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Author Topic: Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector  (Read 265712 times)
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I was hoping this would not be the case, but it appears the cogging is unbalanced, with the attraction pushing the prime mover being considerably smaller than the pulling by the prime mover to overcome it.

It's a problem of geometry I think.  Seems like I saw this before with the JB stuff and their change from attraction mode to repulsion mode.  The idea being it is easier to balance the cogging when the prime mover has to overcome the resistance on entry and gets a push on exit.

The other method is to have enough poles where for any resistance you encounter on a particular pole, there is some other pole that is giving you an equal assistance.  This is the idea T-1000 mentioned from the RomeroUK device.
   

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I was hoping this would not be the case, but it appears the cogging is unbalanced, with the attraction pushing the prime mover being considerably smaller than the pulling by the prime mover to overcome it.

It's a problem of geometry I think.  Seems like I saw this before with the JB stuff and their change from attraction mode to repulsion mode.  The idea being it is easier to balance the cogging when the prime mover has to overcome the resistance on entry and gets a push on exit.

The other method is to have enough poles where for any resistance you encounter on a particular pole, there is some other pole that is giving you an equal assistance.  This is the idea T-1000 mentioned from the RomeroUK device.

Matt did you see what I asked MH on OU.com. It was loaded by me, his answer!!!! well take it as you will, I'm not going to start anything there ;D never seen such a load of waffle, he got a bit out of his depth I think >:-)

regards

Mike 8)


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Download and archive......this ones a keeper!

Yes it sure is.

It is all explained and tested O0

Being a radio Ham I understand this explination totally and is very important to build to the right sizes

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Thanks for that German post. Good read. I need help with some coil design. T said to go with max surface area i.e. pancake but with my geometry that is a tad difficult. Attached is a pic of my current setup. I can get the motor running at 4300rpm on 500ma 12vdc, which is giving me 2v ac. I'm using a lamp to give me an indication of current atm as I'm tearing down a lot and rebuilding. I've rebuilt the setup 3 times today LOL. Anyway here's what I'm observing and I'm confused. If I place the steel in the pic on top of the mag it creates heavy cogging. That bit I get. I just gave the mag greater mass and enlarged or strengthened the field. That bit I get. EVen if I place steels on 3 or six of the mags the cogging and current draw is ridiculous. Not to mention the stresses it puts on the rig. However if I put the steels BETWEEN the mags as shown in the pic I get the same amount of volts and the lamp LOOKS about the same . I can run it at six watts with the steels in place. What I'm teaching myself is coil winding and design. I've learned a lot. But I was just looking at the coils in an old McCulloch gen being discussed over at energetic and it has me a little perplexed. Initially I was looking at wind turbines coil design but I'm now wondering if there is a better way. On each of those steels a 20awg coil will give me 2v on the front. I was thinking of loading the whole steel with 3 coils or one big one. If I did 3 coils I could get maybe 4.5 - 5v on the front and about 2v on the rear. So say 5-6v per steel x 6 gives me say 35v at maybe 20ma or 7watts. Anyway that is the goal. I realise more coils gives me more flexibility in maximising amps over volts etc with different bridge configs as well.  Is there any advantage though to wind maybe only a couple of big arse coils that cover all the steels?
   
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Small update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TkAq9DJPY

Looks good Luc.  Waveform much more conventional.  Glad you are still working this experiment.

I am a little nervous about the green liquid in the coffee cup this close to New Years.    :P
Is that the secret in Canada?  Anti-freeze?    ;D
   
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Thanks Matt,

yes, anti-freeze is the best!... for cooling a resistor ;)

Luc
   

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Thanks Matt,

yes, anti-freeze is the best!... for cooling a resistor ;)

Luc

Hi luc, great work. I need to learn to weld :) hot glue isn't cutting it. :)  something I observed today you may find helpful. When the poles of the rotor are magnetically connected they don't cog that much, however in my experiments the take twice as much power to run. Mass will also play a part but I can get just as much power gen for half the power cost by using a rotor that has magnetically insulated poles. Looks like absinthe to me.
   
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Small update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5TkAq9DJPY
Hi Luc,

I wonder - is it magnetic attraction causing initial 83 watts to be used in your setup?
If the drill motor is causing that I bet it is best time to exchange it to smaller pulse motor which will consume less than 10 watts if magnetic attraction is not so big..

