Akula, Ruslan, Stalker, device discussion and replications.

[Maxolous]

Max,

so looking at both screenshots:











I see 1st screenshot the (yellow) kacher ringing down completely, but it seems the kacher signal is not there all the time it seems to skip 1 or 2 pulses compared to the blue square wave, making it look like a violent type of signal.

Hi Itsu.

Your observations are right. The first signals were taken while the probes,(blue) on push pull ic output, put while the second probe(yellow) hung around the antenna of kacher. At this time the signal from kacher was grossly absorbed, so I have to zoom in to bring out the scope shot. Hence, the low amplitudes.

But you trigger on the blue
signal using a video type triggering and the blue and yellow signals are very low amplitude (500mV/div. only).
Also, the blue signal frequency is 46kHz but as said with very low (too low?) amplitude.
The kacher signal seems to be synced to the start of the blue rising pulse.

The signal of the kacher started at the start blue rising edge because that was where sync took strong effect. Moreso, at this stage I have not built in my delay circuit to delay pp signal. Remember, when Tesla is late pp must be delayed. That was what you saw in the following shot when the signal was at the crest. The freq of 46khz you saw was as a result of kacher effect, you already know that it may double or triple.

In the 2nd screenshot i see the yellow kacher signal more as unidirectional pulses at 5V/div and also the blue square wave is now 5V/div, but at a lower frequency of 25kHz.

The unidirectional signal you saw was taken from gate of mosfet unlike the first screen shot which depicts signal taken from above kacher antenna and it was oscillating at it resonance freq.

You now trigger on the blue signal rising edge, with the yellow kacher signal synced to almost half of the blue signal pulse.

At this time  I had Incorporated delay cct. So, sync became effectively strong there

So what i am trying to say is that both screenshots show very different circumstances and settings and without any information on where these signals are taken from (diagram), it is very difficult to diagnose any problems.

They were different time actually.
I was only trying to show you how I should have it if not that it was tripping off. I couldn't go full throttle.

This and the almost impossibility to hear anything you are saying

I know . It's my phone's problem. Maybe I'll need a mic

Could you more specifically tell what you mean with "device will trip off", what will trip? Do you have an automatic fuse tripping?

Itsu

I will figure it out soon.
Maybe I need to put a diode in my ps.

Maxolous

[Maxolous]

   Another point that I want to mention, is that the Kacher signal pulse may need to be ideally placed at the Off time of the push pull signal pulse, instead of on the ON time. As there is less resistance at the OFF times.  But, of this I'm not certain, as I have not tried it. But, I think that itsu did try that and did not get much better result, or output while testing. However, I still think that it's worth a try.

   Below is an image from Stalker's video, although it may not be his scope shot. The idea is what counts. And will also need testing. Remember that if there is no ground line, nor resonance, then don't expect that magically the placement of the Kacher signal will make any difference.
   The earth ground line, at about the same size as the grenade output coil, or 1/2 size made of welding cable, and Kacher to induction circuit resonances,  are prerequisites, to seeing any effects, at all. Sometimes I can go for days without the slightest effect of what I call the Radio Moscow, sound, nor any other signs of resonance, or improvements. That hissing sound does indicate some form of resonance. In my opinion. Along with the ability to light several 100w bulbs brightly. Not just barely...

   NickZ

Hi Nickz,

You are completely wrong there. You have to know what you're doing if you must make headway building this contraption. It doesn't give room for mediocrity.
You must be meticulous about it. Otherwise, you could do 99% and still not have effect. You see, right shoe for right foot and left shoe for left foot that's how it works. I made a video about that.

https://youtu.be/Bi7Wqpo9ihw

You must choose where to put it according to your push-pull side.
Your two signals from your pp are displaced by 180° . You cannot choose one as been fed to your controlled tests and put it on the other.

I found out that there are so much deception in the net. Most cct were perverted.

Maxolous.

[Itsu]

Max,

thanks for your explanations, although i still have some questions like when you say:

"The first signals were taken while the probes,(blue) on push pull ic output" does it mean that the push pull ic output only outputs a 1V amplitude?

or when you say:

"The freq of 46khz you saw was as a result of kacher effect, you already know that it may double or triple" does that mean that the kacher is causing the push pull IC to almost double its frequency? I never saw that happening with me.

