently we were trying to get an individual to open source his technology
which he was selling for millions of dollars

He had no patents... which was no concern to us as the funds would come from Angel donors looking for no return other than that the technology be open sourced

However he seemed very firm on his stance that “copyright was rocksolid protection and apparently approached individuals (investors) with this.... like it was of great value!

 Is copywriting viable ?

Chet,

I will give you my opinion on the matter based on my experience of having my patents infringed by large companies plus the Chinese and my limited knowledge of current patent law.  The danger in your example of the Angel donors buying unprotected intellectual property is that once the tech was revealed, a quick search of the patent database would reveal no applications for said technology was pending.  Filings could then be done and the investors would have to spend time and money to defend what they paid for.  IOW, they wouldn't own that which they paid for.

The copyrights would prove that xxx invented the tech on such and such a date, but the international law is "first to file".  It would be a monumental task to overcome this law as it presently stands in the courts IMO.  I'm not saying it could not be overturned, but I would never invest in such a situation myself.

I have used copyright law and it is good for just that, copy protection.  I'm afraid any good attorney would rebuke an inventor trying to use copyright law to protect IP that would normally be protected by patent law.  Just my opinion.

Quote
Chet K
Ps regarding this person we were trying to work with
It all became quite fuzzy when we spoke of proper measurement protocols

Not moving forward at this time

Perhaps a donor model could work here ?

I always felt a free energy patent was like handing a man a stick to beat you with

In a way I agree in this regard- A patent held by an individual or small group can be copied and produced by a larger entity which is patent infringement.  The problem then is, the small guy must get legal and demand a cease and desist.  If ignored, the only option is the courts.  So, small entities will always be squashed if the IP is worthy such as a FE device.  One method to avoid this problem is to patent and exclusively license to a partner capable of doing the court battles for you.  Not necessarily what we would like to do but at least the inventor is protected.

So, what is the option?  The inventor can try the open source route or any other like option.  Now we're back to the stolen IP and "first to file" battles and having to satisfy any donors.  Perhaps there are donors who wouldn't care but I don't know if they really exist because I've never looked. 

The patent system in the US used to protect the small inventor but somewhere along the line, it was changed to favor the large corporations.  And of course there's China which doesn't honor any international patent law and they can copy and produce product far beyond most people's comprehension.

Maybe that's the answer- Just give it to the Chinese and let them have at it!

Regards,
Pm 
   
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