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Author Topic: Generating System  (Read 23891 times)

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I've followed this topic at EF since the beginning and have been
quite amused by the discussion as it has evolved.  There has been
recent activity in the discussion and the discussion from post
#3916 onward
just about says it all.

There is a reason the "system" seems to work to the extent
that it has been claimed and it is in reality a simple explanation.

Those who are pushing the "system" and who are dismayed that
so few experimenters are enthralled by it have seemingly become
obsessed with it.

There is no "magic" in the circuit nor is there anything particularly
unusual in the way it is reported to function.  In fact, the "secret"
is in plain view to the promoters but for some reason they seem
unable to "see" it.  Although they do recommend, for any who dare
to give it a try, to use "big batteries."

Has anyone else here been following the discussion?

What are your thoughts?


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Yes, I've been following it closely and in the early days commented to Turion that I felt he was being deceived. I suggested that even a very 'bad' battery can lock-in considerable energy and through plate desulfation and release this energy by HV pulsing, making it very difficult to prove that an apparent gain can be clearly demonstrated to originate from a source external to the DUT.
   
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I suggested that even a very 'bad' battery can lock-in considerable energy and through plate desulfation and release this energy ...
I have not been following that thread closely and so, excuse me if I am off the rails:

Are you saying that only by using a sulphated battery does the system work?
   
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I have not been following that thread closely and so, excuse me if I am off the rails:

Are you saying that only by using a sulphated battery does the system work?

Turion is saying that a 'bad' battery is required and preferably a very bad battery. My understanding of that, is its terminal voltage does not significantly rise over a prolonged period whilst connected in the working system.
   

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Turion is saying that a 'bad' battery is required and preferably a very bad battery. My understanding of that, is its terminal voltage does not significantly rise over a prolonged period whilst connected in the working system.

If it is a bad battery,where that battery is badly sulphated,then it's terminal voltage will rise to that of the supply voltage(the sum voltage of the two series connected batteries),due to it's high internal resistance-->A battery that has a low internal resistance is a good battery. So,if battery 3 is bad due to sulphation,then very little(if any) current will flow through the system.
Funny this topic should come up today,as today i actually put the 3 battery system together,and ran some testing myself. Battery 3 is a bad LAB(lead acid battery),and no current would flow through the system for the first 30 minutes,due to the 3rd batteries high internal resistance. Battery 3s terminal voltage was that of the two series connected 12 volt SLAs--also due to the 3rd batteries high internal resistance.

So you see,if battery 3 is bad due to sulphation,then no current will flow,and when the needed current dose flow,then battery 3 is healthy again.
As i recall,the !bad! battery type that was needed, was a battery that would take a charge,but not hold a charge.
This would then allow current to flow through the system.


Brad


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I've followed this topic at EF since the beginning and have been
quite amused by the discussion as it has evolved.  There has been
recent activity in the discussion and the discussion from post
#3916 onward
just about says it all.



Those who are pushing the "system" and who are dismayed that
so few experimenters are enthralled by it have seemingly become
obsessed with it.

There is no "magic" in the circuit nor is there anything particularly
unusual in the way it is reported to function.  In fact, the "secret"
is in plain view to the promoters but for some reason they seem
unable to "see" it.  Although they do recommend, for any who dare
to give it a try, to use "big batteries."





Quote
There is a reason the "system" seems to work to the extent
that it has been claimed and it is in reality a simple explanation.

Could you explain as to what you think the simple explanation is please muDped

Quote
What are your thoughts?

When a PM DC motor is involved,my thoughts are--there is more to this than meets the eye.

Quote
Has anyone else here been following the discussion?

Over the last two weeks,i have been doing some extensive testing and research into this system,but where i use super caps instead of batteries.
This shortens the test run time's,and we need only two caps to get our potential difference.
Also,using capacitors allows us to calculate energies used and dissipated very accurately--unlike batteries,where it is very hard (if not impossible) to calculate energies stored and dissipated.

Below is the data sheet of my last test.
Enjoy.


Brad


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If it is a bad battery,where that battery is badly sulphated,then it's terminal voltage will rise to that of the supply voltage(the sum voltage of the two series connected batteries),due to it's high internal resistance-->A battery that has a low internal resistance is a good battery. So,if battery 3 is bad due to sulphation,then very little(if any) current will flow through the system.

Brad

Apologies, I explained it badly. You are correct in that, although the terminal voltage will meet the applied voltage under a badly sulfated condition, my understanding is that Turion ideally requires the battery not to have appreciably increased terminal voltage from its original level when rested off the system. In other words, the battery does not appreciably recover from its sulfated condition. Ref: Ossie Callanan REAC - radiant energy system.
   

