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Author Topic: The Non-Sense Pulse Motor.  (Read 11469 times)

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mudPed's idea of a relay has merit if you can get it to switch fast enough and there is not too much contact bounce.

Trading the transistor for an FET would help as the holding current is zero, only switching current would bleed through, but even this can be remedied by returning the SG directly to the FET "source" bypassing the CSR, provided the SG has an isolated ground. In this way SG drive current no longer flows through the CSR. This can also be tried with the transistor.

The circuit can be tried also with isolated photo-voltaic driver and FET so no extra current flows in CSR2.

Photo-voltaic driver can be tied directly to source and gate.

ION,

thanks, i tried to tie the FG return to the collector, but the sim won't run, i guess the FG return is tied to ground.

So i inserted a PC817 optocoupler between FG plus and Q1 base (1K inbetween) tied via 1K to 12.5V source and that worked.

There is still the base current difference between collector and emitter, but it does not show up through the csr's

Csr2 and Csr1+C1 average currents are now equal.

Itsu
   
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From Itsu:

Quote
thanks, i tried to tie the FG return to the collector, but the sim won't run, i guess the FG return is tied to ground.
[/i]

In the sim, the pulse generator return should go to the emitter, and on the bench the FG ground (at the wall socket) should float unless the FG output does not tie to earth ground. In your case this would probably be dangerous so don't try it, especially with 220 VAC operated equipment.

I'm very used to working with floating equipment and am aware of the possible hazards and work arounds. I only lift grounds when other means are not available, and always with great care (not advised). Back in the day with probing 240 and 480 Volt mains circuits, we would lift the ground on the scope and make sure that no one touched the metal frame of the scope by hanging a big sign on it that said "Hotta Scopini" ...not to be confused with an Italian cousine. ;) An isolation transformer would have been a better way to go, but we didn't have one large enough for the big old tube Tek Scopes such as 500 series.

If the FG were grounded at the wall socket and the scope is also grounded at the wall socket then you must use common grounds for measurement in your circuit or ground loop currents would obfuscate your readings.

A lot of this depends on the equipment used and whether the signals tie back to earth ground at the wall or not. Even when you try to float equipment, there is capacitance coupling and other noise from the internal switching power supply that messes with readings.

That's why it's best to keep all equipment grounded and use other means of isolating signals for measurement.

Hope this helps and does not further confuse.


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ION,

its crystal clear,  thanks.

Tying the sim FG return to emitter helps  :-[ it now also shows no more difference of average current between Csr2 and Csr1+C1.

Doing the same on my real circuit using my battery operated FG seems to also work, but there is a difference between
the current probe value and the same voltage probe value across a csr, so its kind of tricky to measure as it needs compensating.

Anyway, guess we now know where the csr's current difference comes from and how to handle.

Thanks all,   Itsu
   

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ION,

its crystal clear,  thanks.

Tying the sim FG return to emitter helps  :-[ it now also shows no more difference of average current between Csr2 and Csr1+C1.

Doing the same on my real circuit using my battery operated FG seems to also work, but there is a difference between
the current probe value and the same voltage probe value across a csr, so its kind of tricky to measure as it needs compensating.

Anyway, guess we now know where the csr's current difference comes from and how to handle.

Thanks all,   Itsu

Itsu

Why do you keep adding C1s current to CSR1s current?, when it was the current flowing through CSR1 for 95% of the time that filled the cap in the first place.

What you are doing is accounting for CSR1s current twice.

Change everything over to water flowing through pipes,where C1 is a storage vessel,CSR1 AND CSR2 are flow meters that measure LPM. 5 LPM is flowing through meter 1,and for 50 second it fills the storage vessel. Then for 10 seconds,a valve opens and both the water from the storage vessel and that flowing through meter 1 now flows through meter 2.
Are you telling me that more LPM (which represents our current flow)will flow through meter 2 than is flowing through meter 1?--i dont think so.

You would have to take the average of current flowing through CSR1 & C1,and add them together if you wish to do it that way.
The average current flowing through C1 will be a negative value,as there are losses in charging and discharging a cap--as you well know.