By the way, again looking at the scope, the 1st blue signal period spans 6.6 divisions of 5us meaning 33us or a frequency of 30kHz, so not the shown 46kHz (15us positive, 18us zero, so a duty cycle of 45.45%).
The 2nd blue positive signal spans 3.4 divisions of 5us or 17us, so if with again 45.45% duty cycle, this means a frequency of 27kHz, so no tripling or doubling and the shown 46 and 25kHz can not be right.

But i understand you are still looking for the reason your device is tripping off and as you are the only one knowing how your device is build up, i wish you success with that.

Edited some wrong timing calculations

Itsu

[NickZ]

   Max:
   What I mentioned above are NOT my ideas, and therefore I am not "wrong".
As mentioned, I am just repeating what Stalker has suggested, in his video. Not trying to force MY ideas on you.
   If you think that Stalker is wrong or lying even, then so be it. But, it's not me that said that, but him.
   So, therefore when you say that my comment is "wrong", well, it may be, and is why I'm putting it out there to be tested. Itsu may have given it a shot, but, as mentioned unless you have your tuned earth ground line and Kacher/induction circuit resonance in place, you are not really testing what happens to these circuits.
    Also, we can't tell what you are saying, on your videos, at all. Sorry.

   When you say in your post that someone is "completely wrong", (me),  you should be completely ready to explain why you think so, and have some proof of that.
Otherwise, we get no where, and I do feel that Stalker is not trying to fool us. Nor is he trying to make a profit on any of this, as Ruslan, and others are.

   NIckZ

[Maxolous]

Max,

thanks for your explanations, although i still have some questions like when you say:

"The first signals were taken while the probes,(blue) on push pull ic output" does it mean that the push pull ic output only outputs a 1V amplitude?

I haven't measured it anyhow, signal voltages from pp ic output are usually small maybe 2v or 3v

or when you say:

"The freq of 46khz you saw was as a result of kacher effect, you already know that it may double or triple" does that mean that the kacher is causing the push pull IC to almost double its frequency? I never saw that happening with me.

Due to the shaky effect of kacher on pp, yes. Apparently, scope sees more signals than when  pp is steady.

By the way, again looking at the scope, the 1st blue signal period spans 6.6us meaning a frequency of 151kHz, so not the shown 46kHz (3us positive, 3.6us zero, so a duty cycle of 45.45%).
The 2nd blue positive signal spans 3.4us, so if with again 45.45% duty cycle, this means a frequency of 135kHz, so no tripling or doubling and the shown 46 and 25kHz can not be right.

The second build signal resonates at 25khz I might not remember the freq. of the first build of head

But i understand you are still looking for the reason your device is tripping off and as you are the only one knowing how your device is build up, i wish you success with that.


Itsu

Yeah!
It should not be much problem. The first build didn't have such problem.
I will find solution to it soon.

[Maxolous]

   Max:
   What I mentioned above are NOT my ideas, and therefore I am not "wrong".
As mentioned, I am just repeating what Stalker has suggested, in his video. Not trying to force MY ideas on you.
   If you think that Stalker is wrong or lying even, then so be it. But, it's not me that said that, but him.
   So, therefore when you say that my comment is "wrong", well, it may be, and is why I'm putting it out there to be tested. Itsu may have given it a shot, but, as mentioned unless you have your tuned earth ground line and Kacher/induction circuit resonance in place, you are not really testing what happens to these circuits.
    Also, we can't tell what you are saying, on your videos, at all. Sorry.

   When you say in your post that someone is "completely wrong", (me),  you should be completely ready to explain why you think so, and have some proof of that.
Otherwise, we get no where, and I do feel that Stalker is not trying to fool us. Nor is he trying to make a profit on any of this, as Ruslan, and others are.

   NIckZ

Nickz,

For my video, I think you will hear me better if you put on your earpiece. Sorry for that.

Stalker specifically pointed out that  pulses are put at the start of a rising edge. That was demonstrated in one of his videos when he spoke about delay cct for pp. However, I found out that, a longer delay could shift the sync position farther to the crest.

Now, if you took one output of pp signal and fed it to the controlled Tesla and put your scope probe on the other one, it would appear that the off period is where your kacher signal is. I hope you get

Maxolous

[Itsu]

If i remember correctly, the kacher needs to be fired on a specific moment compared to the Inductor sine wave like shown in this screenshot Nick provided a few posts ago:

Where that specific point is in relation to the Push Pull signal (creating the Inductor sine wave) i am not sure yet.