Also I have suspicion about geometry there - if the C core is passing magnet by approaching and leaving it directly on N/S poles vectors the magnetic force is largest.
To see what I am about get two very strong magnets, snap them together and try to separate them apart. You will see how much force is required just to do that. And if you start sliding them on the side the force required to separate them is much smaller.

Cheers!
   
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To see what I am about get two very strong magnets, snap them together and try to separate them apart. You will see how much force is required just to do that. And if you start sliding them on the side the force required to separate them is much smaller.

There's a geometry challenge for you.  Build a magnetic motor that takes advantage of this.

Two magnets on connecting rods approach each other providing the motive force of the motor,  At full extension of the rods (minimal clearance between the two magnets) a cam is activated on each magnet to slide them apart as a shearing force (motor loss), then the connecting rods are withdrawn.  At full retraction of the connecting rods, the cycle is repeated.

Power consumed = shearing force plus retraction force
Power created = attraction force

If the later is greater than the former, you should have a self-runner.

I'd bet Grum (OUR resident engine man) sees how this could work.   ;)
   
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Hi luc, great work. I need to learn to weld :) hot glue isn't cutting it. :) 

Thanks JimBoot. 5 minute 2 part epoxy will work much better than hot glue. But the nice thing about hot glue is the ability to take things apart and reuse them.

Luc
   

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There's a geometry challenge for you.  Build a magnetic motor that takes advantage of this.

Two magnets on connecting rods approach each other providing the motive force of the motor,  At full extension of the rods (minimal clearance between the two magnets) a cam is activated on each magnet to slide them apart as a shearing force (motor loss), then the connecting rods are withdrawn.  At full retraction of the connecting rods, the cycle is repeated.

Power consumed = shearing force plus retraction force
Power created = attraction force

If the later is greater than the former, you should have a self-runner.

I'd bet Grum (OUR resident engine man) sees how this could work.   ;)

Funny you have said this ;D I have had an idea for quite some time about using two rotors in the same plane :D

Basicly it is an ordinary generator but a second rotor of iron, free running between the normal rotor and stator.

What I would hope would happen is any counter magnetic force produced would be absorbed by that free running iron rotor, it would be a counter magnetic force sink (drain).

I know this is not going to add but just remove the lenz reaction from being transmitted to the prime mover, but it could just be enough to get us over the hill, so to say >:-)

regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Hi Luc,

I wonder - is it magnetic attraction causing initial 83 watts to be used in your setup?
If the drill motor is causing that I bet it is best time to exchange it to smaller pulse motor which will consume less than 10 watts if magnetic attraction is not so big..

Also I have suspicion about geometry there - if the C core is passing magnet by approaching and leaving it directly on N/S poles vectors the magnetic force is largest.
To see what I am about get two very strong magnets, snap them together and try to separate them apart. You will see how much force is required just to do that. And if you start sliding them on the side the force required to separate them is much smaller.

Cheers!


Hi T-1000,

I made 3 videos to demonstrate and answer your questions.

First video is to explore magnetic cogging on the cores. As far as I'm concerned, the pull and push forces are equal so we should be breaking even when rotating the C core over the I cores less Eddy current losses in the cores.
Video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDR0lfv4BgU

Now lets explore the power needed just to turn the drill press and C core rotor.
Video Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXkNJZ9K_Ks

So with no I cores present we need       54 Watts
and with I cores present we needs         87 Watts

So we have 33 Watts needed to turn the C cores over the I cores.
Here is a video demo where I load the coil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LiYwiDrbMM

So we can get 5.3 Watts out of the coil plus we need to consider the coils DC Resistance of 1.3 Ohms which may represent another 4 Watts. So we can get 9.3 watts out plus the coil under load assists the rotor and drops the prime mover power by 4 Watts.

So we can account for 13.3 Watts! ... so where is the rest of the power going?  
There are other losses involve which we need to consider when using Iron or soft steel laminations. I think we may need to consider Iron Powder Cores! (keep in mind this is not hard like ferrite cores)
TinMan has made a great video to demonstrate steel lamination losses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtB_7RkEg

Share your thoughts.

Luc

   
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Luc,

As I replied on overunity forum - Thanks for videos, seems your drill motor really need replacement to more economic one and the cores have eddy currents in losses as well. Also to smooth out movement you will need flywheel for kinetic capacitor role there as well.

Cheers!
   
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Luc,

I hope this message finds you in good spirits and health.  I hope this message finds you prepared to move into the new year with no regrets regarding things experience or not in 2014.  

