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Author Topic: The Non-Sense Pulse Motor.  (Read 11450 times)

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Exactly as it should be O0

CSR2 will have a constant current at this 5% duty, it is the CSR2 which is giving the real current from both sources (battery+C1 in parallel).

The scope can't measure the CSR1 current to the C1 because the battery is 100% of the time across C1, CSR1 sees a current when C1 drops in voltage compared to the battery only.

As I have said T (time) is not taken into consideration when two sources (battery+ cap) do not work the same on discharge and the battery is 100% all the time connected to the cap.

Regards

Mike 8)

PS. The very interesting thing for me is what is happening on the other side of the transistor, the coil and magnet, magnetic compression of a magnetic field, one field to compress and two fields springing back :D


Mike,

i think you are right, but i just cannot see it (yet).

I tried your earlier suggestion by putting a similar battery at C1.
Having the both 10 Ohm csr's in place again.

Yellow is Voltage at the input battery
Blue is csr2 current
purple is csr1 current.


First screenshot is without any capacitor or battery in the c1 position, note the both csr currents are the same
of cource, but notice also the dip in the 12V supply.


second screenshot is when i connect a 2th similar battery in the c1 position.
This 2th battery takes over almost all the supply to the circuit.
No more dip in the 12V supply line.

Itsu
   

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Exactly as it should be O0

CSR2 will have a constant current at this 5% duty, it is the CSR2 which is giving the real current from both sources (battery+C1 in parallel).

The scope can't measure the CSR1 current to the C1 because the battery is 100% of the time across C1, CSR1 sees a current when C1 drops in voltage compared to the battery only.

As I have said T (time) is not taken into consideration when two sources (battery+ cap) do not work the same on discharge and the battery is 100% all the time connected to the cap.

Regards

Mike 8)

PS. The very interesting thing for me is what is happening on the other side of the transistor, the coil and magnet, magnetic compression of a magnetic field, one field to compress and two fields springing back :D
Actually that makes sense even to me. Thanks Mike.
   

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The circuit itself is quite interesting.
Reminds me of a buck converter but on the negative rail.
Played around with it a bit
D1 may not be needed, just an after thought.

Keep on keepen on looks promising
   

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@Jim
   Found the rotor coil .stl on thingiverse but not the rotor. Do not need to edit as I can use any axle size you set. Chance you can upload to there as well?
New printer here next week and spools of #20 and #22 available. Magnets here local to me.
thay
It's in an earlier post - sorry battery about to go. Spent the night hacking together a new hotend. Will put on thingiverse tmrw
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Poynt,

its not surprising to me they are not equal, but its surprising to me the csr2 current is constanly higher.


The current in the bottom leg of C1 is similar as through csr2, see this point in my earlier video:
https://youtu.be/xTDG_xs8FNU?t=280



Concerning the LTspice sim, i just put it together, i was/am not able to have it run, probably some
run parameters are not specified correctly.

Not sure about the FG parameters either (3V square, 86Hz, 5% duty cycle, DC).

Will try lateron today to get it run.

Itsu

Istu,

The sim ran for me, although I did not spend too much time with it.

Mike is close if not bang on with his explanation I think, but I encourage you to experiment with LTSpice to see if you can get the same result. If you can, then it should help in explaining the apparent discrepancy in currents.


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Poynt,

ok, i got it running i guess and it shows similar results (higher csr2 current), see picture below.

I now need to refine some things like visualize the probe points etc.


thanks for now.


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2019-01-11, 15:04:43 by Itsu »
   

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Buy me some coffee
Brad

Look at the top of your CSR1 waveform in relation to CSR2, You can see the wave where the battery is putting power back into the C1, over a longer period of time.



Regards

Mike 8)

OK Mike,as hard as i try, i do not see what you are saying.
The current has to pass through CVR1 to get to the cap--there is no other way around that CVR1.
All current has to pass through CVR2 to get to the circuit.

The total power being delivered to the cap by the source is less than the cap is delivering to the circuit.

Average current means just that--the average over 1 cycle,and where we put many cycles together to get a very accurate average.

The fact that CVR2 see's a very high current spike over a very short period of each cycle means nothing,as the scope averages that current spike out over the whole cycle--thats what average is.

The fact that the average current flowing through CVR2 is higher than that of CVR1 stands.

Quote
You might think that current flows in two directions at the same time :D but we know it does not.

No,we dont know that is dose not.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Thus,for every electron that moves forward in a wire,then something has to be moving backwards.

