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Author Topic: Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector  (Read 265713 times)
Group: Guest
That is a well known fallacy:

Lack of proof of wrongness is not a proof of correctness
...in the same manner as:
Lack of proof of existence is not a proof of nonexistence



The question is do I need proof?  Why is it required that an "idea" be proven, this is an exchange of ideas not an exchange of proofs.  I asked specific questions relating to three winding configurations, and you challenge what...my closing remark...?  If it make you feel better and helps you progress by calling an out of context reference a fallacy, more power to you, I will loose neither sleep nor respect for you for forming such a conclusion.

Regards
   

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The question is do I need proof?  
That depends on what you are trying to accomplish, nonetheless the burden of proof is on you, regardless whether you feel it's required or not.
Preemptively preventing such requirement from your reader by asking them to prove a negative is a transparent debating technique.

I asked specific questions relating to three winding configurations, and you challenge what...my closing remark...?
It was not a closing remark.  There are more words after it then before it.
You asked four questions and I replied to one of them.

The others about "deeper meaning to be associated with the concept of series and/or parallel resonant windings" were so ambiguous that they did not warrant an answer from a scientist...maybe a preacher could answer them for you.  Preachers don't like to discuss quantities and numbers either.

Why are you asking questions like this, anyway?  
Are you genuinely seeking answers to these questions or are they rhetorical questions posed in an attempt to teach your readers something?

If it make you feel better and helps you progress by calling an out of context reference a fallacy, more power to you, I will loose neither sleep nor respect for you for forming such a conclusion.
You seem to falsely assume that I have objected to this fallacy for your benefit.
No, I have objected for the benefit of others reading your message and getting demotivated by it.
   
Group: Guest
That depends on what you are trying to accomplish, nonetheless the burden of proof is on you, regardless whether you feel it's required it or not.
Preemptively preventing such requirement from your reader by asking them to prove a negative is a transparent debating technique.
No
You seem to falsely assume that I have objected to this fallacy for your benefit.
No, I have objected for the benefit of others reading your message and getting demotivated by it.


I've reserved a spot for you in the front row.  I see you've located the box of rotten tomatoes. I will wait till your arms tire, and they will, when that time comes a real exchange between us can begin.  Till that time arrives, please forgive me for that which may come across as disrespect, namely my choice to ignore your posts.


Regards
   
Group: Guest
Odd, I just gave my affirmation to Erfinder that I would listen, learn and do the experiments he speaks of.  So I come back here after reading some Tesla lectures he recommended and in less than 24 hours I see post 325, in my own thread no less.  Bad form verpies.  Please try to use some restraint.  Maybe I'm the only one that cares what Erfinder has to express.  Be that the case, you are more than welcome to read our dialog, just disconnect your TX signal and all will be good.  Preferably, I'd rather see you contribute.  Here's a statement that would be perfect for you to take a closer look at:
Quote from: Erfinder
A greater portion of this induced current is being transmitted via a longitudinally operating magnetic field.

I personally find this a very interesting statement.  I've been working on a device that I named the Lenz Locker Transformer, the objective is to add an alternate flux path for the Lenz flux to take instead of reaching the primary.  I've been testing this device with sharp impulses to get an idea of its inner workings.  One of the things I did that completely surprised me was to wind a pickup coil on this alternate flux path; my expectation is that I would not see any impulse make it's way to this path without a connected circuit on the secondary.  What I discovered was completely opposite.  I actually saw more signal on this pickup coil with the secondary open than I did with it closed.  Which brings me back to Erfinder's statement.  In my test setup, I cannot see any other way this could happen unless what he says is correct.  It also invalidates my understanding that you can only induce a voltage, where current must come from a closed-loop resistance via Ohm's Law.
   
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I personally find this a very interesting statement.  I've been working on a device that I named the Lenz Locker Transformer, the objective is to add an alternate flux path for the Lenz flux to take instead of reaching the primary.  I've been testing this device with sharp impulses to get an idea of its inner workings.  One of the things I did that completely surprised me was to wind a pickup coil on this alternate flux path; my expectation is that I would not see any impulse make it's way to this path without a connected circuit on the secondary.  What I discovered was completely opposite.  I actually saw more signal on this pickup coil with the secondary open than I did with it closed.

