Grenade coil type systems

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Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #50 on: 2023-09-29, 18:50:49 »

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Quote from: Apecore on 2023-09-29, 18:41:55

The question that comes next is could it be electrostatic as you indicated inductive related would not pass the copper tube.

@Itsu: If Delamorto is not keeping you busy, could you earth-ground that copper tube and see whether the effect becomes confined to that coax cable inside it (shorted and terminated in a Cu foil box).

All electric field interactions outside should be stopped by an earth-grounded copper tube.

Grumage	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #51 on: 2023-09-29, 19:15:58 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 3095	Hi Guys. From 9 years ago…. https://youtu.be/uDofBGk4OCc?feature=shared Once again, please delete if inappropriate. To be honest I don’t really know what was actually happening….. Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #52 on: 2023-09-29, 19:41:36 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2023-09-29, 19:15:58

Once again, please delete if inappropriate. To be honest I don’t really know what was actually happening…..

It is relevant and appropriate.

I notice that your experiment was not performed tightly. Specifically, the coax was not driven completely asymmetrically (the way coax is usually driven). You did not guard against applying high voltage potentials on the shield of the coax and I did not notice that the shield was earth-grounded.

Itsu

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #53 on: 2023-09-29, 21:42:50 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-09-29, 18:50:49

@Itsu: If Delamorto is not keeping you busy, could you earth-ground that copper tube and see whether the effect becomes confined to that coax cable inside it (shorted and terminated in a Cu foil box).

All electric field interactions outside should be stopped by an earth-grounded copper tube.

It seems that Delamorto has put his thread on hold for the time being.

I found that copper tube coil still with the coax center wire inside, so i can try to do that test again now with the copper tube grounded and the resistor shielded.

Itsu

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #54 on: 2023-09-29, 21:56:10 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2023-09-29, 21:42:50

I found that copper tube coil still with the coax center wire inside, so i can try to do that test again now with the copper tube grounded and the resistor shielded.

Great!
Please do not connect the coax's shield to the copper tube, but earth-ground the copper tube.

The foil/box that shields the termination resistor, should not touch that resistor nor the coax's shield, but it should be connected (preferably by solder) to the copper tube.

Sense the magnetic field outside the copper tube with an H-field probe made like this and diameter as large as 70% of the inner diameter of the copper tube helix.

Sense the electric field outside the copper tube with a bare scope probe tip, possibly with a flake of metal foil attached to it for higher sensitivity.

solarlab

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #55 on: 2023-09-30, 04:18:06 »

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Grenade Coil & Antenna Interactions

Just another guess (?)

Consider the last four or five pages of this thread:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg95922#msg95922
(note that many of my posts were removed from this thread but the idea/approach
can still be gleaned, at least to some extent)

Now consider the Magnetic (Lorentz) and Electric forces as shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C8mRW43X0Q&t=756s

{An increase in "v," gives an increase in "kinetic energy," which gives "more output"}

JMHO - remove as you wish...

SL

Verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #56 on: 2023-09-30, 08:07:19 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4440	Quote from: solarlab on 2023-09-30, 04:18:06 (note that many of my posts were removed from this thread ... Who removed them ?

Itsu

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #57 on: 2023-09-30, 10:14:45 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-09-29, 21:56:10

Great!
Please do not connect the coax's shield to the copper tube, but earth-ground the copper tube.

The foil/box that shields the termination resistor, should not touch that resistor nor the coax's shield, but it should be connected (preferably by solder) to the copper tube.

Sense the magnetic field outside the copper tube with an H-field probe made like this and diameter as large as 70% of the inner diameter of the copper tube helix.

Sense the electric field outside the copper tube with a bare scope probe tip, possibly with a flake of metal foil attached to it for higher sensitivity.

There is no coax cable inside the copper tube coil, just the inner conductor of a coax cable, so the copper tube acts as the coax shield.

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #58 on: 2023-09-30, 18:04:18 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2023-09-30, 10:14:45

There is no coax cable inside the copper tube coil, just the inner conductor of a coax cable, so the copper tube acts as the coax shield.j

Verpies,
This incorrect assumption, does this deviate in a mayor way from the objective as the outher coax shield is not there?

I understand your view, but for complete understanding this is in my opinion a mayor change we need to adtesss the impact,( no coax shield)
In other words is its grounding of the outher core ( copper tube) sufficient enough in order to approve a electricstatic impact?
As this is my assumption at the moment?