There are many things that make no sense,like the magnetic field of a permanent magnet--what is it?.
This garbage about virtual photons is just rubbish.
The permanent magnets field is made of the very thing we are missing here--a charge of some sort.
One end emits a positive charge,and the other a negative charge. So,a positive charge repel's a positive charge,a negative charge repel's a negative charge,but a positive charge is attracted to a negative charge,and both are attracted to something that has a neutral charge--E.G iron  O0. When a PM is brought close to the iron,the two charges within the iron start to seperate,and we see most of the negative charges within that iron migrate toward the face of the magnets end that is of a positive charge,thus the iron becomes attracted to the PM.

Here is what we need to find out-->what we need to know--->what is the magnetic field made of?.
Once we know this,we can design solar panel like devices,where instead of a photon knocking an electron through the PN junction,we have the magnetic field knocking !what ever it is we need! through a junction,thus creating power like the solar panel dose.

Anyway,enough rambling from me
Back on subject now.


Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Mike,

i think you are right, but i just cannot see it (yet).

I tried your earlier suggestion by putting a similar battery at C1.
Having the both 10 Ohm csr's in place again.

Yellow is Voltage at the input battery
Blue is csr2 current
purple is csr1 current.


First screenshot is without any capacitor or battery in the c1 position, note the both csr currents are the same
of cource, but notice also the dip in the 12V supply.


second screenshot is when i connect a 2th similar battery in the c1 position.
This 2th battery takes over almost all the supply to the circuit.
No more dip in the 12V supply line.

Itsu

Maybe this will help you to 100% what I see.

Your second shot shows that nearly all the power comes from the second battery, why?, for two reasons, 1.  the chemistry is the same for both sources, 2.   there is a resistance(CSR1) extra for a path of source to the load. Current will take the path of less resistance in this case (both sources being the same). vola.

Thanks Darren, sorry to all that at my age I do not explain things very well ;D today is my birthday 68yrs :'(

Regards

mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 3038


Buy me some coffee


Mike is close if not bang on with his explanation I think,


OK,hang on a minute here.

Quote Mike-- The scope can't measure the CSR1 current to the C1 because the battery is 100% of the time across C1, CSR1 sees a current when C1 drops in voltage compared to the battery only.

Quote Poynt--Mike is close if not bang on with his explanation I think

Quote Poynt--I would say your DMM current measurement is probably the most reliable and accurate at this point. If you display 50 current pulses rather than 9, you might find the scope mean computation of 37mA approaches 50mA. So your Pin is indicating about 625mW.

Ok,so now this is confusing.

Are we trusting both Itsu's and my DMM current reading for P/in,which also agree's with the calculated average current from the scope across CVR1 ?
Or is Mike correct when he states that the scope cannot measure the average current from CVR1 ?

You seem to be agreeing with both here poynt,and each are the exact opposite  ???

So either the DMMs cannot give an accurate average current as you have taught us they can,or Mike is incorrect in saying that the scope cannot get an accurate current average across CVR1.
Now,in all my testing,the scopes calculated average current across CVR1 is exactly the same as the DMMs average value of current--all my video's on this DUT show this.

There is simply no way that P/in cannot,and is not measured across CVR1s current and CH1s voltage.

I limited my power supply's current to 37mA @ 12v,and the voltage never dropped. At 40mA draw from the power supply,the power supplies voltage will drop below 12 volts--this i can show with no problem at all by increasing the duty cycle of the FG.

So my scope says 36mA as the current in across CVR1
My DMM says exactly 36mA as the current value also.
My power supply limited to 37mA(as seen in the video's),also says the current is below 37mA

This tells me--no,in fact this is proof that the P/in is 36mA @ 12 volts,and Mike is incorrect in that the scope cannot measure the current in across CVR1.

If there is a problem,then it is with CVR2.

But here is what you are up against.

The scope shows an average current through CVR2 of near double that of CVR1.
CVR2s temperature runs 5 degree's C hotter than that of CVR1.
With my motor/cap combo's in place of the CVRs,the motor in CVR2s position fire's up long before that of the motor in CVR1s position.
Video here-->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSODFYCqQH8

So,3 confirmation tests for P/in via CVR1s current,and 3 confirmation tests to show CVR2s current value is higher than that of CVR1.

Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Buy me some coffee
D today is my birthday 68yrs :'(

Regards

mike 8)

Happy birthday Mike.
Many happy returns.


Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Happy birthday Mike.
Many happy returns.


Brad

Thanks Brad O0

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Posts: 3038


Buy me some coffee

Mike,

i think you are right, but i just cannot see it (yet).

I tried your earlier suggestion by putting a similar battery at C1.
Having the both 10 Ohm csr's in place again.

Yellow is Voltage at the input battery
Blue is csr2 current
purple is csr1 current.


