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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 154930 times)
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Posts: 79
Not to mention the fact that true OU has not been demonstrated for the Gunderson system, by daisy-chaining or self-looping with excess output power running a load. Gunderson's systems, like all such systems, still require a power supply, and when this is disconnected there is very quickly no more power output.

Show me an electrical system with a true output power at least 1.3 times the input power and I'll show you how to self-loop it and/or daisy chain it so that it can run an external load and does not need a separate power supply after starting.

Dear TK,

You are correct. No matter how promising a new technology may appear (high COP & significant power level) it does not pass the definitive OU test until it can become a self runner and produce much more energy than its weight in the best known battery technology. Graham pretty much described this standard in his presentation.

So really, all we have is a promising technology approach, with not as much detailed information as we would like, that has not passed any test as a genuine OU device.

However, individuals do now have the opportunity to review a new technology (among many) and decide for themselves if it is worth their time and resources to do any further exploration into it. I believe it is.

I also continue to value & appreciate the reviews, comments, ideas, and prespectives that the knowledgable members have taken with their personal time to even consider this subject.

Spokane1
   
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Posts: 79
Dear All,

Here is a simple variation to the logic circuit to generate the Phase B signal for the H-Bridge.

Spokane1
   
Group: Professor
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Posts: 2639
Dear TK,

You are correct. No matter how promising a new technology may appear (high COP & significant power level) it does not pass the definitive OU test until it can become a self runner and produce much more energy than its weight in the best known battery technology. Graham pretty much described this standard in his presentation.

So really, all we have is a promising technology approach, with not as much detailed information as we would like, that has not passed any test as a genuine OU device.

However, individuals do now have the opportunity to review a new technology (among many) and decide for themselves if it is worth their time and resources to do any further exploration into it. I believe it is.

I also continue to value & appreciate the reviews, comments, ideas, and prespectives that the knowledgable members have taken with their personal time to even consider this subject.

Spokane1

Thank you for this frank review and commentary, Spokane1 - and for your work on this (and others!)

While I agree that self-looping is the best way to demonstrate what we are looking for, I don't think its the ONLY way.

For example, with DC input, it is straightforward to measure the input power.
Output power can be measured (in general) by dumping the electrical power into a resistor, placing this in water (actually, a calorimeter - insulation and some stirring etc are needed). 

Thus using a calorimeter with some care, one can measure the output power definitively - without the need for self-looping.  Then one compares Pin to Pout.

In any case, a replication by another independent party is needed for ou demonstration, imo.
   

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Posts: 1885
Spokane1,

i breadboarded the above circuit and combined it with your earlier version containing the synchronous rectifier drive signal which lateron needs to be
(opto-coupler?) isolated, see screenshot below showing the A (yellow), B (blue) and sync rect. (purple) signals.


I cannot seem to  move the purple signal more the left (or right) so it spans the A / B signals, is that intentional, or do i have something wrong?


Thanks,    Itsu
   
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Posts: 79
Spokane1,

i breadboarded the above circuit and combined it with your earlier version containing the synchronous rectifier drive signal which lateron needs to be
(opto-coupler?) isolated, see screenshot below showing the A (yellow), B (blue) and sync rect. (purple) signals.


I cannot seem to  move the purple signal more the left (or right) so it spans the A / B signals, is that intentional, or do i have something wrong?


Thanks,    Itsu

Dear Itsu,

I still have the synchronus diode timer still hooked up, but I haven't looked at the signal to see if there is any changes or interaction with the 3rd 74HC123. In theory the first 74HC123 establishes the overall period. The second 74HC123 determines the delay time and the pulse width of the sync pulse.

Take a look at the breadboard photo above. I show the bottom part of the schematic. If you look on the far right of the schematic you will see that I made a correction by connecting the final output to the inverse pin. I doubt this would have any impact on your inability to adjust the delay time, but shows that circuits always seem to evolve after being drafted.

I would really like to explore this with you, but alas I have to take my wife on vacation to the Oregon coast. These women just don't understand the world we men live in.  I shall jump on it Oct when we get back.

In the mean time I have ordered parts to reproduce the H-Bridge circuit that you built a few weeks ago. I want to see how it works with the transformer configuration I have. I know it is at to low of voltage and operating at to low of a frequency, but it looks like a good start to understand all the various parameters with the care and feeding of H-Bridges. So I shall be putting this whole system together and finding all my errors in the process.