Brad


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Hey Brad

It does seem very logical that the fg/transistor can affect the circuit. Back in the days of Rose Ainsley circuit, the fg  did cause misreadings in the circuit. Like I said earlier, if one were to measure all the components after C1 we should be able to target the issue. If we are to think that the magnet/coil are doing something special, then we should remove the magnet and test and like I said a few posts ago, reverse the magnet by reversing the coil polarity to see the differences. The fg and the transistor seems to be an obvious culprit here.

Mags
   
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   I liked Brad's video with the two DC motors:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSODFYCqQH8.

   Are some of you saying that AC from the FG is sufficient to run the "output" DC motor (while the "input" DC motor remains stopped)? 
   That is, how do you explain Brad's observations in this video?
   

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   I liked Brad's video with the two DC motors:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSODFYCqQH8.

   Are some of you saying that AC from the FG is sufficient to run the "output" DC motor (while the "input" DC motor remains stopped)? 
   That is, how do you explain Brad's observations in this video?

I still believe that motor on in the source side of C1 never gets enough voltage across it to get it moving, but the second motor does get higher voltage via the on time of the circuit.

Mags
   

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Hey Brad

It does seem very logical that the fg/transistor can affect the circuit. Back in the days of Rose Ainsley circuit, the fg  did cause misreadings in the circuit. Like I said earlier, if one were to measure all the components after C1 we should be able to target the issue. If we are to think that the magnet/coil are doing something special, then we should remove the magnet and test and like I said a few posts ago, reverse the magnet by reversing the coil polarity to see the differences. The fg and the transistor seems to be an obvious culprit here.

Mags

I did calculate any possible current the FG could add to the circuit--it was in my very first video. So this is something i took into account first up. I also use a diode on the iput to the base,so no reverse current can enter the system via the emmiter/common ground via the FG.

Regarding reversing the coil--
Well that dose make a difference to the flyback output--it is much lower. It also increases the I/in a little-but not much.

The drive coil setup is not for generating extra electrical energy across that coil,but to increase the torque on the rotor,and a higher induced magnetic field through the rotor coils.
But it would seem that (to me anyway) the drive coil dose indeed increase the flyback output.


Brad


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I still believe that motor on in the source side of C1 never gets enough voltage across it to get it moving, but the second motor does get higher voltage via the on time of the circuit.

Mags

And to increase the voltage across a resistance means what ?


Brad


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   I liked Brad's video with the two DC motors:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSODFYCqQH8.

   Are some of you saying that AC from the FG is sufficient to run the "output" DC motor (while the "input" DC motor remains stopped)? 
   That is, how do you explain Brad's observations in this video?

The only way to increase the voltage across a resistance is to increase the current flow.

And no,the FGs average current into the system is about 1.3mA


Brad


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The only way to increase the voltage across a resistance is to increase the current flow.

And no,the FGs average current into the system is about 1.3mA


Brad

V=I*R is something I do remember from my audio engineering days but I thought it was more complicated than that.
   

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V=I*R is something I do remember from my audio engineering days but I thought it was more complicated than that.

Yes
Simple ohms law.

To increase a voltage across a resistance,the current flowing through that resistance must increase.

There is no argument that a higher average current flows through CSR2 than that of CSR1. The problem is--no one has explained why yet.

Adding the current flowing out of C1 to the average current flow through CSR1 is wrong. You have to subtract the current that was flowing into C1 from CSR1s average,as it is the current flowing through CSR1 that charges the cap during the 95% off time of the transistor.

Why few dont seem to understand this ?, well i just dont know.


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I’ll do pics tonight but vid will have to wait. I’m going to source a Neo tube, I’m thinking iron core, insltr, neo tube, insltr, iron pipe
Ok I think I have a measure I can use to show what looks like a flipping of fields through the ferrocell when current is applied. I need to tripod up at night time to get the most accurate pics. You can clearly see a 180 degree change when you look from the right angle. Will post pics later tonight.
   

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Ok I think I have a measure I can use to show what looks like a flipping of fields through the ferrocell when current is applied. I need to tripod up at night time to get the most accurate pics. You can clearly see a 180 degree change when you look from the right angle. Will post pics later tonight.

Sounds good Jim.
This shows the coil doing exactly what we want it to do.

I do have another coil design for solid state opperation if anyone is interested.


Brad


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Sounds good Jim.
This shows the coil doing exactly what we want it to do.

I do have another coil design for solid state opperation if anyone is interested.