First screenshot is without any capacitor or battery in the c1 position, note the both csr currents are the same
of cource, but notice also the dip in the 12V supply.


second screenshot is when i connect a 2th similar battery in the c1 position.
This 2th battery takes over almost all the supply to the circuit.
No more dip in the 12V supply line.

Itsu

Nothing out of the ordinary there Itsu,as i have done this test my self.

If you leave it running long enough,the current from the first battery to the second will increase.
you are better off using a power supply in place of your first battery,as your first batteries voltage will drop with your second batteries voltage.


Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Posts: 1945


Buy me a cigar
Penblwydd hapus Mike.  O0

Iechyd da Graham.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Penblwydd hapus Mike.  O0

Iechyd da Graham.

 O0


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Happy Birthday Mike!  O0


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Never let your belligerence get in the way of your brilliance!
   

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Posts: 337
Believing something false does not make it true.
Happy Birthday Mike!  O0  O0

 In five more days I will be 5 years older than you.  I have heard that people born in January have very logical minds and are deep thinkers.

I have a technical mind, but not so sure about the deep thinking part.  C.C

I actually met you at the first energy conference in Idaho.  My son and I spent some time chatting with you after the conference was over for the day.  We both are Ham radio operators and chatted about mixing frequencies to separate water.  Maybe you remember the small group that met with you in the lobby.

Take care,
Carroll


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Poynt,

ok, i got it running i guess and it shows similar results (higher csr2 current), see picture below.

I now need to refine some things like visualize the probe points etc.


thanks for now.


Itsu

Nice work Itsu!  O0

I'm using your new circuit as well. I would run it out to 200ms rather than 100ms.

CTL-Click on the trace lablel to bring up a small window that tells you the AVG and RMS values of the trace. R2 is 8.8mA, and R3 is 9mA AVG values. Interestingly, the AVG current through C1 is only 51uA. The AVG battery current is of course also 8.8mA.  :o

So I'm not so sure we are getting the same result (or not to the same degree anyway) you are with your test setup.


---------------------------
Never let your belligerence get in the way of your brilliance!
   

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Poynt,

great,  i have very similar results.

by the way, i made some changes, see attached .asc file in my post #180, like having the FG return between csr1 and csr2, and change the L1 resistance to 2.6 Ohm


I have csr1 current: 8.8mA, csr2 current: 9.08mA, C1 current: -46uA and Battery current also: 8.8mA, all average @ 200ms interval,
see picture  (added some 0.01 Ohm resistors for current measurents).


The signals look creepy similar as with the real wordl circuit, see screenshot below, only the values (mean) are different.

Blue is csr2 current   (still more then csr1 / battery)
purple is csr1 current
white is C1 current   (when i increase the number of pulses the current drops into uA range)
green is battery current (inverted to match the sim).


Could it be that the sim C1 is more perfect then my real life C1?        (Sim C1 = 0.09 Ohm Esr  and 0 H Esi)


Itsu



« Last Edit: 2019-01-11, 21:01:06 by Itsu »
   

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Buy me some coffee
Whats the chances of carrying out the measurements on a real device,using the equipment we have to do that very job,instead of using a simulator that dose not simulate the results we are seeing on the real world device--is there any chance of that ?

I know people that will hop in there car,drive 2km to the exercises club,only to jump on a tread mill to go for a walk.

So i ask this only once--
Can we leave the car at home,and take a real walk around the block,where the scenery is completely different to that seen on the tread mill to no where.


Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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It's in an earlier post - sorry battery about to go. Spent the night hacking together a new hotend. Will put on thingiverse tmrw

Here you go @Thaelin. My rotor on thingiverse. I have not printed this yet. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3349938
   

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OK,hang on a minute here.

Quote Mike-- The scope can't measure the CSR1 current to the C1 because the battery is 100% of the time across C1, CSR1 sees a current when C1 drops in voltage compared to the battery only.

Quote Poynt--Mike is close if not bang on with his explanation I think

Quote Poynt--I would say your DMM current measurement is probably the most reliable and accurate at this point. If you display 50 current pulses rather than 9, you might find the scope mean computation of 37mA approaches 50mA. So your Pin is indicating about 625mW.

Ok,so now this is confusing.

Are we trusting both Itsu's and my DMM current reading for P/in,which also agree's with the calculated average current from the scope across CVR1 ?
Or is Mike correct when he states that the scope cannot measure the average current from CVR1 ?

You seem to be agreeing with both here poynt,and each are the exact opposite  ???

So either the DMMs cannot give an accurate average current as you have taught us they can,or Mike is incorrect in saying that the scope cannot get an accurate current average across CVR1.
Now,in all my testing,the scopes calculated average current across CVR1 is exactly the same as the DMMs average value of current--all my video's on this DUT show this.

