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Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 154496 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
IMHO there isn't anything further to comment on if and until the exact measurement protocol is illustrated. And following that (if it indeed is shown in sufficient detail) no doubt there will be several questions that most likely won't be answered.

In the mean time I would suggest that folks study up on real power vs. imaginary power, and what constitutes an input power source vs. something that is part of the device. Getting this straightened out would be an important technicality to consider before such an exercise took place.

Agreed, especially so the second paragraph.

Itsu: nice work, but I must have missed the claims for gotuluc's circuit.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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I created a 100uH secondary over the 10mH (5 Ohm) now primary.
I made the common Scope Probe ground point to be the top of the 50R resistor and inverted the ch2 (current) channel.

Without a load the voltage / current signal looks like as in screenshot 1

With a 6V / 0.6W incandescent light bulb (glowing dimly) as load to the secondary these signals become as in screenshot 2 (vertical settings changed!)
I am unable to obtain similar signals as in screenshot 1 with this load.

Measuring the load shows the signals as in screenshot 3.
Yellow the voltage across the bulb, green the current throught the bulb, red the math trace yellow x green.
Be aware that the current probe controller was set to 100mA/div. so the reported current and power needs to be taken times 10

The diagram is the updated circuit


Itsu
This is great work, Itsu. The next step, I suppose, would be to create the "synchronous rectifier" which would "hide" the load from the transformer most of the time and only connect it for a small part of the full cycle, just when the peak power occurs. The output of this SR would be used to pump up a capacitor bank. Then you could light up the bulb from the smoothed DC output of the cap bank.


IMHO there isn't anything further to comment on if and until the exact measurement protocol is illustrated. And following that (if it indeed is shown in sufficient detail) no doubt there will be several questions that most likely won't be answered.

In the mean time I would suggest that folks study up on real power vs. imaginary power, and what constitutes an input power source vs. something that is part of the device. Getting this straightened out would be an important technicality to consider before such an exercise took place.

Yes, that's right.  Not only that, but we don't really have enough detailed information about Gunderson's H-Bridge and  Synchronous Diode circuits to be able to proceed intelligently with deconstructing-reconstructing the driver part of the device. Making something that produces the correct pulse train (the breadboard) is really trivial and as verpies says it can be done in several (I'll even say many) ways. I really don't think that "OU" lives in the breadboard, except perhaps by virtue of obfuscation and mismeasurement.



As far as "effortless" switching of the high-power H-bridge goes... I've had some Intersil HIP4080A H-bridge drivers in my box for a while. They are pretty darn sophisticated.

Code: [Select]
The HIP4080A is a high frequency, medium voltage Full Bridge N-Channel FET driver IC, available in 20 lead plastic
SOIC and DIP packages. The HIP4080A includes an input comparator, used to facilitate the “hysteresis” and PWM
modes of operation. Its HEN (high enable) lead can force current to freewheel in the bottom two external power
MOSFETs, maintaining the upper power MOSFETs off. Since it can switch at frequencies up to 1MHz, the HIP4080A
is well suited for driving Voice Coil Motors, switching power amplifiers and power supplies.
HIP4080A can also drive medium voltage brush motors, and two HIP4080As can be used to drive high performance
stepper motors, since the short minimum “on-time” can provide fine micro-stepping capability.
Short propagation delays of approximately 55ns maximize control loop crossover frequencies and dead-times which
can be adjusted to near zero to minimize distortion, resulting in precise control of the driven load.
   

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Agreed, especially so the second paragraph.

Itsu: nice work, but I must have missed the claims for gotuluc's circuit.


Hi Ion,

no claims from Luc, he just managed to replicate the scope signals from Graham Gunderson's presentation with a simple setup.
I am trying to replicate Luc using a similar simple setup, but i only managed to "kind of" replicate Luc's signals under "no load" up till now.


Guess i have to create the "synchronous rectifier" which would "hide" the load from the transformer most of the time like Tinselkoala mentioned.

Itsu
   
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Hi Ion,

no claims from Luc, he just managed to replicate the scope signals from Graham Gunderson's presentation with a simple setup.
I am trying to replicate Luc using a similar simple setup, but i only managed to "kind of" replicate Luc's signals under "no load" up till now.


Guess i have to create the "synchronous rectifier" which would "hide" the load from the transformer most of the time like Tinselkoala mentioned.

Itsu

Seems to me that if you edge triggered a timer that started when the small "trigger" pulse went high and adjusted its  time to time out at the start of the next cycle, that would be the "time element" to pull off any extra energy off the output transformer.  The "Q" output would turn on a FWBR of a ultra high speed, fast recovery diodes like the 1N4454 or better, Straight forward. Not quite as efficient as GG's circuit but if it is really OU, would work.   See representative schematic attached.