By the way, my Push Pull  (TL494) runs on 12V, so its output signals are 12V going to a TC4093 (for delay) also running on 12V so with also 12V output signals feeding the MOSFET drivers.


Itsu

[NickZ]

   AG:
   As I had mentioned, although the previous scope shot that I posted may not have been from Stalker. However he did post it on his video as an example of what to look for.
Sergey's directions post below was from Stalker. Might be interesting.
It was sent to me by one of our members here. As he knows that I have some faith in what Stalker says. Possibly some of the ideas may not be translated quite right, though.
   One of my doubts is his grenade frequency, of 15.6MHz,  and that it needs to output HF, or it won't work. Is 15KHz to 20KHz considered high frequency?
What do you think about this Itsu? As the rest of the system needs to be tuned to the grenade. And you are about to make further tests of your grenade.

  AG:
    I think that the scope shot I posted is NOT ambiguous, and no one else has shown anything like that, as yet.
   Remember I am on the track of what is truth, and what is BS, not just some untested opinions. If what I mention is really wrong, as Max thinks, (and he then makes a big point of it), of just how "completely wrong" I am. I'll be the first one to change my opinion. I'm not trying to make a point of anything. Trying to build something that WORKS...


   

     


« Sent to: NickZ on: May 26, 2023,

A fragment from conversation with Sergey Stalker
A gradient coil is a high-frequency resonator that operates simultaneously at several frequencies that are multiples of a half wave. It is also a capacitor plate in relation to the antenna.
I have a 15.6 megahertz gradient coil frequency, antenna is at the same frequency.
Tesla tuned to antenna at a multiplicity of 1.5 megahertz with a little offset. Antenna - a top capacitance for Tesla coil.
The antenna wire coiled into a spiral emits at 15.6 megahertz.
Shnyaga is optional, this is a mirror for the antenna wave. Often a connection of wires of different diameters is sufficient.
This is only important when using a kacher to modulate high frequency. If the circuit is a controlled Tesla coil, then the effect of the magnetic field (from gradient coil) is not required.
Everything starts with a gradient coil and is built to match it. Antenna to match the gradient coil,
Tesla coil to match the antenna. Push pool to match the gradient coil.
If the gradient coil does not work - there is no HF spectrum, then nothing will come of it, just rewind.
Grounding through a diode to the cold end of the grenade (cathode to the ground).
Tesla coil also grounded (directly).
The diode does not need to affect the operation of the coil, it affects the operation of the capacitor formed by the coils.
In relation to the gradient coil, the diode is located in the current node.
The collision of magnetic fields creates a diverging wave from the center of the conductor to the edges, and the process of interference begins with the formation of the RF spectrum. The frequency at which collisions occur is neither dependent on the load nor on whether the ends are closed or open. This is not LC resonance, so it is convenient to tune everything to match it.
I called it magnetic resonance for myself.

Q: And if so, which magnetic fields are colliding? Gradient coil's inductor and the grenadeitself?

In the grenade itself, from two counter wound bifilar coils.
Q: or "halves" of a grenade?
You can also call them halves.
First, gradient coil is made, its magnetic resonance determined, then we look at whether it generates
a HF spectrum when shorted, if so, then it's cool, if not - throwing the turns over the layers and see
what comes out, rework until it produce some HF.
According to the HF spectrum of the gradient coil, we determine on which frequency we will work
on - this will be the frequency for the antenna.
Tesla is built in multiplicity to match the antenna.
Push pool in multiplicity to magnetic resonance.
I called it magnetic resonance, since two bifilar electromagnets interact. This is not LC resonance.
The frequency does not change either from the load, or from the presence of closed or open ends of
the gradient coil. LC is sure to detune very far in such changing conditions.
Ground wire 18 meters and a buried stainless steel case from an old washing machine.