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #59 on: 2023-09-30, 18:45:04 »

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A mayor impact I see as a change from the core objective which could have crucial impact on the objective criteria.
A minor change I see as a non impact issue.

I'd like you ( verpies) to continue to monitor these aspects as you do now and I hope you could continue to be a source to take this impact process also into consideration as you are more factual orientated then I am.

Also I recommend Itsu which based on his test performance
Testing effort ( being a mayor contributor to this space in doing validational testing) as a member of this aproval/ validation process.
It will contribute to a better overall clear understanding and effectively separates the noise.

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #60 on: 2023-09-30, 23:30:16 »

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Ape, I agree with you but I cannot ask him to pull that wire out of the tube and replace it with thin 50Ω coax because it is very hard to put in something in a curved tube and he probably does not have such a thin coax anyway. Straightening that tube and bending it again would be a bitch and would probably brake it.

So this is too much to ask, especially that I do have a thin coax and can make new shielded coil easier than he can alter his. I just don't have a working DSRD nanopulser ATM because I blew it up.

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #61 on: 2023-10-01, 01:46:22 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-09-30, 23:30:16

Ape, I agree with you but I cannot ask him to pull that wire out of the tube and replace it with thin 50Ω coax because it is very hard to put in something in a curved tube and he probably does not have such a thin coax anyway. Straightening that tube and bending it again would be a bitch and would probably brake it.

So this is too much to ask, especially that I do have a thin coax and can make new shielded coil easier than he can alter his. I just don't have a working DSRD nanopulser ATM because I blew it up.

I would love to hear from Itsu if he has a substitute which could compare with the coax shield.
If not can we compare the results by just grounding the outher copper coil?

AlienGrey

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #62 on: 2023-10-01, 05:29:07 »

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So your going to use some copper brake fluid tube as and aerial spiral around the grenade
I presume your going to use some coax inner installed in the tube and connect it to the far end of the tube like a hairpin? well yeah your building a great transmitter, I presume you do know how the device is supposed to work or do you ? have you noticed Ruslen doesn't build his like that, that’s because there could well be an other way to do it.

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #63 on: 2023-10-01, 06:18:54 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

So your going to use some copper brake fluid tube

Yes. I did not buy it yet.

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

as and aerial

No, as a shield.

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

spiral around the grenade

No

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

I presume your going to use some inner coax installed in the tube

Yes

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

and connect it to the far end of the tube like a hairpin?

No

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

I presume you do know how the device is supposed to work or do you ?

We will see

Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-01, 05:29:07

have you noticed Ruslen doesn't build his like that,

Yes. I do not work in monkey-see-monkey-do manner.

Instead, I make an educated guess about the operating principle and let it guide the build.
If it doesn't test as expected, I make up another plausible operating principle and repeat the whole process.

This experiment is only to better understand the behavior of coils wound with coaxial cables. I already wrote about that and you should know it, if you read Ape's and my words in this thread.

Grenade coil type systems

FerriteMaterials.png (18.56 kB, 1099x395 - viewed 987 times.)

Itsu

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #64 on: 2023-10-01, 10:26:48 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-09-30, 23:30:16

Ape, I agree with you but I cannot ask him to pull that wire out of the tube and replace it with thin 50Ω coax because it is very hard to put in something in a curved tube and he probably does not have such a thin coax anyway. Straightening that tube and bending it again would be a bitch and would probably brake it.

So this is too much to ask, especially that I do have a thin coax and can make new shielded coil easier than he can alter his. I just don't have a working DSRD nanopulser ATM because I blew it up.

verpies is right, this copper tube has such a small inner diameter that only the inner conductor of a piece of RG-316 coax fits into it, see picture (sorry for it being blur).

One needs a very thin piece of coax to be able to fit it inside, or use some copper tubing with a wider diameter.

Itsu

Grenade coil type systems

tube coax.png (339.38 kB, 562x503 - viewed 369 times.)

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #65 on: 2023-10-01, 12:04:50 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-01, 10:26:48

verpies is right, this copper tube has such a small inner diameter that only the inner conductor of a piece of RG-316 coax fits into it, see picture (sorry for it being blur).

One needs a very thin piece of coax to be able to fit it inside, or use some copper tubing with a wider diameter.

Itsu

In other words doing the by Verpies proposed test cant be executed in this way.
Is it an idea I purchase some copper 8mm outside 1mm layer thickness and send it to Itsu?
Or @Verpies do we have another test option with the same purpose?