Ben K4ZEP
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Yes, that's right.  Not only that, but we don't really have enough detailed information about Gunderson's H-Bridge and  Synchronous Diode circuits to be able to proceed intelligently with deconstructing-reconstructing the driver part of the device. Making something that produces the correct pulse train (the breadboard) is really trivial and as verpies says it can be done in several (I'll even say many) ways. I really don't think that "OU" lives in the breadboard, except perhaps by virtue of obfuscation and mismeasurement.
My only interest are the power measurements, and I'm hoping that all those discussing them can and will be on the same page in terms of real/imaginary power and what constitutes a power source vs. being "part of the device".

At present we are not in agreement.
   
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My only interest are the power measurements, and I'm hoping that all those discussing them can and will be on the same page in terms of real/imaginary power and what constitutes a power source vs. being "part of the device".

At present we are not in agreement.

I'm a little confused by your statement above and could use some clarification for my own sake. Would you please expand your thoughts on this in reference to say my MEI circuit previously posted?

Edit: No need to respond! I read your post on OU dot com and I think that explains it.

Thanks,
pm

   
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It's turtles all the way down
Has anyone read this book ?

http://grahamgunderson.com/ou/

Maybe it contains a basic philosophy how to proceed, and perhaps the basic circuit, as it seems to claim in the advert.

Quote
"A REAL OVERUNITY TRANSFORMER DEMONSTRATED TO AN AUDIENCE AND DETAILS ON HOW TO REPLICATE "

Note the word "details"

Comes with a 100% money back guarantee if not satisfied. How can you lose.

It is one of a collection of books being sold at johnxxxxxx.net

hint: change the xxxxxx's to something that sounds like "houdini"

I realize current printing is from the conference last year, but will probably be revised soon to include the  most recent conference.

« Last Edit: 2016-07-31, 15:48:06 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Meanwhile, thanks to K4zep for the oscillator details, here's the revised/corrected wiring for U7, the 74HC123 monostable multivibrator configured as the master oscillator for the Gunderson breadboard "Simplified Presentation Logic Wiring" diagram that Spokane1 drew out for us.

When I first built it according to Spokane1's diagram I had to feed it with an external clock signal to get the system to make pulses, and one of the pots on U7 didn't have any effect. Using this revised wiring it is now self-contained, with the frequency and duty cycle pots both working and the approximate ranges indicated on the drawing. I've put in the actual values of the timing components I wound up using to get the ranges shown.

(Also posted at O U dot com.)
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I'm a little confused by your statement above and could use some clarification for my own sake. Would you please expand your thoughts on this in reference to say my MEI circuit previously posted?

Edit: No need to respond! I read your post on OU dot com and I think that explains it.

Thanks,
pm
Part one of the discussion is about whether the H-Bridge input should be measured in GG's setup. No one other than myself and TK have weighed in on that (AFAIK), but I have made my argument, and as far as I am concerned it is a no-brainer; the input power must be measured after the H-Bridge in this case.

Part two involves the issue of real vs. imaginary power. I posed the question about being able to measure real power from a non-OU device that outputs a sine wave where its current and voltage are precisely 90º out of phase. I believe that you, tinman, and TK have all stated that yes it is possible. ION and myself have stated the contrary. Obviously one side must be correct, and the other not.

I'd be happy to see a simulation supporting your assertion. :)
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Part one of the discussion is about whether the H-Bridge input should be measured in GG's setup. No one other than myself and TK have weighed in on that (AFAIK), but I have made my argument, and as far as I am concerned it is a no-brainer; the input power must be measured after the H-Bridge in this case.

Part two involves the issue of real vs. imaginary power. I posed the question about being able to measure real power from a non-OU device that outputs a sine wave where its current and voltage are precisely 90º out of phase. I believe that you, tinman, and TK have all stated that yes it is possible. ION and myself have stated the contrary. Obviously one side must be correct, and the other not.

I'd be happy to see a simulation supporting your assertion. :)

I am in agreement with Poynt with the exceptions noted below, i.e. the H bridge and associated drive circuitry represents a power function generator, and since the DUT is the transformer, to vet just the transformer, we do not need to include the drive circuit power dissipation.

 Later, in the real world practical system, we could include all losses including drive circuitry i.e if we were claiming OU for a black box system that took pure DC in / DC out. Gunderson's claim is for an OU transformer, not a system, so in my mind that is the first DUT. The synchronous rectification may or may not be included. This depends on whether it's role is simply rectification or some other interaction that helps to produce the claimed OU effect.