Your latest experiment is well constructed as usual, the results however are conventional, I am sure you are aware of this.  Your wave forms indicate (to me) that your point of maximum induced potential is between the points of greatest flux density, you are well aware of this I'm sure, and you know that this is the exact same condition we find in just about every motor or generator on the planet.  I am going to suggest something which is both unorthodox and possibly difficult to wrap ones head around.  Please do not blow this off, please consider it as I have considered many of your suggestions over the years.

  • Establish the conditions where by the point of maximum induced potential manifests at the point of maximum flux density.

This places your induced flux in phase with the inducing flux.  Understand that the terms "in phase" is loosely used, its clear that the induced and inducing will still be in opposition under the new set of circumstances, bucking.  The point to be recognized as important here is that the bucking is taking place at the point of maximum flux density, the so called zero crossing.  In the scenario I suggest we have the induced potential coincident with the inducing flux, or better stated, we have voltage induced at the zero crossing.  

I hope the message is received and you consider the suggestion.  Once you understand what my suggestion implies, and have established those conditions in your setup to where you experience maximum induced potential at the zero crossing, then we can discuss the next steps.  Please do not make the assumption that the suggested is off topic.  The topic for whatever reason includes the words (BEMF Redirector).  Not really sure if the individual who started this thread really knows exactly how far that concept can be taken.  Owing to your history, I hope you see the value in what I have suggested, and where it leads when applied.


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Thanks Erfinder for posting your suggestion as to where to go from here.

I can't say I understand the concept on my first read or maybe I'm not ready? but I'll go through it a few times and see if I get it.

Luc
   
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Sorry!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-12, 23:01:24 by wattsup »


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Hi everyone,

Happy New Year!

Here is a video update of what I've been working on for the past 2 days

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms

Stay tuned for the test results

Luc
   
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The topic for whatever reason includes the words (BEMF Redirector).  Not really sure if the individual who started this thread really knows exactly how far that concept can be taken.

I think I chose the topic as more of an advertisement to get people curious enough to take a look.  What is really happening in the device referenced in the first post, remains to be deciphered.

And where this could lead...  I have a hint based on the Skype call we had, where you showed me some interesting phenomena.  Quite frankly, you are as qualified as anyone to take us to the next level in this discovery.
   
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Here is a video update of what I've been working on for the past 2 days

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms

Geez Luc, you don't mess around.  Have you gotten any sleep in the last two days?


Just a couple of checks and comments:

Stator wires:  Have you checked continuity to make sure there are no shorts or weird ohm readings?

Original rotor winding:  If it where me, I really think I'd take them completely out.  There is no telling what the ground copper may do to alter this generator's performance.  You have copper shorted everywhere, so that could cause some strange behavior.

Other than that, yes, I'm ready to see what this does when spun up.  So are you going to energize one set of coils and read the output off the other set?
   
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Stator wires:  Have you checked continuity to make sure there are no shorts or weird ohm readings?

Original rotor winding:  If it where me, I really think I'd take them completely out. 

So are you going to energize one set of coils and read the output off the other set?

Good point Matt!  I'll take out the old stator windings

All the new windings are fine (no shorts)

There are many combinations that can be done with the 4 coils. I think I'm going to start with PM on the outside armature to see what happens when the coils are loaded. Then I'll start energizing a set of coils and load the other.

Luc
   
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@Erfinder

I think you will need to draw something out or maybe give a simpler or more precise explanation.

@gotoluc

Try adding four magnets that cover the ends of both core levels. Seems to me since the C cores are only passing on the top of the coil cores, the center magnets you have are not being solicited that much and you are probably creating alot of cancellation inside the coil, since the coil is wound over the four bars and the center magnets, everything originates from inside the coil winding so polarity change for the coil is not that apparent. How the polarities work in your set-up would be very difficult to figure out but I can see that the center magnets inside the targeted coil will tend to permeate the coil is a very fixed impress that will not change as much as you would hope with the spinning C cores..

I would add magnets and play with the polarities, all north out, all south out, souths on one end norths on the other end, or n-s-n-s and see if this will create more output on your coil. The yellow is to show one magnet covering two levels so you need four magnets. You could even try the magnet from left to right on the top (orange) and on the bottom core at each end. There are still many ways to play this with this very fine toy. Mattel would be proud.

wattsup



Thanks for your post and suggestions wattsup. I'll give it some tries and see.