[Maxolous]

   

   

     


« Sent to: NickZ on: May 26, 2023,

A fragment from conversation with Sergey Stalker
A gradient coil is a high-frequency resonator that operates simultaneously at several frequencies that are multiples of a half wave. It is also a capacitor plate in relation to the antenna.
I have a 15.6 megahertz gradient coil frequency, antenna is at the same frequency.
Tesla tuned to antenna at a multiplicity of 1.5 megahertz with a little offset. Antenna - a top capacitance for Tesla coil.
The antenna wire coiled into a spiral emits at 15.6 megahertz.
Shnyaga is optional, this is a mirror for the antenna wave. Often a connection of wires of different diameters is sufficient.
This is only important when using a kacher to modulate high frequency. If the circuit is a controlled Tesla coil, then the effect of the magnetic field (from gradient coil) is not required.
Everything starts with a gradient coil and is built to match it. Antenna to match the gradient coil,
Tesla coil to match the antenna. Push pool to match the gradient coil.
If the gradient coil does not work - there is no HF spectrum, then nothing will come of it, just rewind.
Grounding through a diode to the cold end of the grenade (cathode to the ground).
Tesla coil also grounded (directly).
The diode does not need to affect the operation of the coil, it affects the operation of the capacitor formed by the coils.
In relation to the gradient coil, the diode is located in the current node.
The collision of magnetic fields creates a diverging wave from the center of the conductor to the edges, and the process of interference begins with the formation of the RF spectrum. The frequency at which collisions occur is neither dependent on the load nor on whether the ends are closed or open. This is not LC resonance, so it is convenient to tune everything to match it.
I called it magnetic resonance for myself.

Q: And if so, which magnetic fields are colliding? Gradient coil's inductor and the grenadeitself?

In the grenade itself, from two counter wound bifilar coils.
Q: or "halves" of a grenade?
You can also call them halves.
First, gradient coil is made, its magnetic resonance determined, then we look at whether it generates
a HF spectrum when shorted, if so, then it's cool, if not - throwing the turns over the layers and see
what comes out, rework until it produce some HF.
According to the HF spectrum of the gradient coil, we determine on which frequency we will work
on - this will be the frequency for the antenna.
Tesla is built in multiplicity to match the antenna.
Push pool in multiplicity to magnetic resonance.
I called it magnetic resonance, since two bifilar electromagnets interact. This is not LC resonance.
The frequency does not change either from the load, or from the presence of closed or open ends of
the gradient coil. LC is sure to detune very far in such changing conditions.
Ground wire 18 meters and a buried stainless steel case from an old washing machine.

I see everything here as true.

Dear Nickz,
Nothing is wrong with PP freq. of 15.6KHZ. it is workable.

Maxolous

[Maxolous]

Nickz and Itsu,

I found out why my device was tripping off: the pathway of signal from the drain of my controlled Tesla MOSFET to earth was not properly established. It was caused by when I was etching my prototype board for this build.
My oversight.

Maxolous

[NickZ]

Stalker mentions Grenade frequency of 15.6Mhz. Even a kacher can't go that high.
That's why I asked itsu what he thinks. And the antenna coil has to match that, as well.
perhaps I don't ubderstand. The whole ststem has to match the 15.6MHz frequency???
Pease correct me, if I'm not getting this.

   NickZ

[Itsu]

Max,

good to hear you found the problem, so now you can go full throttle 



Nick,

that's an interesting piece of information you got there, but it raises more questions (due to translation problems?) than giving answers.

A gradient coil is a high-frequency resonator that operates simultaneously at several frequencies that are multiples of a half wave

This gradient coil (Grenade) is indeed a high-frequency resonator as i have shown, mine resonates at 2MHz.

But 2Mhz corresponds to a wavelength of 150m and as my Grenade is build out of 37.5m long wire it therefor looks like it resonates as a 1/4 (quarter) wave length resonator (most obvious).

On the other hand, it is common practice to "shorten" an antenna by inserting a coil (coiling up a part of the antenna wire) in the antenna wire so that you have a physical shorter antenna then the wavelength of the frequency would dictate.

It could be that this Grenade is cramping all of its 150m wavelength into this 37.5m due to its being coiled up the way it is (less obvious).


If i go for the most obvious way (1/4 (quarter) wave length resonator), then we need to turn it into a 1/2 (half) wave resonator (4Mhz) and let it create multiple harmonics (8, 16, etc. MHz).
1/2 (half) wave resonators (antenna's) are normally fed in the middle to create a half-wave dipole, but this is not possible here.


So even the above single sentence is raising so many questions.



