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Author Topic: Transatlantic Telluric Communication Experiment  (Read 8235 times)

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tExB=qr
Video: 3 Things "Faster Than Light"
1. The expansion of the universe, and the speed of galaxies inside it.
2. Quantum entanglement.
3. The fastest possible cut through a piece of paper.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj0o7SIsZf6AhWklIkEHZsBCgEQFnoECB8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fwgbh%2Fnova%2Farticle%2Fvideo-3-things-faster-than-light%2F&usg=AOvVaw0knV6wfYjiiUDNJq3LeitJ

Edit:
Did I actually measure a superluminous signal thus disproving the relativity theory?
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Did-I-actually-measure-a-superluminous-signal-thus-disproving-the-relativity-theory

Update: The measurement presented above (even though preliminary), together with the 18 references around detection of superluminal signals in my paper as well as the recent work of Steffen Kühn leave little doubt that the actual propagation speed of the electric field is superluminal rather than that it propagates at c:

Edit 2:
Experimental Clarification of Coulomb-Field Propagation
http://www.pandualism.com/c/coulomb_experiment.html

A simple experiment has been performed in order to measure propagation speed of the electric field. The results show that the Coulomb interaction propagates substantially faster than at speed of light c.

The measured propagation speeds v = Δx/Δt from the left to the right detector sphere, with Δt averaged over each five measurements, range from around 1.4 c to 5 c, and show a dependence on the distance from the spark gap.
« Last Edit: 2022-09-15, 21:07:50 by Grumpy »
   

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The measured propagation speeds v = Δx/Δt from the left to the right detector sphere, with Δt averaged over each five measurements, range from around 1.4 c to 5 c, and show a dependence on the distance from the spark gap.

Surprisingly close to the 1.57c measured by Tesla+Dollard. ;D

I don't know where you find all this material Grumpy, but thanks very much for sharing :P

What I find interesting about Quantum Mechanics is how the extraluminal properties are extremely well characterized, and yet almost completely unexplained.  Entanglement and Bell Inequalities don't provide any actual insights or mechanic as to what might happening on the field/particle/subatomic level that is actually causing the superluminal/extraluminal action, it only offers the mathematical solutions to describe it.


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Surprisingly close to the 1.57c measured by Tesla+Dollard. ;D

I don't know where you find all this material Grumpy, but thanks very much for sharing :P

What I find interesting about Quantum Mechanics is how the extraluminal properties are extremely well characterized, and yet almost completely unexplained.  Entanglement and Bell Inequalities don't provide any actual insights or mechanic as to what might happening on the field/particle/subatomic level that is actually causing the superluminal/extraluminal action, it only offers the mathematical solutions to describe it.

I have always had an uncanny ability to attract information to myself, i.e find information pertaining to the questions at hand.

At times I know the answer, but can't prove it.  That's some of the rules in this existence. Laws of confusion and free will.  I digress into metaphysics...

Apparently, anything Coulomb has not proven to be popular.  LOL!

I have posted many experiments, and calculations that indicate Coulomb "waves" are longitudinal and faster than C.  I'll be sure the bring this information back to the surface when I'm pulling kilowatts out of "space".

Assume we are all right: what are the implications?  That is a question for F6.  I know he'll have a valid answer.
   
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Quote
I have always had an uncanny ability to attract information to myself, i.e find information pertaining to the questions at hand.
At times I know the answer, but can't prove it.  That's some of the rules in this existence. Laws of confusion and free will.  I digress into metaphysics...
Apparently, anything Coulomb has not proven to be popular.  LOL!

Indeed and your not alone...

I thought I owned the internet at one point because finding impossibly obscure information came easily. However it wasn't me but the keywords/phrases I learned to use which caused the search algorithms to give me better results. So in essence you are correct, the more precise the definition of what were looking for the better the odds we will find it.

In fact, I was just thinking the same thing you were today. Where in the hell is Grumpy finding all these links?, because of course I am now compelled to read them all. So in some sense our version of science may be dependent on how many perspectives/opinions of science were exposed to. Many seem to think, I like what this scientist has to say but not another thus I will call this science real but not the other. Which obviously isn't objective science but just the opposite and very much subjective and opinionated. So "science" is never just science as many would have us believe because people and opinions are always involved.

Regards
AC



 


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
Most things are measured but not before they are thought of.
One can not measure what they haven't created or seen.Creativity is never stifled by the lack of measurement.But measurement is stifled by the lack of creativity.
This is why bicycle mechanics flew before the experts did.