When you are working with magnetic flux path switching there are many surprises. One of them is when you establish closed magnetic flux path it stays locked into it but still leaks on alternate path. And if you break loop it switches onto alternate flux path then leaks to previous path:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y252LZt9tqw

Cheers!
   
Group: Guest
When you are working with magnetic flux path switching there are many surprises. One of them is when you establish closed magnetic flux path it stays locked into it but still leaks on alternate path. And if you break loop it switches onto alternate flux path then leaks to previous path:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y252LZt9tqw

Cheers!


What interests me the most is that this demonstration is being compared either in word or deed with a circuit where there is no "actual"  closing of the path.........Karl demonstrates that when the path is not closed....air gap....the sought after effect (latching) is not there.  What folks are doing in circuits where the path is open is very different from whats going on in that video.  Also some relate this demonstration to the MEG, also not the same.


Regards
   
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Posts: 331
The gaps or different core material introduce resistance to magnetic flux path and if you have coil over it it can decrease or increase flux path resistance by introducing own magnetic field. That was widely used in magnetic amplifiers on 1950s. The thing is still on same fundamentals but more tricks have to be in place to achieve it without moving parts...
   

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A greater portion of this induced current is being transmitted via a longitudinally operating magnetic field.
I personally find this a very interesting statement.
It would be interesting if a difference could be demonstrated between "longitudinally operating magnetic field" and transversely operating magnetic field.
   
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It would be interesting if a difference could be demonstrated between "longitudinally operating magnetic field" and transversely operating magnetic field.

Yes, and my guess would be it would look like Instantaneous Action at a Distance, which is a whole other world of exploration.
   
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Sorry!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-12, 22:56:45 by wattsup »


---------------------------
   
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Posts: 331
Hi,

Here is another approach to my design:
http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg434787/#msg434787
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTL7Pvtm-3s

The results mean much more than ton of explanations... :)
So far the possibility to self run from generator coils is ahead as seen from possible prolonged spinning of rotor.

P.S> It might be worth to invite MCR to this forum for trolls-free efforts towards same goal... :)

Cheers!
   

Group: Renaissance Man
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Buy me a cigar
Dear Wattsup.

Not a lack of interest, just having some time out. My problem is that I get obsessive, over Christmas whilst I was building the Gary motor I could still be tinkering into the " Wee small hours " !!

Being a carer for my wife, this will not do !!

So, watch this space, as they say.

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Posts: 520
Sorry!
« Last Edit: 2015-02-12, 22:55:35 by wattsup »


---------------------------
   
Group: Guest
This subject is being and has been beat in to the ground, not just here but everywhere, for years.  The interesting thing is it gets attention for a little while and then like all fads its superseded by the next big thing.  Demonstrating this effect doesn't take a degree in particle physics.  We do not need to reinvent the wheel as its been and being suggested.  We need only understand a few basics.  When we comprehend the basics we find that we are not limited to to high inductance, high resistance coils as one authority has pointed out, the coils do not need share a common axis.  We also find that between the rotor and coils there is no need for a magnetic return path.  All things considered the magnetic coupling between the two coils is low.  Stripped of all which has literally blinded us from experiencing the effect as it experiences itself, we see the underlying mechanism, and recognize just how misled we have been.  For the effect to manifest all that is required is the proper orientation of the coil, and connections between coils, and these with relation to the inducing field.  

http://vimeo.com/117820507

I am not saying that whats being discussed and demonstrated doesn't have merit, I am saying why waste time and resources when what we want can be accomplished without all the BS, uh....extra baggage.


Regards
   
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Posts: 331
http://vimeo.com/117820507

The speedup under short circuit over specific speed is well known in experiments. What is missing there is the speedup under short circuit no matter how low initial speed is.
Also in this thread we are talking about switching of magnetic flux where magnet and coil aren't moving and the coil core material is changing size in the path of magnetic flux between magnet and coil and where no matter what you do with coils it does not introduce cogging to initial rotor rotation... Would be nice to see if you can assemble test unit in same way as it is being talked from post #1 of this thread.. ;)

Cheers!
   
Group: Guest
http://vimeo.com/117820507

That's what I'm talking about right there!  Nice demo Erfinder.

Call that reverse drag under load.  Amps too even with those tiny mags.