Brad
Yes please
   

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Me too.  O0

Mags
   

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Me too.  O0

Mags

I will draw it up tonight and post it here.


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Itsu

Why do you keep adding C1s current to CSR1s current?, when it was the current flowing through CSR1 for 95% of the time that filled the cap in the first place.

What you are doing is accounting for CSR1s current twice.

Change everything over to water flowing through pipes,where C1 is a storage vessel,CSR1 AND CSR2 are flow meters that measure LPM. 5 LPM is flowing through meter 1,and for 50 second it fills the storage vessel. Then for 10 seconds,a valve opens and both the water from the storage vessel and that flowing through meter 1 now flows through meter 2.
Are you telling me that more LPM (which represents our current flow)will flow through meter 2 than is flowing through meter 1?--i dont think so.

You would have to take the average of current flowing through CSR1 & C1,and add them together if you wish to do it that way.
The average current flowing through C1 will be a negative value,as there are losses in charging and discharging a cap--as you well know.


Brad



Brad,

does the fact alone that all currents in the circuit add up perfectly both in the sim and the real circuit
say something to you?

Does the fact that both the sim and the real circuit are giving the exact same signals not tell you that this
circuit seem to follow the well established rules of electronic circuits?


Anyway, please look at my post #209 and picture.
Remember i reversed the C1 current there for more clarity, but it flows the opposite as shown.

And yes, the first time we connect the battery to the circuit / C1 there initially flows current from the
battery through csr1 into C1 to charge it.  This is the initial status.
Then the follow repeats:


# we have Q1 off, C1 is charged, no currents flow.

# When Q1 turns on, we see C1 discharge via csr2, transistor etc. and
  we see current through csr1 from the battery also through csr2, transistor etc. (thus we can add up those currents)

# when Q1 shuts off, current through csr2 stops, but current through csr1 still flows into C1 to recharge it.

# etc.

This is how i see the currents through the csr's run, so yes we need to add up the currents through/to csr1/C1.

There still is a missing part after adding up, but this was explained in posts #218 and #220 by showing that
that missing part is exactly the same as the FG current.

Itsu
   

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Believing something false does not make it true.
Sounds good Jim.
This shows the coil doing exactly what we want it to do.

I do have another coil design for solid state opperation if anyone is interested.


Brad


I also am interested in a coil for solid state operation.  Please post it when you have time.

Thanks,
Carroll


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Brad,



Itsu

Quote
we have Q1 off, C1 is charged, no currents flow.

Yes,current dose flow through CSR1,and then through C1 CSR.

Quote
When Q1 turns on, we see C1 discharge via csr2, transistor etc. and
  we see current through csr1 from the battery also through csr2, transistor etc. (thus we can add up those currents)

You can only add up the current from CSR1 and CSR-C2 that are within the 5% on time of the transistor.
You cannot add the average of CSR1 to the output current average of CSR-c1 to arrive at the average current flow in from the source.

Quote
Does the fact that both the sim and the real circuit are giving the exact same signals not tell you that this
circuit seem to follow the well established rules of electronic circuits?

There is nothing wrong with the wave form's--they are as they should be.
Nor is there anything wrong with the well (theoretical) established rules of electronics.
The problem here is human error--nothing more.

Quote
There still is a missing part after adding up, but this was explained in posts #218 and #220 by showing that that missing part is exactly the same as the FG current.

Not on my bench.
Please see scope shot below,where i have taken a differential voltage measurement across the 100 ohm base resistor.
You can clearly see that the V/drop across that resistor is !at best! 500mV.
500mV across 100 ohms give us 5mA of current. And that 5mA is only for 5% of a full cycle.
What would be the average current flowing into the system from the FG ?
Peak current through CSR2 during the one time in my tests(as i have shown many times now),is 1.1 amps.
So if you wish to subtract that 5mA from that value,then we have 1.095 amps.

Quote
when Q1 shuts off, current through csr2 stops, but current through csr1 still flows into C1 to recharge it.

That is correct,and is the very reason you cannot add the average current through CSR1 to the current being delivered by the cap during the on time to calculate your current in,as during the off time,the current through CSR 1 is being stored in the cap.

You are accounting for some of the current flowing through CSR1 twice--and you cant do that.