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Believing something false does not make it true.
Hoppy,

You are at least 3 or maybe 4 years out of date with the info about the "Dead" battery.  Dave, Matt and myself gave up on that idea a few years ago.  It was just not possible to consistently find the right kind of "Dead" battery.  And if you did it would suddenly repair itself and no longer work like the mysterious battery Dave first discovered.  I had for a short while a battery that did all that Dave said it should.  I ran a load off the dead battery of an inverter powering a 13 watt led bulb for over 8 hours with a motor also running between the positives as Dave originally showed.  At the end of the 8 hour run the two primary batteries were actually showing a higher voltage than when I started.  After that run it never worked like that again.  The "Dead" battery repaired itself.

Dave and Matt have just recently released ALL the information they have about how to build a system that will consistently give very long run times from a couple of batteries.   With the proper generator which they have also detailed it should be possible to get a system that will never need charging from an outside source.  There are already a couple of people on the Energetic Forum that are claiming they have gotten this system to run loads and keep the batteries charged.

Respectfully,
Carroll


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Carroll,

I do realise that a lot has changed over the years . I was referring to the original concept that I commented on to Turion way-back.

Even reasonably healthy LA batteries can exhibit rising terminal voltage under load when subjected to pulsed charging currents. Eventually, through conditioning / desulfation the batteries will stabilise to exhibit normal charge / discharge curves. Long term load testing will show if there is any real system gain over and above expected capacity.
   

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Quote
Question from Tin Man:
Could you explain as to what you think the simple explanation is please muDped

Aye, I could.  I believe that Hoppy is on to the simple
explanation as well.  Those who understand the Lead
Acid Battery's characteristics and manufacture will
undoubtedly see it as well.

Your work with capacitors in place of batteries is very
revealing in a conclusive sort of way.  Well done!

By the way, the new style of Brushless Motor which
has become very popular with RC Modelers and
Quadcopter fliers makes an excellent generator.
The motors are small, three phase wound and
have Neo Magnets which will not fly off at
high revolutions per minute.  They are also very
powerful motors when driven by the needed
circuitry.
« Last Edit: 2018-07-21, 22:47:24 by muDped »


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As my research is directly related to this topic,i will post my research results here from now on.

First off,i have spent the last two weeks solid carrying out tests with capacitors,transferring energy from one cap to another using all sorts of series transfer methods--E.G resistors,motors,inductors etc.

Im sure you have all heard or believe that when doing a cap to cap transfer via a  series connected resistor of some value,you end up with half the voltage on each cap,and loose half the energy in the transfer.

Well,i would like to tell you that that is not true when using large value capacitors.
From 1F(and even lower than this) and up,the end voltage on both caps after the transfer is higher than half the value of the voltage that was across the source cap before the transfer.
You also do not loose half the energy,and as you increase in capacitance value,the less energy% you loose in the transfer.

I have been seeing large gains above the half voltage,and half energy loss !theory! over the last two weeks of testing,when using caps in the range of 50F.
ION did a sim of a transfer between two 1F cap's,and came out with half the starting voltage across each cap,and half the energy lost during the transfer-- as per accepted results say it should be.

I carried out a real world test,using two 1F caps.
The results are in the video below.
We all know about DA(dielectric absorption)--pay close attention to the meter on the left during the transfer  O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoEXIB2qwWk.

With the caps i have,and the results gained over the last two week's,that continually show a COP1+ result,i decided to spend a bit more money toward this project.
As my limit ATM is two 100F caps (2 banks of two 50F caps hooked in parallel),a few days ago i ordered 6x 500F caps to continue my experiments with.
I am hoping to see larger gains with the larger capacitance values.
This gives me a much larger energy transfer,and over much longer test run times.
This will allow me to log the data at a far greater accuracy--even though results so far are quite accurate.


Brad


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The Three Battery System is essentially a regenerative
loop.  The retrograde "Matt Motor" serves a useful
function as a 'pulse generator with kickback' to more
effectively charge the third battery which is also a
part of the 'load' of the system.

Does the 'generator which speeds up under load with
multiple output coils'
actually produce more output power
than the calculated power needed to drive it?  That will
be the ultimate answer.  Bi is trying hard to get a meaningful
response from the 'inventor' as the discussion continues but
so far the 'inventor' is squirming and evasive.

The Current Interrupt Charging Algorithm is proven to be the
most effective means of charging the Lead-Acid Battery and
this system does provide pulses with kickback to the battery
being charged with some effect.