Luc
   
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Hi everyone,

Happy New Year!

Here is a video update of what I've been working on for the past 2 days

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnTImIQlAms

Stay tuned for the test results

Luc


Awesome  machine, excellent attention to detail, excellent craftsmanship.  

The machine reminds me of the L.A.G that Tinman built, a machine that I replicated.  There are some minor differences between the machine you demonstrate and the L.A.G, however these are so small that one could actually consider your new machine as a replication of the L.A.G....What I am getting at here is we are in familiar territory.  One key advance was demonstrated by Tinman, embodied in (and this is the funny part) an unmodified universal motor.  Where a diode is added to the field coil in the proper direction, led to acceleration of the device when the winding was shorted.  It was also shown that in this condition small amounts of power could be extracted.  In reading the thread, thngr also makes that same exact claim with relation to adding the diode.  The unmodified universal motor didn't have the same performance characteristics as the original L.A.G, but it did demonstrate that the effects could be produced with unmodified machine.

Another researcher who goes by the name Mbrown on the energetic forum discusses a concept which is directly related to this design topology he is researching the lockridge device.

What I feel I can say is this, there is no need for complex geometries.  Most if not all possible configurations were tested, and the best perfected to an extremely high degree back in the Victorian era.  My findings lead me to believe that at some time in the past it was found that the ideal topology was and has remained, the salient pole configuration.  The relation between induced and inducing is such that the all too familiar bucking and back drag, the so-called Lenz associated phenomena that we find in present day design typologies are reduced to such a degree as to be considered as non existent.  I've found it practical to build air-core based systems, iron is introduced externally to the circuit, via suitable choking coils.  I find that if the device isn't designed specifically to function as a motor, the iron which is primarily there to concentrate the flux for motor action isn't needed, and serves only as a dissipation, and idea which is shared by James W. German.  Iron is a double duty material in machines we contemplate, design and build.  It serves to focus the flux, but at the same time it is a conductive material.  This latter attribute we understand, but haven't tamed.  James W. German gives us some very useful advice in this regard.  

It seems everything we call the enemy is only the enemy because we don't understand how to put them to use.  The list is long but the two phenomena at the top of the list are CEMF and Eddy currents.  Both of which we can't seem to get out of our systems, in time I hope that we finally realize why we can't and how all hope vanishes when they are removed from the equation.

What is the goal?  What are we trying to accomplish fundamentally?  We all have been at this for years now....do we have any idea of where the overunity is seated?  We should be able to look at the system and identify where the surplus will be coming from.  We all have identified this however, owing to our collective inability to convert it, we don't feel justified in calling it the source of the surplus (this and the folks who know better, constantly remind us of how stupid we are for going against the well established....I stopped listening to them......not because they are wrong, they aren't, they are limited by the established).  None of this matters however, at least not  until the proper geometry is found which allows us to generate without reflection.  When we all have a topology that we can agree on, more progress will be made in a day than has been made in the last 20 years of research from new and old researchers alike.  The topology we seek was given to us.  We refuse to acknowledge it, refuse to understand it for what it is. We want to improve a system that isn't broken.  

Will this be the year when we all self oscillate as individuals, and resonate as a community?

Happy New Year!


To each his own.  Regards

   

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@ Erfinder

I like your post  O0

What I think and also Mr. German, is that we have to take, or look at , power generation like frequency transmission, that is to say standing waves are in both, and it is those standing waves that cause the inefficiency be it  reflective RF power or magnetic power. Both these are waves and are linked permanently to one another "electro magnetic waves", and if either is not tuned correctly there are counter losses, BEMF, CEMF or SWR (standing wave ratio).

In radio transmission we transmit electro magnetic waves at frequencies we want to use. In generators we design the generator for a frequency output of 50-60Hz, but do we look at the SWR of that output in relation to the input? no not really, not in a way of standing waves such as in a transmission line.

Mr. German saw the importance and made a table top model which proved the theory, and not only that, it was replicated by an independant who the first time around did not get the results because he did not build it as Mr. German specified. On building to the specifications, which were for following wave lengths, the results were positive the second time around.

I have linked to all this in previous posts, please please read it all very carefully, it is all there and proven. The replicator made a statement to cover his back I think, Quote:- I am not saying this is over unity. Now why would he say that if it was not to cover his back??? The replicator was going to build a bigger and more powerful model, what happened to that I wonder!!

happy new year to all

regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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