So no, i do not see my Grenade being a 15.6 megahertz gradient coil frequency (does that means his Grenade resonates as 15.6MHz?) nor is my antenna, which according to this calculator:
https://hamwaves.com/inductance/en/index.html#input     is self resonating at 41MHz.


And yes, i do consider 15kHz to 20kHz to be HF as there are radio transmitters in that range see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency.

Sorry for creating more confusion perhaps.

Need to study this piece of information further.

Itsu

[Itsu]

Concerning my measurement of the Grenade using the nanoVNA (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4471.msg104820#msg104820), some additional information.

With the VNA you can make some 3 different measurements as shown in this picture (the DUT (Device Under Test) being the Grenade):



I used the last (Series Measurement) for that measurement, but i now also used the first (Shunt Measurement) measurement to double-check with this as result (frequency span reduced to 5mHz):



We again see a resonance point at around 2MHz (1.859)

This result is kind of as expected, but also poses some problems IMO like, how is it possible that a 37.5m long wire wired up as a Grenade can resonate on 2MHz?

As mentioned earlier, 2Mhz frequency is a wavelength of 150m, so does this mean that the Grenade (37.5M long wire) is resonating as a 1/4 (one quarter) wave resonator.

I will try to make other measurements using the nanoVNA like with a ground plane underneath the Grenade and in Series Measurement to see if i can get a different outcome (1/2 (half) wave resonance).


Itsu

[Maxolous]

Itsu,

It's indeed a ¼wave resonance.

Maxolous

[Itsu]

Max,

i tend to agree looking at the graph, so like our tesla coil / kacher.

But a coil also should have a half wave resonance point and some harmonics, but the graph does not show any.

Itsu

[Maxolous]

Max,

i tend to agree looking at the graph, so like our tesla coil / kacher.

But a coil also should have a half wave resonance point and some harmonics, but the graph does not show any.

Itsu

Hi Itsu,

One of the best method for me to check my grenade coil is to use spectrum analyzer. We have gone through that in the past. It's still very invaluable to me.

Once you know the resonance frequency of your grenade coil , go to it sub-harmonic driven by square wave to attract all it harmonic freq.  You know square wave is made up of other sine waves. Detect by evaluation the one that suit your device. Such parasitic wave is what you need to drive your Tesla, if we'll mimicked you will see results.

Maxolous

[Maxolous]

It is also important to note that if a coil is not well wound, you may never see usable harmonic.

I  usually get result when my inductance is equal or less than 100μH

Maxolous

[NickZ]

   Itsu:
   Ok, thanks for your opinion. As you may know, I am not good at math, nor do I want to be. So, your opinions are very valuable to me.
   The guy who passed this information to me, also mentioned that there is NO errors due to the translation. And that makes things even more uncertain.
   My grenade is old, like about 5 years old, but it also runs best at around 1.8KHz, or so, also. Depending on tuning caps, of which I am limited on, especially the WIMA 0.47uf inductor tuning capacitors. As well as the 0.1uf wima caps for the grenade output side, before the rectifier. As mine can get very hot and crack. Mine are cracked, but fixed with epoxy, and still work.
   While my Kacher runs best at around 950KHz to about 1.2MHz, or so. So, the suggested frequency and harmonics matches mentioned by others don't work for me, and so therefore  I tune by tuning for best gain, instead.
   Any way, I also don't think that the information provided is factual, nor makes much sense to me. As well as also some of the other information written by Stalker previously.
Therefore I don't know if we can just build away without any issues nor problems, using his information. As you have done itsu previously, and I also feel that this info is not factual, and may be in error. Also keeping in mind that no two self runner are running at the same frequencies, so, I tune by gain, not by set frequencies. As I found out that NOTHING happen, using the supposed harmonics, nor suggested set frequencies. But, the actual sync, can be somewhere close by, instead. Geofusion had pretty interesting results, even without using a scope, at first.

   NIckZ

[Maxolous]

With a well arrangements of your modules(grenade, tank circuit, yoke coils, diodes, inductors, Tesla coil shinyaga, push-pull, controlled Tesla or kacher, caps) you will see gain. Even without resonance. Resonance is used to maximize output. I found that out

Maxolous


   Max:  Not one person in any of our forums has shown an actual gain, perhaps you'll be the first. This is about overunity, and self running etc. Not just about showing a gain, or resonance, but providing for some actual OU, instead.  The more, the better. As lighting a little Led bulb for free, is not going to be of much help.