If the claim is made that the H bridge interacts with the transformer in such a way due to feedback from the transformer to the drive circuitry or the H bridge itself that sustains the OU effect, and that OU effect would not be possible with an equivalent benchtop power function generator, then of course we must include the circuitry including H bridge. Then it becomes an OU system, of which the transformer is one component.

Do I understand the question? What are the claims? Perhaps some of the confusion stems from G.G.'s mistitled device "OU Transformer".
« Last Edit: 2016-07-31, 23:43:27 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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Seems to me that if you edge triggered a timer that started when the small "trigger" pulse went high and adjusted its  time to time out at the start of the next cycle, t
His lab generator has 2 channels and one can be triggered from the other in a pulse burst mode so he does not even need to wire a monostable, nor an astable to generate these pulses.  All adjustable digitally and versatily .
   
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Part one of the discussion is about whether the H-Bridge input should be measured in GG's setup. No one other than myself and TK have weighed in on that (AFAIK), but I have made my argument, and as far as I am concerned it is a no-brainer; the input power must be measured after the H-Bridge in this case.

Part two involves the issue of real vs. imaginary power. I posed the question about being able to measure real power from a non-OU device that outputs a sine wave where its current and voltage are precisely 90º out of phase. I believe that you, tinman, and TK have all stated that yes it is possible. ION and myself have stated the contrary. Obviously one side must be correct, and the other not.

I'd be happy to see a simulation supporting your assertion. :)

OK, somehow I missed the non-OU qualification when I submitted my MEI example.

pm
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Is your MEI OU?  :D
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
What does your sim result of the MEI say?

Is the circuit running at 3MHz as per the scope yellow channel? If so, then the 4" scope leads themselves are going to introduce significant inductance in your measurement path, and that often spells trouble.
   

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
What does your sim result of the MEI say?

Is the circuit running at 3MHz as per the scope yellow channel? If so, then the 4" scope leads themselves are going to introduce significant inductance in your measurement path, and that often spells trouble.

May I respectfully disagree with that thought?  I am a ham radio operator and have regularly used equipment that operates in the 3 to 4 MHZ range.  The wave length for a 3MHZ signal is approximately 80 meters.  I really don't think a 4" scope lead is going to have much of an impact at that frequency.


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
May I respectfully disagree with that thought?  I am a ham radio operator and have regularly used equipment that operates in the 3 to 4 MHZ range.  The wave length for a 3MHZ signal is approximately 80 meters.  I really don't think a 4" scope lead is going to have much of an impact at that frequency.
Ground lead and probe leads can add significant ringing when taking measurements, especially on transient signals. DUT wiring, especially from the CSR will have significant effects on a current measurement not only from phase effects, but from reactance as well, throwing off not only the phase relationship between the voltage and current measurements, but the CVR value can be artificially increased from its actual value. Sometimes the probe cable itself can become susceptible to noise pickup. Handling the cable of a current or voltage probe while monitoring changes on the scope can reveal these effects.

Once one ventures into above 1MHz territory, the game changes quite a bit. At 3MHz, accurate power measurements will be a real challenge (even with a current probe).
   
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His lab generator has 2 channels and one can be triggered from the other in a pulse burst mode so he does not even need to wire a monostable, nor an astable to generate these pulses.  All adjustable digitally and versatily .

Agreed!
Ben K4ZEP
   
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All,

I'm treating this as simply a R&D adventure.  Going to build what I can, knowing what I know
and try to find the "source" of the energy if there is one and the go from there.  With my junk box,
my power supplies, etc, investing maybe $150. bucks.  I'm sure I'll let some expensive smoke out
of some little innocent parts but that's the way I learn.  We have a lot of clues, pictures, advice,
enough to give it a shot!

We can talk till the cows come home exploring the finer points of instrumentation but until we
have a "best guess device" to experiment with, we are as we say in the south, "running around, making a lot of noise and throwing
dust in the air" or really doing nothing.

There are those that "do" and there are those that BS, I'm in the "do" group. We have a lot of "doers" here! it will be interesting to see what comes out of our endeavors. Most of the "doers" have been at this for years and understand instrumentation" and the vulgarities therein!  For the newer experimenters
on the list you have a steep learning curve in building and instrumentation.  You will smile looking back at this in years to come!
If I don't find anything, so what?  If I can't find that elusive source of "excess" power, been there done that before and still enjoyed it!

Parts are in the mail, from several sources.  It will take time, several weeks but what an interesting way to start the week.  I'm looking forward to another
whack at this OU "thing".....