Is the system a cost-effective alternative to Solar Panels with
Batteries to store energy?  Will the 'inventor' of the unique
generator which 'speeds up under load' be able to convince
anyone of its ability to provide more output than input?

We shall see...

The now discussed modification of the basic circuit with
added Boost Converters makes the regenerative aspect of
the circuitry more complex.  Bistander and Dragon are
contributing much to the discussion.

« Last Edit: 2018-07-23, 00:29:42 by muDped »


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Well i decided to go read the thread from the start,and what did i find lol
Seems way back then Turion took a liking to my L.A.G lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SNN226xCSU&feature=player_embedded

Now there is a generator that dose speed up under load,but not due to the reduction of eddy current drag like all other !speed up under load! generators out there.

I think most over there are lost,and the goal posts keep getting shifted.

First Turion said at the beginning of the thread,it was this !magic! battery you needed to make it work.
Then some time later,you needed the !Matt motor!  C.C
Now it seems that in order to make this setup OU,you need this new found generator

Quote Turion : So it will all depend on the generator whether you see a COP>1 from the system. I KNOW a generator can be built which will output more power than is consumed by the system.

So now we don't need 3 batteries,where one has magical power.
We don't need this !wonder! motor of Matt's either
We no longer need the high performance boost converter
We now need this !super! generator to get OU--and Turion !knows! a generator can be built which will put out more power than it takes to drive it  O0

I think the only one over there that knows what he is talking about,is that bloke Bistander.

Any chance you could get him over here on this thread muDped ?,as i got my ass kicked out of that forum when i exposed UFOpolotics for the fraud that he is,and Aaron the rookie seen his book sales on the subject slowly going down the drain when i bought the truth out lol.

My 500F caps will be here this week some time,so then we can really get the ball rolling  O0


Brad


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Well i decided to go read the thread from the start,and what did i find lol
Seems way back then Turion took a liking to my L.A.G lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SNN226xCSU&feature=player_embedded

Now there is a generator that dose speed up under load,but not due to the reduction of eddy current drag like all other !speed up under load! generators out there.

I think most over there are lost,and the goal posts keep getting shifted.

snip

Brad

That is interesting Brad, did you ever progress the L.A.G. further?

But you are right on the shifting goal posts over there, Dave will tell you precisely how the only coil that will work is his 12 or 60 strand coil and then Matt will come on and say just a three strand like this will work fine, Then Dave comes on and says the big coils have no output and that is why the big generater is under the bench and not on the bench LOL

But they are arguing black is white over this admitted OBSOLETE system??? What is the point?

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To all interested in cap to cap energy transfers:

It seems that Brad and I have some disagreement on the mechanism of cap to cap energy transfers where he seems to be showing excess energy by using supercaps (Electric Double Layer Caps) or ELDC's as they are also known.

I have run experiments where there is no extra energy using standard high quality film capacitors and these agree completely with simulations of the same.

I maintain that you cannot use the 1/2CV^2 formula when dealing with supercaps as they are hybrid capacitor / batteries and there is hidden energy stored that will give erroneous readings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Here I accidentally posted links to the private thread on the subject so this space is reserved  for the deleted links to the private thread, which I will restore when that thread is made public)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what would solve the debate is to actually measure the energy used to charge a supercap and compare that to the 1/2CV^2 formula of the resultant stored energy. Any discrepancy would point to the "battery effect" inherent in supercaps and is the reason why 1/2CV^2 does not apply and will give readings of higher voltage left on the supercaps after the transfer, rather than the actual one half voltage expected.

I hope others can chime in with their thoughts on this issue. Meanwhile as time permits I will run experiments using a variety of high quality film type capacitors as well as electrolytics and if I can find them, my supercaps.

I will admit there may be an electret effect that can also account for some very small excess energy to be found in the transfer, but it would indeed be very small compared to the actual transferred energy.

Note  below the actual recommended method of measurement of the capacitance of a supercap. When rated voltage is achieved, there is a 30 minute dead zone during constant current charging before the actual slope measurement zone. It is obvious from the graph that the 1/2CV^2  formula is not accurate for measuring supercaps. It is also obvious that using the normal time constant formula would lead to an inaccurate measurement. Voltage slope measurement during constant current discharge seems to be the preferred method.

Important reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

So we can continue to debate in this thread.

regards
e



« Last Edit: 2018-07-23, 21:25:43 by ion »


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Good stuff there ION.

One of my videos demonstrates a 10F supercap actually gaining voltage while it is powering a load (a JT, but still...)

It might be more difficult to show such a phenomenon with larger capacity supercaps. On the other hand a given voltage increase means more energy in the larger capacity.

