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Author Topic: Itsu's workbench / placeholder.  (Read 25431 times)

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No problem posts deleated
« Last Edit: 2020-06-19, 18:29:10 by AlienGrey »
   

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Good Day AlienGrey:
What "window" ?!
Yes 74HC00 exists and contains four NAND gates just like the CD4011. So what is the big problem with a different pinout?
No. Could you be more direct?  i.e. no riddles to solve

sure a 74HC4011 and a CD4011 has same pin outs a 74HC00 does not.

Also a window (data window) starts off with one timing post split in to 2 and one leg of the split has a variable delay
you can then gate it 'on' on the input of a mos fet driver and the turn it off with the other input what could be simpler ?

I'm not trying to be clever but i don’t really want to build another board  so do you know where I can get a 74HC011 ?
i can't find any.

Also,  this is Itsu's workbench thread.  This means that talking about your own circuits here is off-topic.
If you want to talk about your circuits then make your own workbench thread.  If you want to talk about other people's circuits without the originator's participation, then create a general thread about it. 

That’s ok i didn’t know that, I have deleted my posts as best I can.
Here, discuss only what Itsu is currently building...and right now he is building a high-power nano pulser based on a crappy old Russian transistor and crappy old Russian diode, because he wants to verify whether Dally's original claims were plausible.

Regards AG also the KT296 is only a 32mhz device it's useless at HF RF frequencies you need a 300 mhz to get a decent nano pulse even then its distorted and if I’m not mistaken is all we are interested in is the rise time and the fall time that has to be in the lower nano range not the gap in between. Un less you know other wise and if you not care full pulses like that are both dangerous and deadly.

Cheers AG

PS thanks for the info
   

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sure a 74HC4011 and a CD4011 has same pin outs a 74HC00 does not.
Adapting to a different pinout is easier than finding a chip that is not manufactured.

Also a window (data window) starts off with one timing post split in to 2 and one leg of the split has a variable delay
you can then gate it 'on' on the input of a mos fet driver and the turn it off with the other input what could be simpler ?
I am sorry, I do not understand that sentence.  Is English your native language? (...if it is not - I will read it twice).

I'm not trying to be clever but i don’t really want to build another board  so do you know where I can get a 74HC011 ?
What makes you think it is possible to get it at all?

... the KT296 is only a 32mhz device it's useless at HF RF frequencies you need a 300 mhz to get a decent nano pulse even then its distorted and if I’m not mistaken is all we are interested in is the rise time and the fall time that has to be in the lower nano range not the gap in between.
The Modus Operandi of the DSR diode is not contingent upon a fast rise time (or fall time) of its driver.  This diode interrupts the reverse current very abruptly even if the reverse current pulse was initiated very slowly (with a long risetime).
The level of reverse current flowing when the DSR diode interrupts it, is much more important to the power of the nanopulse, than the transition time of the diode's driver.

In the end it is an inductance that is responsible for the generation of the high-amplitude nanopulse because inductors really "don't like to" have their current interrupted abruptly.
   

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Do you realize that CD4000 is one of the slowest logic families out there now ?
For alternatives see e.g. this.
That depends on where you get them from and how long ago they were manufactured, I got some devices with TI
logo on them they looked as if they had been stored some time boy were the slow!
I also had some 74AHC00 devices they are worse than 74HC00 devices full of ringing and harmonics and fly off into oscilation
on fast switching.

So it goes to show unless one experiments we dont know what we are getting for our money.
« Last Edit: 2020-06-21, 20:13:56 by AlienGrey »
   

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AG,

good advice from verpies, open your own thread so you can present your circuit there, explain what it
suppose to do, have diagrams, pictures, PDF's, video's, etc. attached and have a discussion started.

Regards Itsu
regarding the circuit diagram You must be jesting :-\  I built it up as i went along, It's not like writing a 16F84 code where one does comments
next
to the code,  your lucky I did a pcb from the bread board layout i will post that when i get my thread sorted out it's all you need to get it going you will see later on.
PS I dont have a PDF editor never had the need for one.
regards

AG
« Last Edit: 2020-06-21, 01:17:08 by AlienGrey »
   

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I saw a post from verpies at OU.com (see steps below) which looks to me like a nice little project.

