Generating System

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2025-04-20, 08:35:22
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Author Topic: Generating System (Read 78219 times)

TinselKoala	Re: Generating System « Reply #150 on: 2018-08-09, 09:02:46 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: TinMan on 2018-08-09, 04:08:04 (snip) Here is what i see happening. Matts two coiler won't work,and he will then say that you need Daves big generator to get OU. This means 2 to 3 months for the two of them to come up with an escape plan to showing Daves big gen pumping out 1600 watts with just 300 watts input. Lets see what happens Brad Don't you know already? They'll pull out of the demo because of criticism from skeptics. But first there will probably be a cycle or two of "it broke and we are waiting for parts" and "the basement flooded so maybe next week" and such like.

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #151 on: 2018-08-09, 11:03:07 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	Quote from: Chet K on 2018-08-09, 07:52:48 a self runner would make the measuring point mute Then a self runner you shall have. Myself and Graham are working on that now. It also looks like Ronee is on board,so expect to see a well built machine or two soon. Im about to brave the cold wet night,and hit the workshop,as there is something i need you all to see. It's been running for 22hours 18 minutes from the time of this post. Be back later on tonight. Brad Oh P.S If some one on that other forum some how gets a hold of this(the machine design),you will be getting in your Datsun,and going over there to sort them out. I better get a box of magnums for this one Chet. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #152 on: 2018-08-09, 13:19:36 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Well selling crumbs , "Secret" books or whatever for personal gain ? and never showing a proper test to validate it ? there were some very heavy Knocks on Dave's door by such persons [a Key member of the secret bookselling crew] on Matts door too ..... the Knocks were so hard that Dave just gave away this design [since a "crew" member saw it all anyway] however the "other design" which evolved from this.... thats being done thru a MAJOR highly regarded university for peer review. I was once told years ago by a very feisty fellow ,open sourcing a free energy tech would be like giving it to your worst enemy... in this house ...Peter's house , we work solely for open source because its the right thing to do ...and we are men of like mind ... and I know you too are one of those men , and the "how too" of open sourcing your tech is up to you. that bein said....I'd have to push the old datsun roadster ATM But the 59 Fiat 500 Nuova is warming up in the garage... nothing quite as menacing as that pulling up ....[would probably end up pushing that too] better ask the Misses if I can borrow her subaru..... Edit I added this bit while you were typing [ above and below] -------------------------------- But yes Brad... I would drive as far as there is land in front of me .......certain things I just could not stomach. stealing this for personal gain ..... « Last Edit: 2018-08-09, 13:48:17 by Chet K »

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #153 on: 2018-08-09, 13:25:20 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	Quote from: Chet K on 2018-08-09, 13:19:36 Well selling crumbs , "Secret" books or whatever for personal gain ? and never showing a proper test to validate it ? there were some very heavy Knocks on Dave's door by such persons [a Key member of the secret bookselling crew] on Matts door too ..... the Knocks were so hard that Dave just gave away this design [since a "crew" member saw it all anyway] however the "other design" which evolved from this.... thats being done thru a MAJOR highly regarded university for peer review. I was once told years ago by a very feisty fellow ,open sourcing a free energy tech would be like giving it to your worst enemy... in this house ...Peter's house , we work solely for open source because its the right thing to do ...and we are men of like mind ... that bein said....I'd have to push the old datsun roadster ATM But the 59 Fiat 500 Nuova is warming up in the garage... nothing quite as menacing as that pulling up ....[would probably end up pushing that too] better ask the Misses if I can borrow here subaru..... I know another man who gave his work to the world,and died a broke lonely man Tesla. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #154 on: 2018-08-09, 14:57:43 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Tinsel Quote Don't you know already? They'll pull out of the demo because of criticism from skeptics. end quote --------------------------------------------------------------- push hard enuff and I am certain you will see that prophesy fullfilled at Stefan's forum Dave respects Brad as a replicator and will assist him as he agreed to before your contributions there. nothing has changed , Brad is investing HIS time and money for the benefit of the community and hopefully a better understanding of the claim. nothing but gratitude here

TinselKoala	Re: Generating System « Reply #155 on: 2018-08-09, 16:03:19 »
Group: Guest	Wait... I'm confused. Quote in this house ...Peter's house , we work solely for open source because its the right thing to do ...and we are men of like mind ... ... but... Quote If some one on that other forum some how gets a hold of this(the machine design),you will be getting in your Datsun,and going over there to sort them out. Open source, or not open source? A forum with threads that not everyone can read, working solely for open source? Talking about secret projects on threads that the public _can_ see, like this one? Don't get me wrong, I love this place and consider everyone here my friends. But maybe we should decide just what we really mean by "open source"... since it seems to be more of an "open sore" to some people. Personally I think teasing is a form of bullying and I don't respond well to it.

