Switched capacitor motor

Author Topic: Switched capacitor motor (Read 58918 times)

Smudge	Switched capacitor motor « on: 2015-08-19, 20:10:21 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 2434	Here is the suggestion for a free-running magnet motor that uses a capacitor to alter the phase of the Lenz reaction, and switched so as to use attraction between magnet and coil for that part of the cycle only where it provides positive torque. Enjoy. Smudge A Permanent Magnet Self2.pdf (25.44 kB - downloaded 479 times.)

Verpies

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #1 on: 2015-08-19, 21:25:32 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-08-19, 20:10:21

When connected to a resistor the coil appears in the magnetic circuit as a "magnetic inductance L_m" obeying mmf=-L_mdΦ/dt, that mmf of course coming from the coil current flowing into the load resistor. The value of L_m is N²/R where N is the number of turns and R is the load resistor.

Let's see how that stacks up against reality when R is set to zero as in a superconducting coil.
If L_m = N²/R then with a superconducting coil L_m = ∞

To me, infinite "magnetic inductance" means that the magnetic flux is frozen through the coil (a fragment of the magnetic circuit in series) and does not vary in time. So far so good...

However, the expression mmf=-L_m(dΦ/dt) is confusing or wrong because when L_m = ∞ then it becomes mmf=-∞(dΦ/dt), which suggests that the mmf reaches infinite levels in response to the slightest change of flux, while in reality the mmf reaches only a level necessary to prevent any change in flux that penetrates that coil, as is shown in this video.

Quote from: Smudge on 2015-08-19, 20:10:21

In AC waveforms that dΦ/dt is a 90 degree phase shift, the reaction current is shifted 90 degrees from the applied flux. This is perhaps more readily understood when the coil is part of a magnetic circuit having sinusoidal flux Φ driven through it.

That other situation, when R>0, is shown in this video, unfortunately I don't see a lag or 90º phase shift between flux penetrating the loop's area and current induced in this loop. That EM simulator and its author (prof. Belcher) earned a lot of credibility with me and other scientists, by their sheer accuracy.

Allcanadian

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #2 on: 2015-08-20, 04:51:02 »

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@verpies

Quote

To me, infinite "magnetic inductance" means that the magnetic flux is frozen through the coil (a fragment of the magnetic circuit in series) and does not vary in time. So far so good...

I had similar thoughts along those lines many years ago. If we could hold a magnetic field in place in time without a proportional input then remove it the work performed in that time cannot be proportional to the input. I then devised what I would call the "big inductor", I tried a 5000' spool of 20 gauge wire but the time constant was still small. So the question remained how do I build a ridiculously large inductor with an extreme time constant?. My answer came in a most unexpected form... I replaced one inductor with a DC motor using the mechanical momentum of the rotor as a substitution for the electrical momentum of an inductor. Yes there are mechanical losses however when compared to I^2R losses they are not unreasonable. Thus I could produce a time constant per se which could be measured in minutes versus milliseconds.

I have found many problems relate to our perceptions of how we think things are supposed to work versus how we can make them work in reality. Many times they do not relate to equations but understanding the qualities of what we want, what we have at our disposal and how we can make it work to get what we want.

AC

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Verpies

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #3 on: 2015-08-20, 07:15:26 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2015-08-20, 04:51:02

I replaced one inductor with a DC motor using the mechanical momentum of the rotor as a substitution for the electrical momentum of an inductor. Yes there are mechanical losses however when compared to I^2R losses they are not unreasonable. Thus I could produce a time constant per se which could be measured in minutes versus milliseconds.

That's pretty clever.
Another way to obtain large time constants is to use an actual HTS like this student of prof. Belcher.

T-1000

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #4 on: 2015-08-20, 09:14:20 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-08-19, 20:10:21

...to alter the phase of the Lenz reaction, and switched so as to use attraction between magnet and coil for that part of the cycle only where it provides positive torque. Enjoy.

Smudge

This video seems is along the way for described intent:
[youtube]HiI22CdBbv4[/youtube]

Just instead of timed capacitor charge and discharge it uses induced current to neutralize Lenz force so the magnets are passing freely in second half of cycle...