There is simply no way that P/in cannot,and is not measured across CVR1s current and CH1s voltage.

I limited my power supply's current to 37mA @ 12v,and the voltage never dropped. At 40mA draw from the power supply,the power supplies voltage will drop below 12 volts--this i can show with no problem at all by increasing the duty cycle of the FG.

So my scope says 36mA as the current in across CVR1
My DMM says exactly 36mA as the current value also.
My power supply limited to 37mA(as seen in the video's),also says the current is below 37mA

This tells me--no,in fact this is proof that the P/in is 36mA @ 12 volts,and Mike is incorrect in that the scope cannot measure the current in across CVR1.

If there is a problem,then it is with CVR2.

But here is what you are up against.

The scope shows an average current through CVR2 of near double that of CVR1.
CVR2s temperature runs 5 degree's C hotter than that of CVR1.
With my motor/cap combo's in place of the CVRs,the motor in CVR2s position fire's up long before that of the motor in CVR1s position.
Video here-->
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSODFYCqQH8

So,3 confirmation tests for P/in via CVR1s current,and 3 confirmation tests to show CVR2s current value is higher than that of CVR1.

Brad

Hey Brad.  How about just using large, equal value caps in place of cvr1 and cvr2?  Just run for a short amount of time and measure which cap charges faster. ??? Naturally it will fill up and cause a variation in the circuit as it charges, so this is why I suggest large caps so they dont affect the circuit in the short test time?  just put a short across cvr1 cap till c1 is fully charged then remove the short at the beginning of the test. Or short both cvr caps and the test begins when those shorts are removed.  Dunno. Just thinking

Mags
   

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Buy me some coffee
Hey Brad.  How about just using large, equal value caps in place of cvr1 and cvr2?  Just run for a short amount of time and measure which cap charges faster. ??? Naturally it will fill up and cause a variation in the circuit as it charges, so this is why I suggest large caps so they dont affect the circuit in the short test time?  just put a short across cvr1 cap till c1 is fully charged then remove the short at the beginning of the test. Or short both cvr caps and the test begins when those shorts are removed.  Dunno. Just thinking

Mags

Good idea Mags
I will try that


Brad


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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
And another Happy Birthday Mike from over here  O0

Jim, Cura reports your rotor would take 7hrs to print.
Am thinking of using wood, because my printer has a bit of a habit of dropping larger prints in the colder weather. Speaking of which, either I bring the scope and components into the bedroom or i'll have to wait a little again...got the opposite problem to the Aussies here.
The 1/2" x 2" pair of magnets have arrived today though :)


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ʎɐqǝ from pɹɐoqʎǝʞ a ʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
   

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And another Happy Birthday Mike from over here  O0

Jim, Cura reports your rotor would take 7hrs to print.
Am thinking of using wood, because my printer has a bit of a habit of dropping larger prints in the colder weather. Speaking of which, either I bring the scope and components into the bedroom or i'll have to wait a little again...got the opposite problem to the Aussies here.
The 1/2" x 2" pair of magnets have arrived today though :)
Yeah I know. :) Nearly finished repairs on my printer. Testing now.  Alrready printed the smaller version, which took 15 hours as I did it on 0.15mm
   

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Good idea Mags
I will try that


Brad

Thanks for the offer to try.  Was thinking...  It may not be fruitfull...  Ccrv1 will never see a higher voltage than Ccvr2.  That may be a problem. Ccvr1 may punk out once it reaches the voltage difference between source and C1.  But thats just thinking that it will all act similar to using the 1ohm resistors, but its not. But, then something interesting happens... C1 begins depleting to the coil, thus more of a voltage offset for Ccvr1 to charge to higher voltage, but I think C1 would keep going down in voltage as that happens causing a mess with measurements. UGGG.   Well, I try. ^-^

Anyway...  I suppose that using the current value from cvr2 we can...

1 simply calc the power dissipated for the resistor
2  use scope function to get power delivered by the cap
3 use the scope function to get power dissipated in the coil

Once you have all 3, see if the cvr2 + coil add up to the total power were seeing delivered by C1.
Did someone say at some point to just be rid of C1 and cvr1? Maybe. But, it does take away a baseline measurement that should be very trustworthy. Id measure the coil on time zoomed in to just 1 shot. The transistor is only on for such a short time, and a zoom in on 1 pulse should give an accurate power measurement and if we know the time it took for the pulse to happen and figure that with the time interval between on times, you should have a good average watts used between off and next on time. if it all ends the same as what has been tested, then Id say we have to measure the power dissipated by cvr2 and the coil, to see where all that power is going for sure.
Weird stuff

Mags

Mags
   
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