Please see scope shot below,where i have marked out the portion of current through CSR1 you can add to the output current of C1,and the portion of CSR1 current you cannot add to the output current of CSR-C1.
You can add the % of current between the red lines to the output current of CSR-C1
You cannot add the portion of current between the green lines to the output current of CSR-C1,as that portion is going into C1,and not through the coil.

Hope that is clear enough.
If not,then use the water flow through pipes ,with the added vessel(C1),and see if you can make more water flow out of meter 2 than is flowing in through meter 1.

Quote
does the fact alone that all currents in the circuit add up perfectly both in the sim and the real circuit
say something to you?

Yes
It means that people will find what ever they need,so as to conform to the theories of today.


Brad



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Ok, Brad,

you stick with your explanation and i will stick with mine.

I have shown in both the sim and the real circuit how i think the currents flow and that they all are accounted for,
so i am happy with that.

Lets continue the build.

Itsu
   

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Ok, Brad,

you stick with your explanation and i will stick with mine.

I have shown in both the sim and the real circuit how i think the currents flow and that they all are accounted for,
so i am happy with that.

Lets continue the build.

Itsu

Itsu

What is the point in not clarifying this?

Please explain as to how you can add the average current flow through CSR1 to the current flow out of C1 to get the average current flow through CSR2 ?

P/in is V x I,regardless of what the circuit is--always has been,always will be-->this is the known accepted electrical laws you were quoting a couple of posts back.

Now your saying that P/in is no longer V x I,and that P/in is taken from components within the circuit.

I urge you to rethink this.
I also do not know why Poynt has not said something about this,as it was he that has said,and tested,that DMMs do a very good job at averaging out voltage and current-->has that now flown out the window?.

I am now going to draw that water flow through pipes circuit,and lets you take a look at it.


Brad


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Itsu

Here is our circuit using water flow through pipe's.

If you can tell me how more water !on average! will flow through flow meter 2 than that of flow meter 1,i would love to hear how this is possible.


Brad


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I also am interested in a coil for solid state operation.  Please post it when you have time.

Thanks,
Carroll

Ok guys,here it is.

This is my design,and has not been tested yet--still to wind L1

Dimensions are up to you.
My magnet is a neo N52  65mm long x 19mm diameter
L1 is also this long,and will be 500 turns of .77mm wire
L2 and L3 are 20mm wide each,for a total coil length of 115mm,as each end coil former is 5mm thick.
L2 and L3 are also 500 turns,using .4mm wire.

Make sure that the pvc sleeve and steel pipe continue past the magnet as far as your L2 and L3 coils do--> so L2 and L3 are not atop the magnet.

Operation.

L1 is pulsed with a DC current that creates a magnetic field opposite to that of the PMs field--both current value and duty cycle determined through testing.
L2 and L3 are induced by L1.
Flyback is caught and used from all three coils.
The flyback will be large due to the complete reversal of the magnetic field through all 3 coils.


Brad


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Itsu

What is the point in not clarifying this?

Please explain as to how you can add the average current flow through CSR1 to the current flow out of C1 to get the average current flow through CSR2 ?

P/in is V x I,regardless of what the circuit is--always has been,always will be-->this is the known accepted electrical laws you were quoting a couple of posts back.

Now your saying that P/in is no longer V x I,and that P/in is taken from components within the circuit.

I urge you to rethink this.
I also do not know why Poynt has not said something about this,as it was he that has said,and tested,that DMMs do a very good job at averaging out voltage and current-->has that now flown out the window?.

I am now going to draw that water flow through pipes circuit,and lets you take a look at it.


Brad


Brad,

I have already explained how i think the average currents are flowing, see my earlier posts.

We are looking at the current flows here, not sure why "P/in is V x I" is pulled into it as i said nothing about that.

My DMM shows indeed the same average current as i see through csr1, so nothing goes out of the window.



Concerning your water flow circuit,

With the valve closed, the water flows through csr1 untill C1 is full, this is the start position.

start:
# When the valve is opened, water starts to flow through csr1 and water starts to flow from C1, both passing
  through csr2 (so we can add up the flows from C1 and csr1).
# When the valve closes, flow through csr2 stops, but the flow through csr1 still continuous to fill up C1,
  then the flow stops (start position).

The water flown through csr2 when the valve was open is the same as the water that was stored in C1 together
with the flow through csr1.

Itsu
   
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