Just curious though, those big windings, are they heavy insulated wraps, good spacing between conductors?  I ask because I'm very curious as to just how low the self-inductance is.  I'm starting to get it, self-inductance is what is killing us; that's the source of Lenz, just like you said.
   
Group: Guest
The speedup under short circuit over specific speed is well known in experiments. What is missing there is the speedup under short circuit no matter how low initial speed is.
Also in this thread we are talking about switching of magnetic flux where magnet and coil aren't moving and the coil core material is changing size in the path of magnetic flux between magnet and coil and where no matter what you do with coils it does not introduce cogging to initial rotor rotation... Would be nice to see if you can assemble test unit in same way as it is being talked from post #1 of this thread.. ;)

Cheers!


The demonstration was lost on you.  The test unit in test one is a complete waste of time, such a unit I have, the one I showed in the video is superior.  To each his own.


Regards
   
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That's what I'm talking about right there!  Nice demo Erfinder.

Call that reverse drag under load.  Amps too even with those tiny mags.

Just curious though, those big windings, are they heavy insulated wraps, good spacing between conductors?  I ask because I'm very curious as to just how low the self-inductance is.  I'm starting to get it, self-inductance is what is killing us; that's the source of Lenz, just like you said.

.6 ohms @ 13.5mH

Those are the values.  Each bobbin has six wingdings on it,  the individual windings are anti-series connected between the two coils, and then their ends are paralleled.  Ultimately we want high inductance, low resistance, this was what Tesla recommended, from the literature we know why.   In my demo I show that contrary to popular belief the acceleration effect can be demonstrated using low inductance low resistance coils operating at low frequency.  The demo also shows that we don't need a magnetic return circuit like some seem hell bent on having  us believe.  In addition to this its clear to see that real current can be produced, we don't have to fight, trying to squeeze out a few milliamps.  Lets get real about this stuff, we want to power our homes but experiment on a level that won't return us a fraction of a fraction of what we put in.

Self inductance isn't killing anything, I maximize the self inductance of systems I build, I do not minimize its effect (self induction) on the system like those who seek to remove Lenz from the equation.  CEMF is an effect, it is the indication that flux has changed, its magnitude tells us everything we need to know about that amplitude and trajectory of which has just changed.


Regards
   
Group: Guest
Each bobbin has six wingdings on it,  the individual windings are anti-series connected between the two coils, and then their ends are paralleled.  Ultimately we want high inductance, low resistance, this was what Tesla recommended, from the literature we know why.

Self inductance isn't killing anything, I maximize the self inductance of systems I build, I do not minimize its effect (self induction) on the system like those who seek to remove Lenz from the equation.  CEMF is an effect, it is the indication that flux has changed, its magnitude tells us everything we need to know about that amplitude and trajectory of which has just changed.

Okay, I've missed the target here somehow.  Low resistance I understand, high inductance...  You lost me.  I thought to get high inductance you needed lots of turn, hence small wires which ends up being lots of resistance.  So is that what you did, only you did them in chunks (six) that you paralleled together to bring the resistance back down?

Not real clear by what you mean "anti-series".  Does that mean three windings have one polarity and the other three opposite, then all tied together in a fashion that would appear to be neutral?  Essentially three pairs of bucking coils?

We can take this to another thread if you'd like.  I for one certainly would like to know more.
   
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Nice demo Erfinder,

thanks for sharing!

Are the coil layers cross connected between each other so they play a ping pong game between each other?

Luc
   

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Okay, I've missed the target here somehow.  Low resistance I understand, high inductance...  You lost me.  I thought to get high inductance you needed lots of turn, hence small wires which ends up being lots of resistance.
The target is a large L/R ratio (also known as the L/R time constant).  More turns of thinner wire is better because the inductance (L) increases with the square of the number of turns but resistance (R) increases linearly with the length of the wire and number of turns, so more turns yield a better L/R ratio because a parabola (squaring) grows quicker than a line.

Of course more turns also means more parasitic inter-winding capacitance and sometimes that can be a problem.