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #66 on: 2023-10-01, 13:02:51 »

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Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-01, 12:04:50

Is it an idea I purchase some copper 8mm outside 1mm layer thickness and send it to Itsu?

If he was the last guy on Earth with a pulser and scope, then yes.
I am sure he can afford to buy the supplies himself, but this experiment is not his idea - it's mine.
I just asked him because he seemed to have almost everything ready for it. I wouldn't have, if I knew what I know now.

Grumage

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #67 on: 2023-10-01, 13:21:30 »

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Most Copper water pipes are measured by internal diameter.

Itsu could buy a short length of either 8 mm or 10 mm bore soft Copper central heating tube from his local Plumbing Supply Company ( usually sold by the Metre ) I would recommend pulling the tube straight, annealing it and then pass the coaxial cable through before coiling it.

Does this become a 3 plate capacitor?

Cheers Grum.

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Verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #68 on: 2023-10-01, 13:40:50 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4440	Quote from: Grumage on 2023-10-01, 13:21:30 ...annealing it... To non metal workers that means heating it up with a propane torch to make it softer to bend. Propane torch will not melt it. OxyAc - will. Copper stays softer even after cooling down, however it becomes hard again as it is cold-worked (e.g. hammered, bent, rolled, extruded) - this piece of trivia was not for you Grum.

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #69 on: 2023-10-01, 16:22:36 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4684	I found some length of soft copper tubing with 6mm outside diameter and 4.5mm inside diameter which could house a piece of RG-316 coax (outer diameter 2.5mm). I will order some length of this RG-316 coax and try to insert it into the tubing. Itsu

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #70 on: 2023-10-02, 12:46:52 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-09-29, 21:56:10

Great!
Please do not connect the coax's shield to the copper tube, but earth-ground the copper tube.

The foil/box that shields the termination resistor, should not touch that resistor nor the coax's shield, but it should be connected (preferably by solder) to the copper tube.

Sense the magnetic field outside the copper tube with an H-field probe made like this and diameter as large as 70% of the inner diameter of the copper tube helix.

Sense the electric field outside the copper tube with a bare scope probe tip, possibly with a flake of metal foil attached to it for higher sensitivity.

Hi Verpies,

As Itsu is preparing coming period the proposed 1st test, could you bring up in the mean time a direction of approaches as a 2nd step?
I think a lot of us including me want to know what the follow up approach would be. I understand we don't know the outcome yet, but maybe we could speculate already?

AlienGrey

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #71 on: 2023-10-02, 13:39:38 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-01, 10:26:48

verpies is right, this copper tube has such a small inner diameter that only the inner conductor of a piece of RG-316 coax fits into it, see picture (sorry for it being blur).

One needs a very thin piece of coax to be able to fit it inside, or use some copper tubing with a wider diameter.

Itsu

Copper water pipe, it doesn't matter what diameter it is if it has a hole down the middle
its a short circuit turn, look at it this way your converting accelerated voltage to current it's the magnet down the copper pipe. So be aware there could be sparks (re one of Don Smith's vids example.

Sil

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #72 on: 2023-10-02, 17:19:31 »

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Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-02, 12:46:52

...could you bring up in the mean time a direction of approaches as a 2nd step?
I think a lot of us including me want to know what the follow up approach would be. I understand we don't know the outcome yet, but maybe we could speculate already?

Later, I'd like to design ITC immune windings to generate magnetic fields like this:

This is easy to do with DC, as can be seen above, but to quickly switch between that field configuration and this one:

is not easy with two coils because of inductance and ITC.

Hopefully the windings wound with coaxial cable (driven asymmetrically) will mitigate the latter.

Apecore

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #73 on: 2023-10-02, 17:35:30 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-02, 17:19:31

Later, I'd like to design ITC immune windings to generate magnetic fields like this:

This is easy to do with DC, as can be seen above, but to quickly switch between that field configuration and this one:

is not easy with two coils because of inductance and ITC.

Hopefully the windings wound with coaxial cable (driven asymmetrically) will mitigate the latter.

And for what purpose is this / wil this field be used?

Verpies

Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #74 on: 2023-10-02, 17:39:57 »

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Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-02, 17:35:30

And for what purpose is this / will this field be used?

To rapidly change the direction of the magnetic flux in a small circular section of the ferrite (or metal) on which the coils are wound.
The photos above depict coils wound on a small ferrite rod, but I'd like to use something with larger diameter^* and since large ferrite rods are hard to come by, I probably will end up using a toroidal core sausage.

^* _{to keep the frequencies sane.}