Cheers!

Smudge

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #5 on: 2015-08-20, 17:18:55 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-08-19, 21:25:32

Let's see how that stacks up against reality when R is set to zero as in a superconducting coil.
If L_m = N²/R then with a superconducting coil L_m = ∞

To me, infinite "magnetic inductance" means that the magnetic flux is frozen through the coil (a fragment of the magnetic circuit in series) and does not vary in time. So far so good...

However, the expression mmf=-L_m(dΦ/dt) is confusing or wrong

If you look at my paper "Analyzing Transformers in the Magnetic Domain" you will find the derivation of that expression.

Quote

because when L_m = ∞ then it becomes mmf=-∞(dΦ/dt), which suggests that the mmf reaches infinite levels in response to the slightest change of flux, while in reality the mmf reaches only a level necessary to prevent any change in flux that penetrates that coil, as is shown in this video.

But R=0 creates the situation where dΦ/dt=0 so now you have mmf=-∞*0 which is just as crazy. I am happy that R=0 creates the mmf needed to ensure dΦ/dt=0, and that mmf=-L_m(dΦ/dt) is correct for any other value of R. Perhaps this is better put as dΦ/dt=-mmf/L_m which ensures that dΦ/dt=0 when L=∞.

Quote

That other situation, when R>0, is shown in this video, unfortunately I don't see a lag or 90º phase shift between flux penetrating the loop's area and current induced in this loop. That EM simulator and its author (prof. Belcher) earned a lot of credibility with me and other scientists, by their sheer accuracy.

That is not a continuous alternating sinusoidal flux situation so phase shift is meaningless there. If you analyzed the rotating magnet and coil system in the magnetic domain where the coupling between the two appears as a variable reluctance you would find my analysis correct. And the fly in the ointment is that word "continuous" since that represents an un-switched sine wave, not a switched part of a sine wave. In my proposed system the capacitor would be switched onto the coil when the induced voltage is at maximum, so there would be a sudden inrush of current that is undesirable. This could be overcome by having the capacitor pre-charged to that peak voltage, then you find that the capacitor gets discharged, its voltage falling while the current rises and that is indeed the phase shift that I mentioned. However you can now argue that you have supplied energy in the charged capacitor and that needs looking into to see whether the system is really OU.

Smudge

« Last Edit: 2015-08-20, 19:49:33 by Smudge »

Smudge

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #6 on: 2015-08-20, 18:41:24 »

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Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-08-20, 09:14:20

This video seems is along the way for described intent:

Just instead of timed capacitor charge and discharge it uses induced current to neutralize Lenz force so the magnets are passing freely in second half of cycle...
Cheers!

Don't see any induced currents there. As for Roney's magic stator having asymmetrical response I think you will find that horseshoe magnets have the same characteristic. Bring their curved back ends together and there is little force. Bring their pole faces together and get huge force.

Smidge

ion

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #7 on: 2015-08-20, 19:11:01 »

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Smudge

I understand your argument that current will lag voltage in an inductive circuit, however it does take current to charge the capacitor, and this coil would not care if the current drawing device were a resistor capacitor or short circuit.

Do the induced poles have the correct polarity in your schematic drawing?. I thought the induced pole would create a mirror image repulsive force if current was flowing due to the induction and if no current were flowing (open switch) there would be no repulsion or attraction.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding. At any rate, this should be easy to test.

Switched capacitor motor

Switched Capacitor.jpg (56.38 kB, 695x205 - viewed 1109 times.)

Switched capacitor motor

Switched Capacitor Schematic.jpg (37.25 kB, 702x446 - viewed 1055 times.)