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Most things are measured but not before they are thought of.
One can not measure what they haven't created or seen.Creativity is never stifled by the lack of measurement.But measurement is stifled by the lack of creativity.
This is why bicycle mechanics flew before the experts did.

True, but creativity is only the ability to create. That's why mechanics didn't fly until they created what their creativity made them imagine.

Creativity is only revealed by the creations it brings about, and it is only creation that is decisive and useful to us. As far as FE is concerned, we cannot speak of creation since we do not have any, and therefore we cannot speak of creativity either since without creation, it is not proven.


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I have posted many experiments, and calculations that indicate Coulomb "waves" are longitudinal and faster than C.
...

None of them are conclusive, for the reasons already given.

Quote
Video: 3 Things "Faster Than Light"
1. The expansion of the universe, and the speed of galaxies inside it.
2. Quantum entanglement.

The speed we are talking about is the limit speed c, basis of relativity. It is a locally measured speed, speed limit of matter/energy or information.

Explain to us how apparent velocities > c due to the expansion of the universe could lead to the transmission of matter/energy or information at this speed.

Explain us how quantum entanglement could lead to the transmission of information at a speed > c, when it is precisely proved that it is impossible in the framework of quantum mechanics to which you refer.

Speeds higher than c in science are not impossible. The phase velocity > c of a wave is even commonplace.

Obviously you don't master the subjects at all and mix everything up, you don't understand at all what speed is meant with c.


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Update 10/6/22:

I've been on the road lately so have had very little opportunity for projects.  However I was lucky enough to get the opportunity to do a couple preliminary tests with an Extra coil and VNA to characterize a marine vessel as a potential low-impedance ground plane to perform future Tesla telluric-related experiments.

The 'borehole project' I dug recently resulted in a 30ft pipe over 10ft beneath the water table.  The pipe has an amazing DC resistance of only 2 ohms to electrical ground, but at 160m RF currents presents an impedance of over 40.  Almost as bad as a single copper rod driven 8ft into soil :o.   This suggested that surface-area is a larger factor than resistance in this field.
Lowest drive impedance with this type of earth ground was around 30 ohms with the Extra coils I wound (160m band predominantly).  Note that measured results will always be a conjugate of other factors as well, like stray impedance and the Extra coil's drive impedance.

Eric Dollard's shop had an intense ground (multiple 10,000 gallon buried tanks) which resulted in a lowest measured drive impedance of 12-15 ohms with the coils I had brought+tested.  This was optimized, with extremely short leads, coils directly over the ground tanks, resulting in minimal stray inductance.



The tests recently performed recently on a marine vessel was between the coil and hull ground to saltwater.  Instead of a driven pipe with a few square feet of surface area, this setup provided over 20,000 square feet of surface area to ground. :o 8)  The fact that the hull is painted doesn't matter as much as you'd think, since we're operating with AC impedance rather than DC resistance.  As well as the fact that the signal must travel through many feet of high-resistance steel.

Preliminary analysis:

* With a simple 160m coil I was able to gather some VNA (vector network analyzer) data, and with no optimizations the coil presents a net drive impedance of only 10 ohms slightly under the 160m band (with the best conditions I could manage from minimal equipment).

* There does seem to be a direct correlation between operating frequency and impedance presented.  Impedance at 1890kc was 20-30 ohms while 1400kc goes down to 10-15.  One can imagine what kind of impedance Tesla faced with coil tuned to a mere 60-100kc. ^-^

* As expected, stray impedance plays a huge factor here.  A single 12in alligator clip lead presented as a 3-5 ohms impedance in the ship test.

I'm still compiling data, should have more time this weekend to write everything up more formally.  But the initial hypothesis seems accurate, that one of the absolute best places to perform these kinds of telluric experiments is on a ship. ;D O0


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But since 'Spooky action at a distance' is proven and has been seen then anywhere close to c or above is usable.
This is not radio.

I've already replied to this, but now I come across an informative article that is normally accessible even if you haven't gone to university which explains why "No, We Still Can't Use Quantum Entanglement To Communicate Faster Than Light".

Note that it doesn't talk about the impossibility of exceeding c, but about the impossibility of doing so by quantum mechanics.



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I've already replied to this, but now I come across an informative article that is normally accessible even if you haven't gone to university which explains why "No, We Still Can't Use Quantum Entanglement To Communicate Faster Than Light".

Note that it doesn't talk about the impossibility of exceeding c, but about the impossibility of doing so by quantum mechanics.

If it was concluded there were no nonlocal elements involved in entanglement, that the principle resulting in observation of entanglement would be akin to RF polarization.  Then ya, the superluminal or extraluminal communication via the entanglement route would likely not be feasible.