Lately I've been playing with these 10F aerogel dielectric supercaps. They are lots of fun and have very little leakage.





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To all interested in cap to cap energy transfers:

It seems that Brad and I have some disagreement on the mechanism of cap to cap energy transfers where he seems to be showing excess energy by using supercaps (Electric Double Layer Caps) or ELDC's as they are also known.

I have run experiments where there is no extra energy using standard high quality film capacitors and these agree completely with simulations of the same.

I maintain that you cannot use the 1/2CV^2 formula when dealing with supercaps as they are hybrid capacitor / batteries and there is hidden energy stored that will give erroneous readings.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Here I accidentally posted links to the private thread on the subject so this space is reserved  for the deleted links to the private thread, which I will restore when that thread is made public)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what would solve the debate is to actually measure the energy used to charge a supercap and compare that to the 1/2CV^2 formula of the resultant stored energy. Any discrepancy would point to the "battery effect" inherent in supercaps and is the reason why 1/2CV^2 does not apply and will give readings of higher voltage left on the supercaps after the transfer, rather than the actual one half voltage expected.

I hope others can chime in with their thoughts on this issue. Meanwhile as time permits I will run experiments using a variety of high quality film type capacitors as well as electrolytics and if I can find them, my supercaps.

I will admit there may be an electret effect that can also account for some very small excess energy to be found in the transfer, but it would indeed be very small compared to the actual transferred energy.

Note  below the actual recommended method of measurement of the capacitance of a supercap. When rated voltage is achieved, there is a 30 minute dead zone during constant current charging before the actual slope measurement zone. It is obvious from the graph that the 1/2CV^2  formula is not accurate for measuring supercaps. It is also obvious that using the normal time constant formula would lead to an inaccurate measurement. Voltage slope measurement during constant current discharge seems to be the preferred method.

Important reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

So we can continue to debate in this thread.

regards
e

Ion

I see you clearly state that there is hidden energy stored in the super caps. This being the case,and using 1/2CV^2 dose not account for this hidden energy,would that not make my calculated test result values low?.

So,if there is energy stored within the caps that i have not accounted for,then the COP+ values that i ended up with are actually lower than the value would be when we account for this hidden energy.

Sounds good to me O0


Brad
« Last Edit: 2018-07-24, 12:52:34 by TinMan »


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 author=ion link=topic=3649.msg68813#msg68813 date=1532359569]


Quote
I think what would solve the debate is to actually measure the energy used to charge a supercap and compare that to the 1/2CV^2 formula of the resultant stored energy. Any discrepancy would point to the "battery effect" inherent in supercaps and is the reason why 1/2CV^2 does not apply and will give readings of higher voltage left on the supercaps after the transfer, rather than the actual one half voltage expected.

That will not result in accurate values of stored energy withing the capacitor.
eason being--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption

Quote: Charging a capacitor (due to a voltage between the capacitor plates) causes an electric field to be applied to the dielectric between the electrodes. This field exerts a torque on the molecular dipoles, causing the directions of the dipole moments to align with the field direction. This change in the molecular dipoles is called oriented polarization and also causes heat to be generated, resulting in dielectric losses.

So how would you know how much of the input energy to charge the cap was dissipated as heat?.

I would also like to bring to your attention the experiments i carried out,and posted in the !other! thread,where i discharged the cap over the 2.2 ohm resistor. In all three of those tests,the dissipated energy by the resistor was near exact to the  calculated stored energy within the cap,using the 1/2CV*2 method.
There was only 1.3J (if i recall correctly)out of the calculated 180 J's not accounted for,which could well have been energy dissipated by the cap and connecting wires them self.That is only .7% off being 100% accurate.
I really do not think it comes much closer than that.

I have no problem with,and do agree that some of the energy is stored within the dielectric material it self.
What i am saying is,that when the cap is discharged slowly,the energy stored within the dielectric material is released.

In my last video,we seen this release right before our eyes.
For those who missed it,watch the meter on the left(the one hooked to the supply cap)at the 1:40 mark.
The DMM decided to time out right in the middle of it,but you can clearly see what is happening-even after i switch the meter back on.
Keep in mind,while this is happening,the meter on the right(the one hooked to the receiving cap) continues to increase in value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoEXIB2qwWk


Brad


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Ion

I see you clearly state that there is hidden energy stored in the super caps. This being the case,and using 1/2CV^2 dose not account for this hidden energy,would that not make my calculated test result values low?.

So,if there is energy stored within the caps that i have not accounted for,then the COP+ values that i ended up with are actually lower than the value would be when we account for this hidden energy.