« Last Edit: 2015-08-20, 20:51:13 by ION »

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Smudge

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #8 on: 2015-08-20, 20:29:10 »

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ION,

If you imagine the capacitor connected all the time, then consider the AC voltage induced into the coil being across the capacitor, you will find (a) that the voltage is 90 degree phased from the flux, (b) the current is 90 degree phased from that and (c) the current is then in phase with the flux and flowing in a direction to create even more flux. This is simply Lenz with a phase shift. Remember Lenz is not absolute, there is already a 90 degree phase shift between flux and voltage which across a resistive load creates the current. So putting a reactance across the coil can either move the current to be in phase with the flux or in anti-phase, depending on whether that reactance is inductive or capacitive. For many years I thought this needed an inductive load, but having slogged through the phasor diagrams I now believe it should be capacitive. It should be easy to determine by measuring the current and noting its phase relative to the rotor movement. That continuous connection does not create self running, it just shifts the torque waveform and with the reactive load you just get the sort of cyclic cogging torque you would see if there were permeable material inside open circuit coils. The induced poles have the polarity seen in my image, but 180 degrees later the polarity is reversed. Whether switching the capacitor in and out achieves self running is another matter.

Note the omega squared term in the reduction in reluctance. When you consider that reduction compared to the reluctance of the air space inside the coil you can relate things to the inductance of the coil. You then find that the combined reluctance goes to zero at a frequency where the reactance of the capacitor is equal to the reactance of the coil divided by Nagaoka's k factor (this is for single layer coils). X_C=X_L/k So there is some sort of resonance at play here.

Smudge

ion

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #9 on: 2015-08-20, 23:52:05 »

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Ok Then it's on my list of things to try. I think a simple reed switch will probably take care of the switch opening, but if something more exotic is needed, I can arrange for that.

That said do you have any thoughts on switch position vs angle of rotor for 360 degrees? A timing diagram.

« Last Edit: 2015-08-21, 02:35:37 by ION »

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T-1000

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #10 on: 2015-08-21, 09:03:57 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2015-08-20, 18:41:24

Don't see any induced currents there. As for Roney's magic stator having asymmetrical response I think you will find that horseshoe magnets have the same characteristic. Bring their curved back ends together and there is little force. Bring their pole faces together and get huge force.

Smidge

The tin layer around stator magnet on winded isolation layer and makes shorted coil. As soon as the external magnet is passing, it creates current inside which creates opposing magnetic field. This field reacts with the magnetic field from the magnet inside and in the summary you get induced magnetic field neutralized. Same happen with concealed magnetic pole of the magnet. You can test it by making one as per it was shown in:

[youtube]KhY7hHb2l6o[/youtube]

Cheers!

ion

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #11 on: 2015-08-21, 13:55:07 »

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It's turtles all the way down

There is a file and video on this site of Mike's window motor, courtesy of Graham

Direct file download:

~~http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3112.0;attach=19278~~

EDIT: go to post #13 for zipped file attachment

Unzip the file and the video download link is on the first page, schematics follow.

Supposedly free running and charging a capacitor. This uses a shorting coil approach, magnet rotating in a flattened solenoid, somewhat reminiscent of the Joe Newman motor/ generator. Back in 1985 I built a scale model of the Newman motor , about a cubic foot. It used a special shorting commutator.

Regarding the switched capacitor idea, do you think the magnet rotating inside solenoid, as in Mike or Newman would be a better approach than two separate coils.?

From the video, Mike's device seems to work, but who knows.

« Last Edit: 2015-08-22, 02:06:38 by ION »

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lost_bro

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #12 on: 2015-08-21, 22:15:11 »

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Quote from: ION on 2015-08-21, 13:55:07

There is a file and video on this site of Mike's window motor, courtesy of Graham

Direct file download:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3112.0;attach=19278

Unzip the file and the video download is on the first page, schematics follow.

supposedly free running and charging a capacitor. This uses a shorting coil approach, magnet rotating in a flattened solenoid, somewhat reminiscent of the Joe Newman motor/ generator. Back in 1985 I built a scale model of the Newman motor , about a cubic foot. It used a special shorting commutator.

Regarding the switched capacitor idea, do you think the magnet rotating inside solenoid, as in Mike or Newman would be a better approach than two separate coils.?

From the video, Mike's device seems to work, but who knows.

Good day Ion

Seems like there is a problem with the file download:

"The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Is it just me, or is there some trick to this?

take care, peace
lost_bro

ion

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #13 on: 2015-08-21, 22:36:14 »

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Quote from: lost_bro on 2015-08-21, 22:15:11

Good day Ion

Seems like there is a problem with the file download:

"The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you."