The nice thing is for the telluric experiments, I am staging to perform the measurements directly using a pair of GPS-diciplined oscillators.  Preliminary testing between a pair of them suggests the GPS network is synchronized to within 60ns (or within 20ns for long-term tests over 30min).

So when I get to 2+ mile telluric transmission tests, the effective telluric and aerial propagation velocities could be conclusively measured to several significant digits.

Using GPS-diciplined oscillators would also make a nice follow-up replication of the Veritasium 'speed of light' tests in the other thread.


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If it was concluded there were no nonlocal elements involved in entanglement, that the principle resulting in observation of entanglement would be akin to RF polarization.  Then ya, the superluminal or extraluminal communication via the entanglement route would likely not be feasible.

The reason can be stated more simply than in the article.

If we could fix the state of particle A which is 0 AND 1 at a certain value, e.g. 0, then the state of particle B which is its complementary would be fixed at 1, and we would communicate instantly.

But we can't fix the state of particle A, we can only read it and the reading is random. If we read it at 0, it fixes A at 0 and B at 1, but the state of particle A does not depend on our data, so neither does B, hence the no-communication theorem.

The universal law of physics is Murphy's Law. :(



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The nice thing is for the telluric experiments, I am staging to perform the measurements directly using a pair of GPS-diciplined oscillators.  Preliminary testing between a pair of them suggests the GPS network is synchronized to within 60ns (or within 20ns for long-term tests over 30min).

So when I get to 2+ mile telluric transmission tests, the effective telluric and aerial propagation velocities could be conclusively measured to several significant digits.

Using GPS-diciplined oscillators would also make a nice follow-up replication of the Veritasium 'speed of light' tests in the other thread.

The principle seems correct.  60 ns is 18 m at the speed of light.
You will need at least 18 m of difference in distance between the two modes of propagation.


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Who knew that 2 months stuck on-the-road for work followed by holiday projects and other tangents could put such a dent in this topic?! C.C  :P

Anyway, we have finally been able to coordinate a good propagation test this weekend using a combination of overland and underground setups.
Upcoming test is universally on 160m band, specifically 1.86mc.


Adrian Marsh  (UK)
  Copper irrigation piping ground, can be irrigated with water to significantly lower impedance
  2-coil and 3-coil extremely well balanced tuning
  1.5kw+ transmit capability

Griffin Brock  (Pasadena, CA)
  2ea 52gal buried steel drum barrels (optionally filled with water)
  2-coil and 3-coil setup
  400w transmit capability

Hakasays Telluric site    (Southern California, ~120mi from Griffin)
  Sheet aluminum in saltwater ocean ground
  Single coil extra (optional impedance matching transformer)
  60w transmit capability

Hakasays Transverse site  (Southern California, ~120mi from Griffin and ~5mi from telluric site)
  Vertical 10-80m antenna to 24/7 SDR
  Simple copper rod ground
  Unattended (used to gauge transverse signal)




Adrian's is the most advanced and precise preise structurally, as he has decades experience with such apparatus.  But it's a hail-mary shot as the ground currents required for intercontinental comms may be in the hundreds-of-amperes (note the use of amperes here and not watts!).

Griffin has a middle-ground setup, but more transmit capability than the impromptu test we performed last year.

Mine is the simplest due to logistics issues, but is of a configuration that Eric Dollard stumbled on in the 70-80's.  The vertical SDR should also serve as a nice baseline to compare overland and underground propagation.
If we get a strong signal with one and no signal with the other, that would be strong evidence to a different propagation mode taking place.

Depending on time+conditions, we may also be able to take advantage of online SDR's scattered across the planet to help gauge overland transverse propagation.  Ideally we would all have AM radio station quality ground with <1 ohm system impedance throughout, but, such is life. ;D


I am happy to answer any technical questions, and can forward any Q's to Griffin/Adrian if anyone has questions about the details of their setups. :)


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For telluric sites, will the devices be buried, or at least operated from basements?
I have already warned about the radio radiation artefact. Also testing with a radio antenna for comparison is a good idea, but not sufficient, because if the supposed "telluric" signal is only received less strongly, what can be concluded?
A good idea is also to place RF filters on the mains connection, as the mains network easily tends to act as a radio antenna.

Are the other guys radio operators?


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For telluric sites, will the devices be buried, or at least operated from basements?

We've not had any success with indoor testing that I'm aware (possibly Steve Hill)

In a conventional radio, a ground plane is usually required to act as a counterpoise, to balance the overhead radiator.  It makes sense that a ground-based radio may still need an aerial dielectric plane to act as a counterpoise to the telluric radiator.  Laws of reciprocity.

