PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2020-08-09, 15:53:27
News: Check out the Benches; a place for people to moderate their own thread and document their builds and data.
If you would like your own Bench, please PM an Admin.
Most Benches are visible only to members.

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ... 23
Author Topic: Graham Gunderson Energy conference High COP demonstration  (Read 157765 times)

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2911
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.

Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?
   
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1180
What do you make of that?

Smudge


If the input power was 0.000 Watts, why did it still have to be connected to the power supply in order to keep running?

What do I make of that? How about "measurement error"? Is anyone willing to consider that the measurements are in error?


Yes, show me any device with electrical inputs and outputs that _truly_ produces a COP of at least 1.3 and I will show you how to self-loop it so that it does NOT need to be connected to any external power supply, once started.  If it uses "0.000 Watts input" that makes it even easier. I've stated this many times and I state it again.

Oddly enough ... not a single claimant has ever contacted me to see if I can really do it. Why do you suppose that is?

TK,

I think the measurements are more than likely correct, but the issue IMO is where the measurements are taken. Without any schematic to reference it is pure speculation on my part but from the scope traces and comments made, we see a device with reactive input and resistive output and it is at these points that the measurements were taken. 

So, if I am correct in my overall view of this device, what Graham has disclosed is only part of the story as the generating means that produces the input sine waveform must be able to return the so-called negative energy back to the DC source that produces the sine waveform. This is required for the overall device to be OU and for any attempted looping to be successful. At the operating frequency range of 20kHz-50kHz this is not an impossibility but I don't believe the demonstration device included such circuitry. However, this is again speculation on my part.

The apparent sensitivity of the device is also a problem for looping IMO as even though it operates in relatively medium frequencies, it seemingly has certain characteristics of a device operating at much higher frequencies.

pm 
   
Group: Ambassador
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3392
Just an update to All and Spokane
Just hung up with Stefan H from OU.com
He is trying to sort out a proper and respectful path
At his forum for this with the Mentioned above moderator??

I am traveling around these next few days ,and staying on top of this will Be a challenge.

To mention
Stefan considers Graham an old friend

Once the noise can be quieted and the discussion taken more respectfully over there
we should be able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot less bandwidth at all the groups.

Respectfully
Chet K
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 79
  Mark also noted,
Two things -
1.  My guess at this point is that the "magic" in Graham's device is not something in that particular core he used, that is, I would encourage replication efforts even if that particular core is not readily available.

2.  What is this device by E.V. Gray?  sounds interesting.

Dear PhysicsProf,

Drop me an email to mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I shall send you more than you want to read on the subject of E.V. Gray.

Spokane1
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 329
Interesting is that some time ago I planned to build similiar device but working at 50Hz. It would be much easier if you follow my advice and try with a normal iron core transformers. It is a saturable converter kind  O0
   

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2578
Everyman decries immorality
Just an update to All and Spokane
Just hung up with Stefan H from OU.com
He is trying to sort out a proper and respectful path
At his forum for this with the Mentioned above moderator??

I am traveling around these next few days ,and staying on top of this will Be a challenge.

To mention
Stefan considers Graham an old friend

Once the noise can be quieted and the discussion taken more respectfully over there
we should be able to get a lot more accomplished in a lot less bandwidth at all the groups.

Respectfully
Chet K

Your premise to proceed is fundamentally flawed.

If you require a public audience for inspiration from an anonymous it is a valid path. If you wish to disclose a viable theory or working prototype it is a viable path.

If you need to further develop R&D a private thread on this forum offers that facility.

Anything else is grandstanding for a reason.

I predict this is the path that will be chosen due to 'wriggle room': "If you wish to disclose a viable theory or working prototype it is a viable path."

 ;D


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2775
Mark - done.  Thanks again.  Pls let me know if there's anything I can do to help. 
Good work out there in Spokane!

Question - is there a VIDEO of Graham's presentation at the conference?
If so - when available?

I suggest that someone SELL this video for Graham - making sure that he gets the proceeds.  I'd buy it!
Maybe a short trailer on Youtube to generate interest.

Also, are you guys thinking about crowd-funding?  I've done 3 or 4 projects funded for people, using YouCaring.
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 79
Someone mentioned that not only has Gunderson measured 0W input, but at times the input power went negative. What immediately pops into my mind is that if he was measuring the input power properly to begin with with all probe polarities correct, the input power measurement should be negative anyway.