Quote
1) Attach two identical magnets on the perimeter of a bicycle wheel, diametrically oppositely.
2) Place two identical air core coils around the wheel diametrically oppositely.
3) Open both coils and precisely calibrate their position such that their induced voltage signals are identical and in phase.
4) Close one coil and prepare it for current measurement.
5) The bicycle wheel can be spun by hand but the i&v measurement must be made only when it is spinning down by itself (by its moment of inertia).
6) Repeat the experiment with the roles of the coils reversed, i.e. close the voltage sensing coil and open the current sensing coil.

So i have put something together and toke a video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZCh3gweuk

The below screenshots show; 1 the voltages synced  and 2 the voltage/current.
Seems the current is in phase with the voltage, no 90° phase shift as one would expect in an inductive circuit.

Coils 40 turns (2 layers) litz wire ~290uH / 1 Ohm.

Itsu
   
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Hey itsu
Quote
So i have put something together and toke a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ZCh3gweuk

You look like a man with a mission... have you looked at the Adams motor?.

In my opinion it is by far the easiest setup using a motor/generator setup to produce the desired results. If I remember correctly the last variant was disclosed by two gentlemen in Australia who were promptly shut down as is often the case.

Regards


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I don't like morning people... or mornings or people

“Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” George Bernard Shaw
   

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Hi AC,


yes i did look at the Adam's motor, but already some years ago (2011) on that Energetics.com forum before i got problems there.
Found that its been running in parallel resonance mode, but was not able (then) to replicate, perhaps time to revisit:

http://www.energeticforum.com/forum/energetic-forum-discussion/renewable-energy/8022-muller-generator-replication-by-romerouk?p=216358#post216358

Quote
By the way, when researching on the Adams motor info in http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Adams.rar , i found references
of this motor being driven in parallel resonance (200uF)
No diagram however is showing this, so i guess that is one of the missing info on the Adams motor.
See this info in the "Adams Manuel Addendum.pdf" in the above rar file:



================================================== ==========================
Coil Config, Used to Drive Motor: COIL 6B IH SERIES COIL 7B
Generator Voltage File VOPR01.DAT ..... Rotor Radius -------- 5.750 In.
Force Function File LBPAOl.DAT ........ Rotor-Stator GaP ---- 0.375 In.
Has Zero-Current Force? YES ........... Angle ON ------------ 55.000 deg.
Mode of Operation ATTRACTION .......... Angle OFF ----------- 80.000 Deg.
Rotation Direction CLOCKWISE .......... Duty Cycle ---------- 0.278.
Windage Drag at 100RPH 0.002 FtLb ..... Reporting Interv for Cal 1.000 Deg
Coil Inductance ------- 13.530 MHn .... Integrate Steps/Rep Intv 100
Capacitance ----------- 2OO.OOO Ufd ... Total Loops Calculated 6
Coil Resistance ------- 1.300 Ohm ..... Intervals to sw Close 55
Capacitor Resistance -- 0.200 Ohm ..... Interyals to Sw Open 80
Battery Resistance----- 0.800 Ohm ..... Resonant FrequencY---- 96.751 Hz
BatterY Voltage-------- 12.900 Vlt. ... Resonant Freq equvalent 1451.268 RPH
================================================== ==========================

Itsu
   

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Question from Partzman on OU.com:

Quote
I guess a question would be if Itsu spun his bicycle wheel at a higher RPM, would the current lag begin to reduce from 90 degrees?


Not sure if thats the correct question as my phase is 0°, and it thus can only "increase to" or "decrease to" 90°.

Anyway, my fastes spin creates a frequency of about 4Hz, which seems its max as things start to get unstable (the wheel)   The pulses stay in phase (0°) then.

Itsu

 
   
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Question from Partzman on OU.com:


Not sure if thats the correct question as my phase is 0°, and it thus can only "increase to" or "decrease to" 90°.

Anyway, my fastes spin creates a frequency of about 4Hz, which seems its max as things start to get unstable (the wheel)   The pulses stay in phase (0°) then.

Itsu
Yes, I realized what I had stated later on and edited the post for the right direction on phase!

At this point, I don't think rotating your wheel to a higher speed will change the phase because the PMs are hard magnetic sources whereas the induction coil reactance varies with frequency requiring more current at the lower frequencies.

Regards,
Pm

Regards,
Pm
   

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0.1 Ohm csr versus 1 Ohm csr,  what is the difference??