Sounds good to me O0


Brad

The hidden energy causes the supercap to supercap transfer voltage to be higher than the expected one-half of the original voltage. This is not seen in real world good quality film capacitor tests where the transfer produces a very close to one-half.

Then when you use the 1/2CV^2 formula to arrive at resultant energy you find you have a bit more than the start energy calculated of the first capacitor using the same formula.

It is my belief that if the actual energy was tallied to charge the first supercap, it would be a bit more than the calculated value shows and why 1/2CV^2 is not an accurate method of calculating the energy of a hybrid cap/battery.

To answer your other post:

The dissipation factor and heating effect is miniscule for DC and becomes large at AC frequencies, which is why supercaps capacitance must be rated at a given frequency. At any rate the temperature rise can be measured and accounted for, which will be tiny for DC

You know that terminal voltage alone cannot tell the actual energy of a battery, nor can it tell the actual energy of a supercap.

So the supercap is "a little bit pregnant" with battery effect. Therefore your COP values are actually a little higher than expected, which would be 1.0 if measured correctly.

As an example I took a fully charged NiMH battery with terminal voltage of 1.396 volts and dumped it into a fully discharged identical cell, and the terminal voltage on both was 1.394 after a couple of hours. This is the extreme case where you have 100% battery effect, the transfer voltage is well above  one-half of the original terminal voltage, in fact it is close to the starting voltage. There are percentages of battery effect and normal ideal capacitor effect in supercaps.

Depending on the mix of the two will be the degree the voltage rises above the "one-half value" in both supercaps after the transfer.

regards
e

p.s. I agree that there may be some other strange gains that occur in supercap to supercap transfers, but first we must weed out the obvious effects to get to the stranger data reliably. We need to exhaust the "knowns" properly then we can diligently proceed to the  "unknowns".


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Here is an interesting paper on "Charge redistribuition and restoring voltage of supercapacitors", see this link:

https://dspace5.zcu.cz/bitstream/11025/11821/1/Kuparowitz.pdf   

It says in the Abstract part, last sentence:
"Supercapacitor capacitance value depends on the voltage of its terminals; with increasing voltage total capacitance increases." 

This may or may not be in connection with the COP findings, I am not sure.

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Here is an interesting paper on "Charge redistribuition and restoring voltage of supercapacitors", see this link:

https://dspace5.zcu.cz/bitstream/11025/11821/1/Kuparowitz.pdf   

It says in the Abstract part, last sentence:
"Supercapacitor capacitance value depends on the voltage of its terminals; with increasing voltage total capacitance increases." 

This may or may not be in connection with the COP findings, I am not sure.

Gyula

hi Gyula

That is a good paper, has everything to do with the COP errors, and the non-linear capacitance directly explains why a higher voltage (than half) is obtained during cap to cap transfer.

It further goes on to state that there are two mechanisms of charge transfer that creates the non-linear capacitance, and why the 1/2CV^2 formula cannot be used, then goes on to offer the actual formula required.

Thanks for finding that paper, it is a good read.

regards
e


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Yes, excellent find Gyula.
   
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Well, I wrote I was not sure how the reported capacitance change influence the COP findings because I think it should be tested in a system where the two (or 3) supercaps are switched in position, i.e. doing tests in a dynamic system.  We need not rest the case yet...  8)

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Well, I wrote I was not sure how the reported capacitance change influence the COP findings because I think it should be tested in a system where the two (or 3) supercaps are switched in position, i.e. doing tests in a dynamic system.  We need not rest the case yet...  8)

Gyula

Hi Gyula

Thanks for all the info you have posted,both here and on the other thread  O0

Quote
We need not rest the case yet...

Darn straight there  O0
Nothing like bench testing to get accurate results.

I noticed the paper said nothing about the charge stored within the dielectric material,which i thought this was all about--the hidden energy.

Energy stored on the plates,and within the electrolyte is not hidden energy. It is just two energy storage mediums within the cap.

When a capacitor is discharged quickly,you will get the self charging effect. That is because the plates can discharge fast,but the electrolyte discharges a little slower.

However,if a supercap is discharge at a slower rate,then it will discharge completely,and there will be no self recharging effect.


Brad


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OK,the goodies have started turning up from Ebay  O0

The 500F supercaps and 100 watt precision resistors turned up today(a couple of days earlier than expected  O0)

The caps are heavier than i thought they would be,and boy dose it take some time to charge them up.
Over 20 minutes with the current limited to 500mA to get them to 2.7v

The resistors i !thought! i ordered were 50 watt rated,but 100 watt rated resistors turned up  :)

So lets get this show on the road,and work out how to calculate the stored energy within each cap.   O0


Brad




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