   NickZ

[Maxolous]

With a well arrangements of your modules(grenade, tank circuit, yoke coils, diodes, inductors, Tesla coil shinyaga, push-pull, controlled Tesla or kacher, caps) you will see gain. Even without resonance. Resonance is used to maximize output. I found that out

Maxolous


   Max:  Not one person in any of our forums has shown an actual gain, perhaps you'll be the first. This is about overunity, and self running etc. Not just about showing a gain, or resonance, but providing for some actual OU, instead.  The more, the better. As lighting a little Led bulb for free, is not going to be of much help.

   NickZ

Nickz,
What is gain, gain is taken out what you put in and have some extra.

Maxolous

[Itsu]

Hi Itsu,

One of the best method for me to check my grenade coil is to use spectrum analyzer. We have gone through that in the past. It's still very invaluable to me.

Once you know the resonance frequency of your grenade coil , go to it sub-harmonic driven by square wave to attract all it harmonic freq.  You know square wave is made up of other sine waves. Detect by evaluation the one that suit your device. Such parasitic wave is what you need to drive your Tesla, if we'll mimicked you will see results.

Maxolous

Hi Max,

the nanoVNA also uses a square wave to excite the device under test, so i would expect to see the harmonics there as well.
But i will try using my spectrum analyzer to see if i have different results.

Itsu

[Maxolous]

Hi Max,

the nanoVNA also uses a square wave to excite the device under test, so i would expect to see the harmonics there as well.
But i will try using my spectrum analyzer to see if i have different results.

Itsu

Itsu,
Okay,
Sure do.

[NickZ]

   Itsu:
  What is a nanoVNA. Sorry to ask.
   I'll bet you'll get all the harmonics showing up on your analyzer. As they are most likely, all there.
   
   NickZ

[Itsu]

   Itsu:
  What is a nanoVNA. Sorry to ask.
   I'll bet you'll get all the harmonics showing up on your analyzer. As they are most likely, all there.
   
   NickZ

Nick,

a nanoVNA is a handheld VNA (Vector Network Analyzer) and can be used to measure all kind of parameters of a device like a Spectrum Analyzer does, but there are differences:    https://www.testandmeasurementtips.com/how-spectrum-analyzers-differ-from-network-analyzers/

My nanoVNA has a frequency sweeping range from 10kHz to 2.7GHz, and it has 2 ports to attach the DUT (Device Under Test) and a USB interface to a PC to show the results on (or on its little screen), see picture.

As can be seen here: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4471.msg104820#msg104820 i already used it to analyze my Grenade on inductance and impedance across a 10kHz to 20MHz range.
There you can see that my Grenade resonates around 2MHz but that almost no harmonics are seen.

But as Max also mentioned, perhaps the better instrument to look for harmonics is the Spectrum Analyzer which works differently than the nanoVNA and might show them.

Itsu


   Itsu:
   Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand.

   NickZ

[NickZ]

    Guys:
   Here is a video explaining the how and why when a circuit is opened, what happens to the emf or bemf, and why this effect may be important in our OU devices.
   Also why the Kacher may be taking advantage of the OFF times, that I mentioned.  And why the Kacher is not actually adding anything, but interrupting the flow from the magnetic induction circuit, thus producing a higher output therefrom, each time the field changes directions. As this also can affect the surrounding ambient medium around the device. What Ruslan called "shakes or vibrates" the surrounding ambient near the coils, thus causing this additional energy to enter the device, by this type of disruption, from the Aether surrounding the device. This effect was also noticed by Tesla, and he also has explained the dangers it can cause.

   https://youtu.be/mWT0VTUxbQg

   Max, this information and video are for you, and anyone else wondering how the BEMF can be the cause and reason for any additional extra energy. Which is further affected by the Kacher's  interruptor signal pulse. It's also important to tune the Kacher coils size first, to their self running frequency, that matches the needed inductor/grenade frequencies, and not to expect the trim pots on the circuits will make up for it. As the kacher's coils need to be first turned to the proper resonant frequency, matched to the rest of the induction circuits.
This is where things get very tricky.
   

   NickZ