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #156 on: 2018-08-09, 16:47:51 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	let me ask you a question If you actually decided to do a replication of something you felt interested you and you were going to work with the claimant to replicate this Device and every time you went back to the thread that you just ordered parts for with your hard earned money and dedicated huge blocks of your hard to get time... there were ten pages of fights and interactions from persons who had not made your commitment and were annoying the claimant until he left the forum . maybe 100 times this has happened at Stefan's maybe 1000 times ...[is that OU yet] the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results trying to discuss things in a place where there are no pages of fights or interruptions with a group of people who have agreed to assist the claimant by investing ...with Their time and money [after doing their own diligence for the project?? in a place which is dedicated to open source ? nothin but gratitude here and then to consider the personal experiences of members here who have had visits and computer /phone attacks /interruptions as well as packages between members interrupted [DUT disassembled and left in pieces] and then actual break ins with entire Lab equipment and device removed [and nothing else...last few weeks]?? it is not taunting or bullying.... it is survival Mode.... and that is not just one mans opinion.

Centraflow	Re: Generating System « Reply #157 on: 2018-08-09, 17:23:38 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 3024	Chet I for one, don't know about others, have decided to work quietly with maybe just one or two people in the shadows atm. I do not have a lot of money to put into projects, now I am replacing slowly things lost, it's not going to stop me, I think I'm so close now. When it is all worked out and running I will put it in the public domain. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

TinselKoala	Re: Generating System « Reply #158 on: 2018-08-09, 20:08:12 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Chet K on 2018-08-09, 16:47:51 let me ask you a question If you actually decided to do a replication of something you felt interested you and you were going to work with the claimant to replicate this Device and every time you went back to the thread that you just ordered parts for with your hard earned money and dedicated huge blocks of your hard to get time... there were ten pages of fights and interactions from persons who had not made your commitment and were annoying the claimant until he left the forum . maybe 100 times this has happened at Stefan's maybe 1000 times ...[is that OU yet] the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results trying to discuss things in a place where there are no pages of fights or interruptions with a group of people who have agreed to assist the claimant by investing ...with Their time and money [after doing their own diligence for the project?? in a place which is dedicated to open source ? nothin but gratitude here and then to consider the personal experiences of members here who have had visits and computer /phone attacks /interruptions as well as packages between members interrupted [DUT disassembled and left in pieces] and then actual break ins with entire Lab equipment and device removed [and nothing else...last few weeks]?? it is not taunting or bullying.... it is survival Mode.... and that is not just one mans opinion. It sounds like you are trying to blame me, or skeptics in general, for those people "leaving the forum" with their unsupported claims and uncooperative attitudes. I reject that, totally. No skeptic on some forum is going to prevent anyone who actually has what they claim from changing the world and profitting personally from it. No way. Blame a skeptic? That just means the claimant can't put his data where his mouth is, so to speak. It also sounds like you are saying that there are Evil Forces out there who break into certified mail packages and take things apart (but don't steal them) and who break into labs and shops and even computers and phones (but stopped doing that, thank goodness.). SO maybe we had better just stop all this altogether, if those evil forces are monitoring the forums (and of course they can read the secret threads). We don't want anyone to get tossed into some extraordinary rendition site, or forced to work for the Montenegran military or something. Come on Chet... I think your brain may be getting soft. Besides, I've provided Dave with the perfect excuse for not being able to show his claimed COP 5+ electrical device. The Skeptics killed it !!

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #159 on: 2018-08-09, 20:43:11 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	that's not the half of it and its not really a topic which is discussed here Mush works for me

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #160 on: 2018-08-10, 00:19:58 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	Always let the duck take flight before trying to shoot it down --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #161 on: 2018-08-10, 18:27:25 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	this axel fellow posted a vid at energetic not sure if non members can see it or if non members would want to see it........ $:-\$ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CImNAp2iFJQ&feature=youtu.be also Brad there is talk of erased posts or modified posts with no "foot print" something only Administrators can do at that forum members Edits are noted/tagged as edited immediately for all time. that did not happen when member Bi allegedly altered his now famous comments. several persons did read these now modified without a trace posts I was told this is what led to the sudden changes over there [and all the nasty talk . some feel the Bi person has strong connections at that forum ? admin [and associates] at that forum is very suspect in the eyes of Dave or Matt due to things which have happened this last year [long business visits [attempting to make deals or ??] to both Matt and Dave ......] . I write these things only because the vitriol Matt shows towards this person Bi seems so baseless ,I never agree with this type of behavior , however I have not lived in Matts shoes either. That is the reason I shared these few things , for perspective . that is all I will write about that.... I will type no more words on that topic ...