Would someone in-the-know be so kind as to draw out a simple block diagram of the input source, device, and output load, along with the measurement probe positions? If no one knows, perhaps Graham himself would be open to providing such a diagram (it wouldn't give away any secrets so why not?)?

Perhaps this will help

Spokane1
« Last Edit: 2016-07-23, 00:47:49 by Spokane 1 »
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 79
Mark - done.  Thanks again.  Pls let me know if there's anything I can do to help. 
Good work out there in Spokane!

Question - is there a VIDEO of Graham's presentation at the conference?
If so - when available?

I suggest that someone SELL this video for Graham - making sure that he gets the proceeds.  I'd buy it!
Maybe a short trailer on Youtube to generate interest.

Also, are you guys thinking about crowd-funding?  I've done 3 or 4 projects funded for people, using YouCaring.

Dear PhysicProf

The whole purpose of the EE Conference is to produce and then sell these lectures in a DVD download for $20 - $40. Aaron Murakami is the publisher and puts out one of these every couple of weeks. He has a vote as to which lecture should be available first. I think is was a toss up between Graham and Eric Dollard - last time I checked.

These lectures are heavily advertised at:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20199-energy-conference-graham-gunderson-2.html

so far I haven't seen Grahams's July 9  presentation come out.

The Lecturer gets 10% of the gross every month. There is not a whole lot of money to be made from these sales.


Graham hasn't mentioned crowd funding and I kind of doubt he will consider it for several months. He has spent 15 years looking for this phenomena and he is going to play with it. He is pretty well set up with the equipment and supplies that Mark Gobles gave him several years ago. However if he needs something outside of his present inventory like Litz wire or more of those Cree SiC FETS, then he is going to have to save for awhile. I have a huge inventory of 40's to 60's electronics, but there is little there that he can use.

Graham hasn't asked for any money (that I know of). But if you sent him a dozen of those expensive CREE SiC 1.2 kV 90 AMP Power Switching FETS I'm sure he would smile from ear to ear and you would have his gratitude. Perhaps you might know how he could get an institutional discount from DigiKey or Mouser. Other than Litz wire and  some 6" x 8" x 1" High Quality Barium Ferrite PM's (for his Sweet VTA work) I'm not aware of anything specific he is short of right now. Next week could be a different story.

Spokane1
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2911
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Very nice Spokane1. Obviously you've made a few diagrams in your time.  ;)

One thing that sticks out immediately, is the logic controller feed to the output driver chips (the stage before the output storage caps). I would strongly urge Graham to measure the power being delivered by that feed to make sure it isn't adding significant power to the output.

The other alarm bell that is going off for me is the fact that that same output driver stage has 3 power supplies in it. They too could indirectly be contributing power to the load.

There could indeed be significant power being sourced by the logic controller and the power supplies I mentioned above, but determining if a significant portion of that power is getting to the output could be tricky.

If they are sourcing only milliwatts of power, then obviously they are not an issue. However, if the measured power is significant relative to the output power, then further investigation should ensue.

It would be nice to see detailed input power traces on the scope, and how the power was being computed (no. of cycles, MEAN, etc.). The output power measurement could be getting skewed by what I mentioned above, but the input power measurement seems more interesting since it apparently can go to 0W. I've seen that before and it was attributed to parasitic wiring inductance that was not compensated for. Once corrected, all was back to normal.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2911
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Regarding the input power measurement and a potential source of error...
   
Group: Guest
Really? You cannot possibly be serious. I can't believe that people are actually falling for this. Look at all the power supplies that ARE NOT BEING MEASURED but which are providing power to the apparatus.

The proper locations for measuring the INPUT POWER are shown in my markup of Spokane1's block diagram.

Power supplied to _all components_ that are required for the performance of the entire apparatus _must_ be considered as comprising the input power!


Sheesh. No wonder nobody will answer my question: If it draws 0.000 W INPUT, why can't it be disconnected from the power supply and keep running? Now we know the real answer. The "0.000 W" and the other "input power" measurements are not the _actual_ input power to the apparatus! Even if they are correct, which they almost certainly are not, they ignore the power supplied to other components without which the apparatus would not work at all.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 29
Really? You cannot possibly be serious. I can't believe that people are actually falling for this. Look at all the power supplies that ARE NOT BEING MEASURED but which are providing power to the apparatus.

The proper locations for measuring the INPUT POWER are shown in my markup of Spokane1's block diagram.