The L/R ratio is the target because when this analysis is considered, then it immediately becomes apparent that keeping the L/R ratio high, lengthens the L/R time constant in motor circuits and this means that less energy is wasted in the resistance and more energy is transferred to the magnetic field for a longer time ...and more energy is transferred from the magnetic field if you choose to recover it.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-27, 12:56:23 by verpies »
   

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I don't want to deviate from this thread but I did experience this speed up and and amp drop about three years ago. Some of my terminology in this vid is wrong but the meters show what I'm talking about. http://youtu.be/ASbXw3RkAHA I was told at the time it was just the current draw masking the core and to move along.
   
Group: Guest
Nice demo Erfinder,

thanks for sharing!

Are the coil layers cross connected between each other so they play a ping pong game between each other?

Luc

This is a standard unprofessionally wound multifilar coil.  6 wires per coil, fill the bobbin.  I didn't plan anything, neatness of wire was not taken into consideration, just wind on the wire. The two coils are wound in the same direction.  Connections between coils must be + to + or - to - (ANTI-series) versus + to - (Series).  

If you get an itch and want to attempt a replication, here some advice.  Do not use an induction motor as the prime mover, do not use a commutator based motor as the prime mover.  Your prime mover should be a brushless DC machine driven with a pulse width modulated drive circuit set for the lowest possible duty and frequency, this circuit should be designed so as to allow you to capture the collapsing field if possible.  I don't have a control circuit recommendation, use what you can come up with.  

Ping pong between the coils is an interesting way of describing it.....I wouldn't call it such, I find it better to just say that we are trying to establish those conditions found between windings between the coil and rotor. Bucking is natural, we just don't design our circuits so as to take advantage of it.  

Regards
   
Group: Guest
I don't want to deviate from this thread but I did experience this speed up and and amp drop about three years ago. Some of my terminology in this vid is wrong but the meters show what I'm talking about. http://youtu.be/ASbXw3RkAHA I was told at the time it was just the current draw masking the core and to move along.

What you demonstrate is what we find all over the net.  Namely, the effect is associated with a coil of High inductance, and high resistance, the frequency of your setup is also higher, you also have only one coil, it matters little that the coil is bifilar. 

I demonstrate that  with low resistance, low inductance, at low frequency one can generate the same effect, the bifilar aspect is stripped from the individual coil and recombined between a coil pair.  There is much more going on than folks are considering, and its not the job of one or two to spell it all out, you all have to  put your thinking caps.

Thane never demonstrated the effect like I just showed you.  If he did, I never saw that video.  Thane postulates that the coil is behaving like a cap but, in order for it to do this you need high frequency, uh....no, we can make the coil act like a cap (and not just act like a cap, we can convert it into a cap with the proper understanding, such an understanding was patented) at any frequency we want, we just need to rid ourselves of a few firm beliefs which keep us from accomplishing what I am suggesting.  It is not my intention to disrupt this threads direction, however, if its demonstrated that we are spinning our wheels as it were, and things are easier than we have  been led to believe, then why continue along that path?  To me it matters little if you see value in what I am suggesting or not, I'm sharing it and if you see its value you will act, otherwise, you will be left behind. 

It's not that I don't see value in the present discussion, the problem is we know where this leads, and why it hasn't delivered anything of use, review the literature, review the works of those who traveled down this road before us, the list is long!


Regards
   

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Buy me a cigar
This is a standard unprofessionally wound multifilar coil.  6 wires per coil, fill the bobbin.  I didn't plan anything, neatness of wire was not taken into consideration, just wind on the wire. The two coils are wound in the same direction.  Connections between coils must be + to + or - to - (ANTI-series) versus + to - (Series).  

If you get an itch and want to attempt a replication, here some advice.  Do not use an induction motor as the prime mover, do not use a commutator based motor as the prime mover.  Your prime mover should be a brushless DC machine driven with a pulse width modulated drive circuit set for the lowest possible duty and frequency, this circuit should be designed so as to allow you to capture the collapsing field if possible.  I don't have a control circuit recommendation, use what you can come up with.  

Ping pong between the coils is an interesting way of describing it.....I wouldn't call it such, I find it better to just say that we are trying to establish those conditions found between windings between the coil and rotor. Bucking is natural, we just don't design our circuits so as to take advantage of it.  

Regards

Dear Erfinder.

If I have understood you correctly, you're coils are wound " hexfilar " ?
I wonder what we would see if we were to wind with a good quality Litz wire, lots of low resistance in parallel, Hmmm!

Just thinking out loud !  :)

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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