gyula	Re: Generating System « Reply #162 on: 2018-08-10, 19:02:32 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1255	Hi Chet, As per my observations, everybody can erase his entire post at EF so that other members will not see it again. This has been observed several times during the years, Matt has done so quite a few times when he changed his mind not to share something or what he wrote was very rude. It is strange why the Admin tolerate such behaviour when forum rules have obviously been violated, members have been insulted or hurt. Other members at EF have been banned for much less during the years, not even violating any forum rules, they have been just better technically. Of course, there were members who simply deserved being banned. Regarding Bi, he did not change his posts at all, especially the one on which Matt accused him of rewriting it: another member, perhaps just axel quoted Bi's full post in question shortly after Bi posted it and the two texts are identical. I agree that most of the modifications or deletings by Matt in his own posts and / or making several of his video links private during the years may have been for fear of being 'robbed by the gods' so to speak. The other side of the coin may be: Matt and Turion and the few following them have kept the forum 'alive' i.e. made the traffic. Gyula

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #163 on: 2018-08-10, 19:44:53 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Gyula It is Not about removing ,yes that is no issue removing HOWEVER going back and changing a post?? I have seen most forums have a limit before an edit notice pops up it is only seconds long At EF,[it is impossible for a member to edit unnoticed there after those few seconds] ...the edit unnoticed time is several minutes here ,and hours long at Stefan's there are apparently a half dozen persons who saw this miraculous edit, way past the limit time ?? I was not one of them,and this is the real issue at that forum ATM [one of their reasons for attacking] it will most likely come to light over there ,as Matt has written it many times with his Admin reference ? Again I Did not see this miraculous edit . and they are suspicious now and feel Bi has close ties to Admin due to this ability.

gyula	Re: Generating System « Reply #164 on: 2018-08-10, 20:37:52 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1255	Okay, now I understand what you mean. 17 minutes passed after a member altrez (not axel as I wrote above) quoted Bi's full text, so in case Bi indeed changed his text within the "edit unnoticed time" window, then it had no trace unless someone made a snapshot from his monitor screen before Bi changed it (if he changed it, that is). I did not see Bi's original text either but I do not think he edited it within the time window. On Matt's writing the Admin word or Admin privileges: I am not aware of Bi's having any Admin possibilities at EF, maybe he has but I do not think so. But Matt may have meant that either the Admin did the change in Bi's original text without leaving any trace of modifying it or Matt simply labeled Bi as Admin (posts 4133 and 4136), to be able to change his posts without any trace. I think this came when Bi commented Tinman's video on the Matt motor because Turion brought that video up, denauncing it. And Bi dared to write again the motor did not perform more out than in, this again started a debate. And it ended when Bi wrote this: "Show me solid proof or convincing evidence of those claims or admit they are false claims, and I'll get out of here." Matt and Dave immediatly admitted they had lied all the time so that Bi should keep his word and leave the thread (or perhaps the forum) that was their sole intention. Gyula

Chet K	Re: Generating System « Reply #165 on: 2018-08-10, 21:24:23 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	I always liked Bi ,and honestly have never had any issue with anything I have read except admit these are false claims. I always hear admit your lying when I see someone write that type of sentence to another. and if they were on the street where I come from ,and did this infront of a crowd ?? admit your lying ...ends up with a knuckle sandwich and a big dust up goes down... -------------------------------------------- I have to admit ,these types of things are right next to having my fingernails pulled out on my list of "things I don't like to do" I loathe this stuff