A good idea is also to place RF filters on the mains connection, as the mains network easily tends to act as a radio antenna.

Good call, but in practice HF amplifiers tend to be quite isolated by-design; the only times you tend to see feedback into mains is when the ground is poor or nonexistent.  Usually you can tell there's feedback because any electronics on the same circuit will go flaky and spontaneously enable/disable or suddenly fail/fry.  Or you'll start getting small RF shocks by touching parts of the transmitter. ???

I'm on battery power for this upcoming test, I'm pretty sure Adrian is on filtered/isolated AC, and I will make sure Griffin is filtered/isolated as well. ;)

We're all licensed HAM's with plenty of experience with RF+propagation, and we're all working in legal bounds in this test. ;)


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Good call, but in practice HF amplifiers tend to be quite isolated by-design; the only times you tend to see feedback into mains is when the ground is poor or nonexistent.
...

I am not talking about leakage through the internal circuitry of the amplifier, but through the ground currents.
HF amplifiers never (or rarely) have a balanced output but coaxial.
If one connects a simple wire with a tuning box, the antenna is in fact made up of the wire on one side, and the ground of the amp box on the other side, so the ground socket of the mains plug serves as a HF ground socket, the HF current passes through it (as much as through the wire), and therefore passes by coupling into the other wires of the mains which can then radiate like an antenna, making the electrical counterweight of the wire.

Even if the antenna is not a simple wire but a well matched balanced antenna, like a dipole, the problem is reduced but still exists due to the ground currents. Only an RF toroidal transformer, whose secondary is connected to the radiating device without ground connection, can prevent this by transforming the unbalanced output into a balanced output.




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I am not talking about leakage through the internal circuitry of the amplifier, but through the ground currents.
HF amplifiers never (or rarely) have a balanced output but coaxial.
If one connects a simple wire with a tuning box, the antenna is in fact made up of the wire on one side, and the ground of the amp box on the other side, so the ground socket of the mains plug serves as a HF ground socket, the HF current passes through it (as much as through the wire), and therefore passes by coupling into the other wires of the mains which can then radiate like an antenna, making the electrical counterweight of the wire.

Even if the antenna is not a simple wire but a well matched balanced antenna, like a dipole, the problem is reduced but still exists due to the ground currents. Only an RF toroidal transformer, whose secondary is connected to the radiating device without ground connection, can prevent this by transforming the unbalanced output into a balanced output.

I understand.  In this case everyone is using some degree of isolation to limit ground current feedback (if only because it helps protect the transmitters and local line current :P).

Mine will be Impedance-matched direct drive and also running fully on battery (H1), Adrian is expected to be running in Magnifying transmitter mode (H3), and I'm not 100% sure about Griffin but I suspect he'll be running 3-coil as well (but probably not as well balanced).

Leads are always very short because stray inductance is to be absolutely minimized in these types of tests.   It's amazing how much stray inductance even a 15ft 8awg round wire can introduce! :o

The nice thing about the 160m band is that reception is highly dependent on sky and F-layer conditions.  So if a successful contact is made and then lost several hours later, that would suggest the dominant mode was aerial transverse, and not ground longitudinal.


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Well, a weekend 160m DX contest and bad weather nearly cancelled the event.  Conditions were pretty much at a minimum throughout.  Poor solar activity as well throughout the weekend.

Hakasays station - Took a few VNA readings.  Zero results with overland or telluric, as QRM from an AM Mexican radio station transmitting on 1.7mc (we were 1.86).  Was getting spatter and interference all across the band and lots of what sounds like man-made interference.   Mobile setup so limited to receive-only as this particular topload tends to arc-out at a low magnitude.

Griffin station - Also poor weather, transmitter was limited to ~80w and ground impedance is so-so.

Adrian station - Tuned to 1kw but intercontinental contact from UK was always pretty unlikely.

Gavin station - Receive-only Transverse (good site+station)  No reception from NE USA over this setup.


 * Lower frequencies.
         This will likely require stacks of pancake coils to hit the ultrasonic band Tesla was operating in (50-100kc)
         Down in this range the dielectric loss tangents for most materials becomes almost negligible.

 * Longer range single-wire longitudinal experiments.
         This is to help improve tuning and understanding of such setups.   It may also serve as a good badeline to characterize loss tangents over a wide spectra.

 * Short single-wire testing with 'telluric analogues'.
         Similar to Adrian's single-wire tests, but instead using something like small section of water or soil.  This can also prove useful in reverse-engineering an electrical characteristics for tellurics, as having even a poor schematic could significantly improve our understanding and focus.



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