Is it just me, or is there some trick to this?

take care, peace
lost_bro

Hi lost_bro

Good to see you here.

Try the attachment here.

Mikes window motor.zip (3532.54 kB - downloaded 340 times.)

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gyula	Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #14 on: 2015-08-21, 23:16:29 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1385	Hi Folks, Here is a direct link to the thread from 2007 on overunity.com forum and the video is attached to the first post by hartiberlin: http://overunity.com/1988/is-this-the-first-selfrunning-overunity-motor-wo-batteries-mikes-motor/msg23445/#msg23445 Gyula

TinselKoala

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #15 on: 2015-08-22, 07:25:41 »

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After reading most of the 65 pages in that thread, it appears to me that nobody has been able to reproduce the "self running" of this "houdini" style motor.

Also, the .zip file above appears to contain some kind of document with a .mht file type. I don't seem to have anything that will open this file. Anybody have any suggestions?

The amazingly poor quality of the .wmv video would not allow us to see if external power is being fed to the motor by thin wires in that video.

Somebody offered 2500 dollars for a live demonstration of the self-runner, by Mike or anyone else. No takers:

http://overunity.com/1988/is-this-the-first-selfrunning-overunity-motor-wo-batteries-mikes-motor/msg26385/#msg26385

Peterae

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #16 on: 2015-08-22, 09:45:00 »

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Hi TK
the .mht opens fine on my windows comp, but don't worry about it as it is the saved version of the 64 pages on OU.com you just read as oer the ou.com link posted above.

Not only could no one replicate it but even Mike could not replicate it,if my memory serves me correct he took it to his science teacher to work it out and they finally unwound the coil to see if they could work out what was special, once the coil was unwound they were never able to rewind a working coil, the suspicion was that there may have been an internal short which disappeared when unwound.

Verpies	Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #17 on: 2015-08-22, 12:50:13 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 4856	Quote from: TinselKoala on 2015-08-22, 07:25:41 Also, the .zip file above appears to contain some kind of document with a .mht file type. I don't seem to have anything that will open this file. Anybody have any suggestions? Internet Explorer can open this .MHT file. Also the direct link to the video referenced in this .MHT file is here.

poynt99

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #18 on: 2015-08-22, 13:31:28 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

The irony of the Mike window motor was that Bhoudini himself thought it was faked by the addition of a battery.

I think the science teacher story was verified, but not the part about it being disassembled, never to work again. Mike did disappear and stopped responding to PM's though.

Mike claimed that the solid state relay, which switched in some boost from one of the coils, was the key.

There was a whole thread on this at Grump's gn0stic forum as well, with Bhoudini himself being a member, if I recall correctly.

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Grumage

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #19 on: 2015-08-22, 18:35:35 »

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Dear All.

I spent the whole of a winter on that one!

Bought all the bits, SS Relay, Hall effect switch but ended up with a single contact drive pulse and 3 contact output from a 1000 turn coil. Ie, all mechanical.

It ran constantly for 3 months with zero battery drain on a 7 Ah LAB. My rotor was made from 6, x 25 x 30 x 40 Neo magnets on an hexagonal SS core. It was probably the closest device that I built!!

It was suggested that a 9 V PP3 had been put inside the gutted case of the SS Relay, if you study the photos against the schematic there does seem to be a connection discrepancy.

Ah well, all that's left of my motor are a few rather heavy Copper coils.

Cheers Grum.

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Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #20 on: 2015-08-22, 19:36:08 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2015-08-22, 18:35:35

Dear All.

I spent the whole of a winter on that one!

Bought all the bits, SS Relay, Hall effect switch but ended up with a single contact drive pulse and 3 contact output from a 1000 turn coil. Ie, all mechanical.

It ran constantly for 3 months with zero battery drain on a 7 Ah LAB. My rotor was made from 6, x 25 x 30 x 40 Neo magnets on an hexagonal SS core. It was probably the closest device that I built!!
,,,
Cheers Grum.