During my replication of the CaptainLoz device (COP=2) see here:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3951.msg85401;topicseen#msg85401

i was forced to use different probes (x1) and csr's (0.1 Ohm) as that i would do normally to stay close to the Captains device as possible.

I would normally never use x1 probes and for good reason like it is mentioned in some literature like here: https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/test-methods/oscilloscope/scope-probes.php
   
Quote
    The X1 probes are suitable for many low frequency applications.
    They offer the same input impedance of the oscilloscope which is normally 1 MΩ.
    However for applications where better accuracy is needed and as frequencies start to rise,
    other test probes are needed.

And i would normally use a 1 Ohm csr as that gives a simple 1:1 conversion from voltage to current.

The x1 probe seems to have not that much influence on the measurements, only some, so i will leave it at the above literature warnings to avoid such probes.

Concerning the 0.1 Ohm csr i made a video showing the difference between a 1 Ohm and a 0.1 Ohm csr which are enormous i think.

Not that it will explain the COP=2, but it puzzeles me how it is possible.

Is there an explaination on why in this setup there is so much difference in the shape and form of the current trace from the 0.1 Ohm csr (see screenshot 1) compared to the current probe trace and 1 Ohm voltage trace (see screenshot 2)?

Green is the current probe trace,
blue is the voltage trace across the csr's.

Video here:    https://youtu.be/VKnC-mMVU38                 

Thanks,   Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-11-18, 22:09:26 by Itsu »
   

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I used my current probe (green) and a x1 probe (blue) to do a 10s sweep on the FG from 1KHz to 1MHz on a circuit consisting of a 12V/5W automotive bulb and the test csr's, see circuit below.

I use a x1 probe and set the scope channel for the 1 Ohm csr to x1, for the 3x  0.1 Ohm csr's the scope channel was set to x10.

The current probe and 1 Ohm csr are again reasonable in line with each other, see screenshot 1.
But the 3 used 0.1 Ohm csr's are all showing to much voltage/current, almost up to 3 times.

The Dale WSR-2 SMD is the better one, especially in the higher frequency range.
The 2x 0.05 Ohm Riedons in series (0.1 Ohm) the worst, but could be due to having 2 in series.
The Ohmite 13FR100E 0.1 Ohm which i used in the video yesterday is the inbetween, but in general showing way to much voltage / current.

I frankly am amazed that these 0.1 Ohm csr's behave this way, and confirms to me that the 1 Ohm csr is far superior.


Itsu
 
   

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So knowing now that the Dale WSR-2 SMD 0.1 Ohm csr is the best performer at high frequency i used that for comparison to the current probe in the CaptainLoz device like shown in the earlier video.

At again 780Khz, AND with the RF probe tip on my x10 voltage probe, it now comes closer to the current probe (and 1 Ohm csr) signal shape and form (current probe: green, Dale: blue).
It still reads to high (500mA rms versus 352mA rms for the current probe) though, see screenshot.

https://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/WSR2R1000FEA?qs=PUEz8%2FWD9fVTh6NtLrZyAA%3D%3D
• Very low inductance 0.5 nH to 5 nH
• Excellent frequency response to 50 MHz

The ragged edges to me means still to much inductance, or rather    to much inductance in relation to its resistance if that makes sense, or.....?


Itsu
   

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First to mention is that CSR's are there in all form and shapes and are very usefull up to very low values like 0.1, 0.05 up to 0.005 Ohm etc.

In DC-like applications like current sensing in DC power supplies etc. they are accurate.

But when using them in AC-like applications we have to consider the reactance of the inductance which comes into play.

This is clearly seen in my above screenshots where already at 1MHz the values start to increase (very worse at 10MHz) because the relation between the resistance (0.1 Ohm) and the reactance becomes worse and worse.

I measured 29nH for the Dale 0.1 csr, my best performer, and at 1Mhz this reactance will be 0.182 Ohm, meaning almost twice the value of the original 0.1 Ohm we thought we had.
https://www.66pacific.com/calculators/inductive-reactance-calculator.aspx

So at my 780Khz it still has a reactance of 0.142 Ohm, thus totaling the csr to be 0.1 + 0.142 =  0.242 Ohm.

If you "correct" this 0.1 Ohm csr by using a x1 probe and set the scopes channel to x10 so the scope shows the correct value for this 0.1 Ohm resistor you are way off.