CITFTA	Re: Generating System « Reply #166 on: 2018-08-10, 22:00:00 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 782 Believing in something false doesn't make it true.	I think I read here a couple of days ago that someone wanted my opinion about Dave and Matt and their claims. If I am wrong about that then don't bother to read the following. I will try to give a brief history of my involvement with them. A few years ago I got involved with the Tesla Switch thread on the Energetic Forum. From that involvement with Matt I decided to go to the first Energy Conference in Idaho. On the plane ride out there I met Matt who was seated right across the aisle from me. I saw some interesting things there like the giant Ferris Wheel the name that can't be mentioned demoed there. I also heard some very ridiculous claims made by the great Dr. of motors and his sidekick Erron. I realized then that it was mostly a money making plan and not really serious about free or alternative energy. I never went back. After that conference I was invited by Matt to look at the thread by David Bowling about his accidental discovery of the never ending power of a certain type of dead battery. For the next couple of years we tried everything we could think of to duplicate whatever was happening in those special batteries. We all spent many dollars and time buying junk batteries from the salvage yards trying to find any that had that special whatever it was that made them act like that. We had a very few successes and many many failures. I was lucky enough to find one battery with the special properties. When I hooked it up to the 3 battery generating system it ran a 400 watt inverter off the bad battery for over 8 hours and the primary batteries went up slightly in voltage during that time. The inverter was powering a 100 watt incandescent bulb for that entire time. There was a motor connected from the primary batteries to the 3 battery that was also running at that time. But I don't think it was powering any load. All the power for the inverter was apparently coming from the 3rd "special" dead battery even though a motor was being turned by the voltage from the primary batteries. Seeing that with my own eyes convinced me that Dave and Matt did know something about what they were talking about. However we were never able to determine what made the proper " dead" battery or how to duplicate it. So we finally gave up on that idea. What we had discovered during all the testing though was that the basic 3 BGS did give us the ability to run loads for much longer than if they were run just straight off the batteries. So with Matt leading the way for most of the journey he decided to design a change in a motor that would pulse battery 3 instead of supplying a steady voltage and current to it. So that was the idea behind the rewound Matt motor. And since that time I have seen commercially available battery chargers that also use pulse charging. So the idea was valid. As I have mentioned before Dave is electronically challenged. This motor was a way for him to pulse charge the 3rd battery without burning out any electronics. It also gave him a way to power a generator. At this stage Matt and Dave started looking for an efficient generating system. Dave's theory was that with the 3BGS system recovering most of the power being used to turn the motor, if we could get an efficient generating system we might be able to get it over the top and reach overunity. One of the first things we discovered was that if we built a machine capable of generating some real power the magnetic cogging became a problem. Dave came up with a way to overcome that. I can now share that as they have decided to make that public. Up til a few weeks ago I did not feel free to share that information. Dave wondered if we could use another set of magnets to offset the attraction of the main magnets to the cores. Matt designed a small test machine. He machined it out and sent it to me to experiment with as at that time he and Dave were both very busy. I assembled it and started tuning it and found the idea of Dave's worked like a charm. With no load on the coils I could get the current draw down to almost nothing by carefully adjusting the opposing magnets. Dave went on to try several different configurations of the opposing magnets idea until he settled on what he felt was the best design. At this time I have NOT tested Dave's claim that he has a generator that speeds up under load. I do know that he has measured the current draw on the motor with no coils or magnets on the rotor to give him a base no load current draw and speed. Then when he adds the magnets and coils and balances the magnetic cogging the the current draw is a little higher. And when he actually puts a load to the generator the current draw goes BELOW the base draw when there were no magnets or coils. And of course it speeds up under load. So what do I really KNOW about Dave and Matt's work. I know from my own testing that the 3BGS gives extended run times as compared to running the same load straight off the battery. I know from my own testing that using the Matt modified motor does give increased charging to the 3rd battery. I know from my own testing that the magnetic cogging can be solved with opposing magnets. I know although it is a rather moot point that if you can get a special "dead" battery you will see something amazing. However as soon as you turn it off the magic is gone. You can only have one shot at it. It seems it will run for a very long time until you stop it. Dave's first one ran for weeks until he took it apart to show a patent attorney and it never ran again. Mine ran for over 8 hours until I turned it off to never run like that again. Respectfully, Carroll --------------------------- Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.

gyula	Re: Generating System « Reply #167 on: 2018-08-10, 23:40:22 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1255	Hi Carroll, Thanks for your opinion on and describing your involvement with Dave and Matt and the 3BGS setup. For me the generator is the interesting 'component' in the setup. You wrote: "With no load on the coils I could get the current draw down to almost nothing by carefully adjusting the opposing magnets." Can you share now whether adding real load across the coils, normal Lenz law started to ruin the magnetic balance and the input current to the prime mover increased because of that? (I do not mean yet the introduction of utilizing the increase of coils self capacitance as per Tesla Coil for Electromagnets patent Dave mentioned, resulting in the acceleration of the rotor under load. All I am curious at the moment is whether Lenz law tends to ruin the balance or the balance is load dependent or combining the coils with the increase of their self capacitance the situation improves Lenz law wise. One more thing if I may? Dave mentioned another patent on magnetic repulsion but he has not found it: do you know that patent number? Thanks, Gyula

CITFTA	Re: Generating System « Reply #168 on: 2018-08-11, 00:13:14 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 782 Believing in something false doesn't make it true.	Hi Gyula, I don't know if adding a load ruined the magnetic balance or it was just normal Lenz law effect. I do know the rotor slowed down and the current draw went up when I started drawing power from the coils. These were just normal coils with nothing special about them. The whole test was to see if we could eliminate the cogging effect of the attraction of the magnets to the cores and that was successful. I did not know there was a patent on the magnetic repulsion to offset the attraction until Dave posted that a few days ago. I know he thought he could patent that idea but apparently the patent search showed prior art so he decided to share what he knew. So I do not know the patent number. Take care, Carroll --------------------------- Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.