Power supplied to _all components_ that are required for the performance of the entire apparatus _must_ be considered as comprising the input power!


Sheesh. No wonder nobody will answer my question: If it draws 0.000 W INPUT, why can't it be disconnected from the power supply and keep running? Now we know the real answer. The "0.000 W" and the other "input power" measurements are not the _actual_ input power to the apparatus! Even if they are correct, which they almost certainly are not, they ignore the power supplied to other components without which the apparatus would not work at all.

Good Morning Mark, TK, P99 and all.

It appears that a lot of serious experimenters are here!!! This is very good!

The excellent questions about the power measurements are all point on. Perhaps
at this early conceptual stage with the investigation of this device it would be wise to to note
that Graham was showing the concept of a transformer that in itself appears to have
excess power producing capacity. He himself was not satisfied with the device and
is continuing to work on it as shown in pictures.

Let us assume that the measurements shown of and around
the transformer itself do show excess output internally. That is a good first step. 
As power supply losses appear to not have been included in
the calculations, and as all measurements can be questioned, perhaps 
closing the loop is the only way to show that this type of transformer
is a self contained power producing device.  That is, not only powering itself but
providing excess power as a gift to the world.

It would appear that Graham has gone to great lengths in his output power supply to work at a high
as efficiency as possible by the switching circuitry using FETs as rectifiers, snubbers, very high speed isolaters, etc. as can
be gleaned from the pictures.  That was probably his first steps when looking at the device overall and down the road. 
Unfortunately we do not have schematics of this device! As an experimental builder, this drives me up the wall.
But, here, we have been shown a dream, with excellent power measurements up to a point.  I think everyone here
can take these ideas and run with it and see where we go. All of us has had a "EURIKA" moment (I know I have) that upon
further measurements turned the "Eurika" into crow we had to eat.  But we keep flailing away! 

On Overunity.Com page 4, comment 53, gotoluc has shown a waveform very similar to Grahams with description as to how he produced it.
Perhaps he can give us more insight into his circuitry etc.  Anything at this point would be helpful.

Respectfully to all,
Ben K4ZEP


 
« Last Edit: 2016-07-23, 13:44:58 by K4zep »
   
Group: Guest
Well, if Gunderson wants to show that the transformer itself is OU, then perhaps the _output_ measurement should be made right at the actual output of the transformer itself, just as the "input" power is being measured right at the input to the transformer. And special care should be taken to account for all phase differences and shifts so that the actual _real_ power is reported, not some mishmash of skewed probe timings, reactive and apparent power.

The thread on OU dot com is bringing up some other critical issues. If I am reading correctly, now we are told that the Hall Effect current probe used on the "input" is positioned very close to the transformer structure itself. This means that it is exposed to external magnetic fields, both DC from the permanent magnets and AC from the oscillating current. This will screw up the accuracy of the Hall sensor. These probes need to be operated so that the _only_ magnetic field that they can possibly sense is that induced by the current in the wire they are actually trying to measure.

They also have a significant delay in response, which can be enough to cause incorrect results in power calculations due to a phase shift. And this problem is worse at high frequencies. High-end digital scopes have a "probe skew" or de-skew function that compensates for the time delay in active probes (diff. voltage probes and Hall effect current probes both suffer from this issue). But the user has to actually use this function properly! This is another reason why Hall effect current probe readings should be compared to readings taken at the same time by another method, such as Vdrop across a current-viewing resistor. I have demonstrated in a video how improper use, or rather non-use, of probe deskewing can produce "overunity" measurements from a pulse motor setup.

Also, the frequency response of the probe has to be considered, as fast risetime spikes may not be accurately picked up by the probe, whereas a passive voltage probe across a CVR can pick them up. Spikes can contain a lot of power, or a little power. In either case it is important not to inadvertently filter them out of your power measurements by not understanding the limitations and proper usage of active probes.  I have also demonstrated in a video how a small amount of inductance (just 3 inches of wire) can make a large difference in measurements made using current probes on a signal that is naturally spiky.


Gotoluc has described his coil-capacitor setup used to produce his waveforms on the other forum. It is very simple, just a tank circuit made of an ordinary 10 mH ferrite-cored coil in parallel with an appropriate capacitor, tuned so as to give a single cycle response to the 33 percent duty-cycle of the stimulating signal from his function generator.