Ben K4ZEP
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
What's "BS" to some, is "thinking things through before diving in" to others. I'm in this group, and not ashamed to admit it.
   
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What's "BS" to some, is "thinking things through before diving in" to others. I'm in this group, and not ashamed to admit it.

Morning P99,

Thinking before diving is good, but eventually you gotta dive in!  When I see page after page after page of "thinking", it becomes BS to me.
Personally, I have been thinking on this for years already!  I'm just thinking the gun has sounded, time to dive!

Ben K4ZEP
   
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Poynt,

I'll respond to your questions in one reply if you don't mind.

First yes, I think certain of my MEI circuits taken in their context are OU. My opinion comes from hundreds of bench experiments and tests including more failures than successes. If you or anyone else disagrees, then prove my test results are incorrect with bench results. I've given in the true spirit of open source all the needed info for the circuits to be replicated and I don't mind if I'm found to be in self delusion.

LtSpice simulation of the circuits does not yield OU.

In regards to the scope probes, they are rated at 10Meg with 3.9pfd capacitance.  The only 4" ground leads used are on the voltage probe measurements and not on the CSR. The probe used on the CSR has the ground lead and squeeze probe removed and a small Tek supplied spring ground clip attached that is designed for RF probing.  The typical inductance of the Caddock MP-820 series CSR used is 10nH at .2" from the body.  No reliance is given to the AM503/A6302 amp/probe combo as it is used only for comparison.

Yes I have experienced probe cable placement variations particularly with the Tek current probes and amp connections to the scope. Not so much if any variations with the Tek TPP0500B probes.

In summary, as long as I believe these circuits are OU, I will continue to search for solutions to provide a prime source that will apply the negative energy to a DC source. It was my goal in posting these circuits that some clever individual would come with a solution but if these circuits are not OU, then all is in vain.

pm
   
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Ben
The water looks cold ...I always was a chicken about that , Grew Up in the NE USA and we had a chance as kids to move to warm and sunny
southern California,  my brothers and I spent most of our young lives griping about never getting there .

years went by, and one day we took a trip to see our Kid brother in Los Angeles   and went down to the beach for a swim ...
my younger brother ran down Jumped in popped up and  yelled a curse to our parents for Denying us such Nirvana ..

without hesitation I gave it the Big Brother "all in" cannonball...

felt like ice picks at every point in My Body...COLD !! :D

came up from that ICY shockwave to see My half frozen Kid brother on the beach laughing hysterically at my suffering and offering up praises to our parents for keeping us in the NE USA
where at least we could swim in the summertime...

Ben
while I have great appreciation and respect for Poynt and all who crunch the numbers here and elsewhere,

your enthusiasm is contagious ,I wish I had your skills and equipment ...I would jump right in too
but I am keeping busy with another open source project where I do have the skills and tools .
the work of Rob Mason [member Evolvingape here]

@ Partzman
we must investigate this further .. and perhaps see what you are seeing on the bench which does not manifest in a Simulator  !!
thx for sharing

with respect and gratitude
Chet K

   

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Buy me a cigar
Dear All.

This isn't my area of expertise as most know.... I have just read a post TK made at OU.Com regarding the synchronous rectifier. Is there a possibility of the drive signal being added to the output? Are there semiconductors available that are fully isolated?

As I see it a fully closed system can only achieve 100% efficiency. Tesla used mechanical interrupters on many of his devices effectively allowing the system to be both open and closed at the right point in time.

Tying everything down at once puts the whole device in a single dimension, may be by allowing it to float separately is where the " magic " is ?

Ok it reads daft.... But I know what I'm trying say.   :)

Cheers Grum.



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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Thinking before diving is good, but eventually you gotta dive in!
Not necessarily. That is the whole point of thinking it through first. ;)

Quote
When I see page after page after page of "thinking", it becomes BS to me.
Each to his own. Good luck with your experiments.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
in the past I would dive right in and start building, only to find the lake was full of crocodiles and snakes (replace with swindlers and fraudsters). I did my due diligence painfully after the dive.

Now I am more cautious, and do a lot of research on the background and integrity of the presenter.

Due diligence in researching the whole picture, not just the hardware and claims will save you lots of time, disappointment and heartache.

If you have an infinite amount of time, disregard the due diligence part and by all means, dive right in.

For me time, is short and I have to choose my endeavors with care and forethought.

As Poynt said :  "each to his own", and as an added note, be careful not to confuse discussion or points of view by thoughtful and experienced individuals with BS.

Regards, ION

« Last Edit: 2016-08-01, 17:31:49 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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