3 months with zero battery drain? hmmmm...
Do you have any photos or videos of how you did this?
Thanks!

PhysicsProf

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #21 on: 2015-08-22, 19:57:38 »

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I visualize an air-core coil (solenoid) with a PM spinning in the middle of the cylinder... Say PM starts 90deg to the axis, then the S pole moves to the right, so the PM becomes parallel with the axis... Does a N pole form at the right extreme of the solenoid? i wonder. (assuming the coil shorted so current is free to flow)

That is, does the current flow "try to oppose" the change in B-flux? or, is the motion of magnet-turning impeded as one might expect from Lenz' law? in which case I'd expect a S pole to form at the right extreme to repel the S pole of the turning magnet.

Cool stuff!

Grumage

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #22 on: 2015-08-22, 20:24:49 »

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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2015-08-22, 19:36:08

3 months with zero battery drain? hmmmm...
Do you have any photos or videos of how you did this?
Thanks!

Dear Steve.

Sorry, no.

That was eight years ago. It took over half an hour just to download that 3 minute video !! I did not have any digital equipment, as such, back then. Still using celluloid film etc.

The device was simple enough though. Two coils in rectangular " Window frame " shape, a run coil of a few hundred turns and a pickup of 1000 turns. I used two separate Brass cams, one single lobe for running and a 3 lobe for pickup. They were carried on the end of the drive shaft and Vernier adjustable in both point close time and dwell time.

The strange thing is though, during it's long distance run my Son who slept in the room above suffered almost continuous lack of sleep until the day I decided to switch it off !! That story is quite often mentioned within the family !!

Cheers Grum.

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gyula

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #23 on: 2015-08-22, 20:56:00 »

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Hi Folks,

All of a sudden, there was a follow-up on Mike's window motor by John Bhudini this July at energeticforum.com, and he wrote two posts.
This is his first post:

May have found it
Ok, sometimes you must walk away from things for a long time and just let things fester in your head. If you look at the circuit diagram Mike posted you will see something that I may have overlooked. I don’t know why I missed it, could have been thinking about something else. When I hooked a small battery in place of mikes ss circuit the motor ran as normal. That is why I came to the conclusion that mike hid a battery in the ss relay. So now back to the circuit, if you look you will see that when the switch is on the two coils make up an Autoformer, this type of device builds voltage without changing the impedance of the driving coil so the driving coil does not see the load of the capacitor the Autoformer works like a basic car spark coil. The only reason I say this is I had a job with some radio circuits
where I had to make this type of transformer to supply the load of the antenna without effecting the transmitter. Amplifiers in the 70’s used these transformers (Mcintosh) you could short the amp out and nothing would happen. I have experimented with this type of transformer and it is possible to build a Window Motor to run like this but you cannot take any power from it, Unity. I know this is late timing but at least I have posted it.
John B

This is his second post:

May have found it
Yes, Unity is good, I just don’t know how I could have missed this, it’s really bugging me. I have done a test with the original motor and if you hook a bridge and a capacitor to the window coil and spin the motor up it charges the cap fast. Now if you pulse the motor with S1 it keeps running for a very long time. The key to it is the transformer as I stated. I could not find a diagram to post what I mean so I must draw it. It is important on how the second part of the coil is hooked up. The polarity must be correct and the timing of the switch. Be back later with drawing.
JB

He has not shown any drawing since then.

To help visualize what he said, Mike's schematic is available either in ION's zip file above or at the overunity.com forum, link is in my Reply #14 above.

I took his posts from this: http://tinyurl.com/o8g2f88 and the second post is 3 posts down from his first one.

Gyula

PhysicsProf

Re: Switched capacitor motor « Reply #24 on: 2015-08-22, 21:05:21 »

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hmmmm... does anyone understand this well enough to back-engineer a drawing? since he "forgot" to post it?

Quote

Quote
The key to it is the transformer as I stated. I could not find a diagram to post what I mean so I must draw it. It is important on how the second part of the coil is hooked up. The polarity must be correct and the timing of the switch. Be back later with drawing.
JB

He has not shown any drawing since then.