Is his setup overunity? Of course we know that "real OU" doesn't show up on scope waveforms. Does it?   >:-) 

Certainly, self-looping would be a powerful demonstration of an OU effect, much better than any instrumental measurements. But with all those power supplies in Gunderson's circuit, and just a car taillight bulb's worth of power on the output ... it ain't gonna happen.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2911
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Well, if Gunderson wants to show that the transformer itself is OU, then perhaps the _output_ measurement should be made right at the actual output of the transformer itself, just as the "input" power is being measured right at the input to the transformer. And special care should be taken to account for all phase differences and shifts so that the actual _real_ power is reported, not some mishmash of skewed probe timings, reactive and apparent power.
Agreed.

And the wiring should be cleaned up so that it is just a short run between the h-bridge and transformer.
   
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3639
It's turtles all the way down
Poynt, partzman and TK have diligently explained the nuances of careful measurement techniques based on their many years of bench time performing and debugging those kinds of tests.

I understand that there are many  "faithers" that have a deep disdain for people who like to use good measurement techniques. Then, they must remember that Graham's claims are solely based on measurement with a high end o'scope and a Clark Hess

As such his measurements are only as good as the limits of the equipment and the skill in using such, as has been pointed out.

So, faith based beliefs regarding the validity of the OU claims need to be "brought down to earth" with at least two other alternative measuring techniques, in parallel with the use of the high end o'scope and it's math calculations and the Clark Hess, as a double and triple check. This would then be good science.

Unfortunately. since Graham is holding some of the "secret sauce" cards to his chest it may not be possible to accurately replicate his claims. That he has disassembled the device only adds to the confusion.

Ben and Mark, welcome to OUResearch forum.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Renaissance Man
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2211


Buy me a cigar
Dear All.

With regard to the output after the rectification and smoothing capacitors surely this could be a simple VxI measurement? The load is virtually resistive being an incandescent lightbulb.

I have always favoured ION's solution though, the load being a suitable high wattage dissipation resistance with a thermocouple attached, no " funny " waveforms can affect that arrangement. I have been toying with an idea of attaching the tip of one of those $/£ store digital thermometers to a partially drilled Aluminium cased 25 W resistor. Calibration would be fairly simple just VxI.

Am I being too simple or just pure simple?  :)

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 29
Poynt, partzman and TK have diligently explained the nuances of careful measurement techniques based on their many years of bench time performing and debugging those kinds of tests.

I understand that there are many  "faithers" that have a deep disdain for people who like to use good measurement techniques. Then, they must remember that Graham's claims are solely based on measurement with a high end o'scope and a Clark Hess

As such his measurements are only as good as the limits of the equipment and the skill in using such, as has been pointed out.

So, faith based beliefs regarding the validity of the OU claims need to be "brought down to earth" with at least two other alternative measuring techniques, in parallel with the use of the high end o'scope and it's math calculations and the Clark Hess, as a double and triple check. This would then be good science.

Unfortunately. since Graham is holding some of the "secret sauce" cards to his chest it may not be possible to accurately replicate his claims. That he has disassembled the device only adds to the confusion.

Ben and Mark, welcome to OUResearch forum.

Hi Ion and all,

Good to be here too! I had backed off OU research for quite a few months but this new development has stoked the old fires one more time!  Now have to stay
loose and try not to get totally obsessed with it and burn out again.

You can instrument, measure till your red in the face.  It all boils down to:  Will the device power itself and will it also output excess power.
Actually, I would be jumping up and down if it just self powered!  All the measurement tools are just that, tools!  They can guide or point in a direction or give
some indication if what you are doing is better or worse than your last experiment, but again, their just tools.  I'm glad I am doing this for fun and the pure enjoyment of doing it. 
Grahams device might not be the final answer but it is a step in the right direction me thinks.  More power to him and his having the guts to show it to the world.
Lets encourage him as every experimenter needs encouragement.  It's not how many times you find something that does work, its how many times something you found
(a theory) that doesn't work but you keep plugging away!

Or, how many simulations have you see for "Besslers Wheel" that work?  Then how many Bessler wheels have you seen working. ;)  Sorry, Off Topic!

Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP

   
Newbie
*

Posts: 29
Dear All.

With regard to the output after the rectification and smoothing capacitors surely this could be a simple VxI measurement? The load is virtually resistive being an incandescent lightbulb.

I have always favoured ION's solution though, the load being a suitable high wattage dissipation resistance with a thermocouple attached, no " funny " waveforms can affect that arrangement. I have been toying with an idea of attaching the tip of one of those $/£ store digital thermometers to a partially drilled Aluminium cased 25 W resistor. Calibration would be fairly simple just VxI.