JimBoot	Re: Generating System « Reply #169 on: 2018-08-11, 01:29:40 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 1783	My bench will be ready in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to working on this one. Are there any demos left online ?

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #170 on: 2018-08-11, 06:01:06 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	Quote from: CITFTA on 2018-08-10, 22:00:00 I do know that he has measured the current draw on the motor with no coils or magnets on the rotor to give him a base no load current draw and speed. Then when he adds the magnets and coils and balances the magnetic cogging the the current draw is a little higher. And when he actually puts a load to the generator the current draw goes BELOW the base draw when there were no magnets or coils. And of course it speeds up under load. Respectfully, Carroll Carroll Have you seen this with your own eyes,or are you taking Daves word for it? If the highlighted is true,then this is a clear sign of OU,as there is no way the current draw can be less than what the motor draws alone unless there is a true motoring action coming from the generator it self. I guess the only way i will know,is to build one myself. It will have to be scaled,as the largest neo's i have are 19mm round x 25mm long. The one bit of info i need is--what is the core material used for the coils?. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #171 on: 2018-08-11, 06:02:36 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	Quote from: JimBoot on 2018-08-11, 01:29:40 My bench will be ready in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to working on this one. Are there any demos left online ? Jim ya old tax dodger--how ya been?. --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

muDped	Re: Generating System « Reply #172 on: 2018-08-11, 06:18:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3055	Thanks Carroll for the most interesting account of your experience with the phenomenon. Quote from: Carroll I know although it is a rather moot point that if you can get a special "dead" battery you will see something amazing. However as soon as you turn it off the magic is gone. You can only have one shot at it. It seems it will run for a very long time until you stop it. Dave's first one ran for weeks until he took it apart to show a patent attorney and it never ran again. Mine ran for over 8 hours until I turned it off to never run like that again. Sulfation of batteries is a mysterious thing. I've noticed that some sulfated batteries recover very quickly and return to normal charge/discharge characteristics with abundant capacity. The vast majority of sulfated batteries recover very slowly, however, and many of those seem to have permanently lost capacity and may only deliver 50% or less of their normal capacity. There must be a reasonable explanation for what you've described and I'm wondering if it's somehow related to the nature of sulfation. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

TinMan	Re: Generating System « Reply #173 on: 2018-08-11, 07:29:09 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4727	This is one of the best article's i have found on lead acid batteries,how they work,and the sulphation effect. https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/secret-workings-of-a-lead-acid-battery.html My take with these !special! batteries,is that the charge is actually locked into the oxides within the plates by sulphation it self. This would make the battery appear to be dead when a large current cannot be delivered,due to very little plate surface,but where a small current draw could be had for days. This small current draw would slowly desulphate the plates,which would appear to show the battery putting out more power as time go's on. With one of these batteries in this condition used in the 3 battery system,it would appear that more and more power was being produced by the system,without that power being taken out of the two good batteries in the system. The 3 battery system would then appear to deliver far more power than the two good batteries could supply. The simple answer is--the energy is simply locked away in the third bad (special) battery,and the !special! battery is simply giving up that !hard to get to! stored energy that is locked away behind the sulphate insulation curtain that is slowly dissolving over time. I have one of these !special! batteries. It is an 18 Amp hour SLA. I can apply a load that draws a good 1 amp--the voltage drops upon connection of the load,and then i can watch the voltage rise up as much as 1 volt over a period of about an hour. So the effect is,i can draw 1 amp for 1 hour(1 amp hour),and the battery appears to have more stored energy at the end of that hour under load,than what i started with before applying the load--a self charging battery I suspect that this is what the guys were seeing with there 3 battery systems--you simply let the stored charge escape jail Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

gyula	Re: Generating System « Reply #174 on: 2018-08-11, 12:06:39 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1255	Hi Carroll, Thanks for your answers. I see this as follows: the counter fields of the coils (by the load current) versus the balanced magnets tend to retard (slow down) the rotor, this is normal Lenz law and at the same time this counter field also causes a certain unbalance for the balanced magnetic setup. Surely this latter can be remedied to a certain degree by readjusting the magnet positions to match them for the load, this may be a certain trade-off. And surely further 'tricks' like Dave included in his description are needed to get overunity. Gyula

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