Thanks for the interest in the logic approach.

Spokane1
   

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Spokane1,

keeping your wife happy must be priority 1, Always.

Enjoy your vacation  O0


I will check out the circuit and diagrams, i am sure i will find the problem.

Regards Itsu
   
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Looking into that fast flux change and what that means I think I have done to death the possibility that mass inertia could be playing its part.  Energy stored in the compressed plastic in the "air" gap does not lead to OU.  After creating a laborious math model that simulates the magnetic energy, magnetic forces, the mechanical energy and the electical input/output energy the answer comes out at a COP of 1.00 something, so nothing of interest there.

More interesting is the characteristic of the high frequency ferrite in the top half of the core.  I do know that in the past Graham has used ferrite that has a plot of the real value of mu against frequency that is flat up to near the cut-off point but then exhibits a rise in mu followed by the fall to very low values.  This peak in mu is a form of FMR.  The imaginary value of mu (representing core loss) peaks near this FMR frequency.  He was exploring the possibility of using the rise in real mu as a means of obtaining OU.  I think it possible that he used this material in his upper half.  If so then I think there is a way to get a CW BH loop that is a combination of a non-linear mu near saturation with a fast change of flux.  I'll write this up and post it during the coming week.

Smudge 
   
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Posts: 982
Looking into that fast flux change and what that means I think I have done to death the possibility that mass inertia could be playing its part.  Energy stored in the compressed plastic in the "air" gap does not lead to OU.  After creating a laborious math model that simulates the magnetic energy, magnetic forces, the mechanical energy and the electical input/output energy the answer comes out at a COP of 1.00 something, so nothing of interest there.

More interesting is the characteristic of the high frequency ferrite in the top half of the core.  I do know that in the past Graham has used ferrite that has a plot of the real value of mu against frequency that is flat up to near the cut-off point but then exhibits a rise in mu followed by the fall to very low values.  This peak in mu is a form of FMR.  The imaginary value of mu (representing core loss) peaks near this FMR frequency.  He was exploring the possibility of using the rise in real mu as a means of obtaining OU.  I think it possible that he used this material in his upper half.  If so then I think there is a way to get a CW BH loop that is a combination of a non-linear mu near saturation with a fast change of flux.  I'll write this up and post it during the coming week.

Smudge

Smudge,

As always, I look forward to your paper on this.

pm
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
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Posts: 1885
Still not able to "move" the purple signal (see screenshot in post #553 above) to "cover" the switching of the yellow/blue signals (so move to the left) with the present 1nF capacitor.
I can "move" it all the way to the right covering the "next" switching of the yellow/blue signals by adding extra capacitance (100nF), but don't think that should be needed.

I will await any further comments from Spokane1 on that.


I did use the A / B signals (see the yellow / blue signals again in the above post #553 screenshot) to drive my full H-bridge.
The load on the H-bridge is a 12V / 21W automotiv bulb right now and i had to remove (omit) the outside swinging choke for the MOSFETs to switch and light the bulb.

The signal across the bulb is shown below, so we have a 2.27Khz 12V minus/plus/zero square wave AC signal.
The bulb draws 12V @ 1.3A in this setup.

Regards Itsu
   
Jr. Member
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Posts: 79
Dear Itsu,

Here is how I have my circuit wired to produce the signals shown on the LeCroy.  Some differances between your circuit and mine might be the chips used. I started with some old 74LS123's and then got a new batch of the 74HC123's. Since the old ones worked just fine for the low frequency I was exploring (3 kHz) I didn't see an need to change them out.

I also have a push button installed since I needed it to start the 74LC123 when it was stand alone. The 74LS2123" don't seem to need a kick start. Once I made the connection to the other logic chips I no longer needed the push button.

I also updated all my capacitor values to what is shown in the schematic.

I hope this helps.

Spokane1
   

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Posts: 1885

Thanks Spokane1.

i will check my capacitors and change them accordingly, however, finding a 4.72nF capacitor might be a challenge  ;)

Itsu
   

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Posts: 1885


Capacitors changed according to the above diagram, and the scopeshot adjusted to be similar as yours.
I only put the purple signal where i think it should be (on the phase A/B switchover).
It is a very narrow pulse, so perhaps i need to adjust the 1.5nF can somewhat.

Itsu
   
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