Am I being too simple or just pure simple?  :)

Cheers Grum.

Hi Grum,

 For a quick and moderately accurate measurement, it would work like a champ, but response would be sluggish! 

Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP
   
Group: Guest
Poynt, partzman and TK have diligently explained the nuances of careful measurement techniques based on their many years of bench time performing and debugging those kinds of tests.

I understand that there are many  "faithers" that have a deep disdain for people who like to use good measurement techniques. Then, they must remember that Graham's claims are solely based on measurement with a high end o'scope and a Clark Hess

As such his measurements are only as good as the limits of the equipment and the skill in using such, as has been pointed out.

So, faith based beliefs regarding the validity of the OU claims need to be "brought down to earth" with at least two other alternative measuring techniques, in parallel with the use of the high end o'scope and it's math calculations and the Clark Hess, as a double and triple check. This would then be good science.

Unfortunately. since Graham is holding some of the "secret sauce" cards to his chest it may not be possible to accurately replicate his claims. That he has disassembled the device only adds to the confusion.

Ben and Mark, welcome to OUResearch forum.

Whaat?  RULE NUMBER ONE for OU inventors is this:

If you have built a device that produces OU, Never, Never, NEVER take it apart !!!

If you absolutely must take something apart, build another identical one and take _that one_ apart !!!!

 :o
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 29
Whaat?  RULE NUMBER ONE for OU inventors is this:

If you have built a device that produces OU, Never, Never, NEVER take it apart !!!

If you absolutely must take something apart, build another identical one and take _that one_ apart !!!!

 :o

OH YES, a thousand times NEVER NEVER~~~~~~~  Once the goose starts laying golden eggs..........don't kill the goose to see how she works!!!!!

Respectfully
Ben K4ZEP
   

Group: Renaissance Man
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2211


Buy me a cigar
Dear All.

I have just re read the last 3 pages of OU.com I cannot find any reference to disassembly, did I miss it ?   ???

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
Group: Ambassador
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3392
That's the word on the street, mighta been mentioned somewhere .

but i do believe its accurate.

Rule number one..never take it apart
Rule number two ,"see rule number one"

Chet
   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2341
Dear All.

I have just re read the last 3 pages of OU.com I cannot find any reference to disassembly, did I miss it ?   ???

Cheers Grum.

It was on this forum, in post #57:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3319.msg56251#msg56251

At the time I was there he had his conversion transformer taken apart with only one set of PM's attached................................


Itsu

   

Group: Room3327 Private Group
Hero Member
*

Posts: 575
Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
Here are the release dates just posted by Aaron for the videos from the conference:


Release schedule so far:

7/25/2016 PAUL BABCOCK – BABCOCK DC MOTOR DISCLOSURE
7/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - COLD ELECTRICITY CIRCUIT
7/29/2016 PANEL DISCUSSION
8/1/2016 JIM MURRAY – FUNDAMENTALS OF THE TRANSFORMING GENERATOR
8/3/2016 GRAHAM GUNDERSON – MAGNETIC IMPLOSION TRANSFORMER
8/5/2016 MICHAEL WATERS – OPEN SYSTEM PHYSICS AND THERMODYNAMICS
8/9/2016 PETER LINDEMANN - BEDINI SG: BEYOND THE ADVANCED HANDBOOK
8/11/2016 KEN ROCHON - USING SOCIAL MEDIA TO SPREAD THE BREAKTHROUGH ENERGY MESSAGE
8/15/2016 ERIC DOLLARD – ELECTRICAL TRANSMISSION IN MULTIPLE COORDINATE SYSTEMS
8/18/2016 MORAY B. KING – FROM NANOBUBBLES TO BALL LIGHTNING: AN OVERVIEW OF NEW ENERGY POSSIBILITIES
8/23/2016 PROFESSOR ROBERT M. HARALICK – PARAMAGNETIC AND DIAMAGNETIC FIELD EXPERIMENTS
8/25/2016 AARON MURAKAMI – PULSED PLASMA MOTOR – KEY TO THE GRAY MOTOR?
8/27/2016 AARON MURAKAMI - SCOTCH YOKE BOB TEAL MOTOR

So it looks like Aug 3rd you will be able to purchase the video.


---------------------------
Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ... 23
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2020-08-09, 15:53:27