So still "in this replication case" i would use the 1 Ohm csr as this same 29nH = 0.142 Ohm has only a slight influence on the 1 Ohm (1 Ohm + 0.142 Ohm = 1.142 Ohm).
If this 1 Ohm csr is to much and disturbs the overunity effect to manifest, then a current probe could be the answer.
 

Itsu
   
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Hi Itsu,

You have been making very good tests to explore the behaviour of some current shunt resistors labeled as 'inductance free or non-inductive', offered by various manufacturers.

You found the frequency response for the Riedon flat wire type shunt resistor the worst (see your Reply #711 above) and this behaviour may 'seem' to come from being two such shunts in series.
 
However, those types are practically bended flat wires with given lengths,  I found a data sheet for them here https://riedon.com/media/pdf/MSR.pdf

Taking the 5W rated type as an example, the Length is 20.3 mm, Height is 25.4 mm,  the total 'wire' length amounts to 71.1 mm. This is the worst case from wire length point of view, the 1 W rated type has a Length of 11.4 mm, a Heigth of 5.1 mm, total length 21.6 mm.

I mention these "wire" lengths because there is a rule of thumb in RF engineering circles that a 1 cm long straight piece of conductor with about 0.5 mm OD has about L=10 nH inductance.

Aside from this 'thumb rule' (which is an approximation),  here is a wire inductance calculator http://www.consultrsr.net/resources/eis/induct5.htm  and if I fill 1 mm for wire diameter, 71.1 mm for wire length, it gives 69.78 nH. For 0.5 mm wire diameter the same length gives 79.5 nH.

I see that your Riedon shunt resistors mostly have flat wires and only their bended-down legs are round towards their solderable ends. Here is a flat wire inductor calculator for checking inductances with the actual mechanical sizes you have for those Riedon types:
https://chemandy.com/calculators/flat-wire-inductor-calculator.htm   

The inductive reactance for the 1 W and 3 W rated Riedon shunt resistors will surely be less, due to their smaller mechanical sizes with respect to my 5 W example.

I understand that the manufacturer included a Low Inductance (< 10 nH) 'data' among the description in the data sheet but this can only be considered as a marketing slogen, especially for 3 W and 5 W rated types due to their mechanical sizes. Wire lengths do count and increase self inductance.

All in all, your measurements show we all should pay serious attention to what type current shunts we use. In DC circuits such flat wire type current shunt resistors are excellent choices but in pulsed circuits, above a few kHz pulse frequencies, their inductive behaviour cause false measurement results, especially towards the some hundred kHz frequencies. Your results above clearly show this.    O0

Gyula
   

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Thanks Gyula,

its good to have such calculators for showing at what frequency a piece of wire already influences the circuit.

Regards Itsu
   

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Thanks to Gyula his calculator, especially the flat-wire-calculator:   https://chemandy.com/calculators/flat-wire-inductor-calculator.htm   i noticed that my measurements using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter were somewhat off for the Riedon flat wire csr's, the type also used by CaptainLoz.
They calculate to be 23.5nH each, so for 2 in series that would mean 47nH, while i measured 29nH for the both in series.

Not surprisingly as we are dealing with very low inductances and more important, the fact that there always are connection leads added which also have some inductance.

So i used my mini VNA (Vector Network Analyzer) the nanoVNA-F2 to characterize the used csr's.
The advantage is that the "plane of reference" (the point from where we do the actual measurement) can be pinpointed very precies, so ommiting any connection leads.

The result can be seen in the 4 screenshots below:

1st is the Dale 0.1 Ohm csr (still the best with 12nH)
2th is the Ohmite 0.1 Ohm csr (16nH)
3th are the 2 Riedon 0.05 Ohm in series (0.1 Ohm) csr (48nH)
4th is a single Riedon 0.05 Ohm csr (25nH very close to the calculated 23.5nH).

The 4 screenshots show 4 graphs each and some data taken at 3 markers.
I used a scan from 10KHz (minimum) to 10MHz.
Markers are at 809Hz (~CaptainLoz his device), 5Mhz and 10MHz.

Upper left graph is the Smith chart which is default and not very usefull here.
Upper right is Resistance (blue) and Reactance (green)
Lower left is Inductance
Lower right is Impedance (combination of resistance and reactance)

The Inductance and Resistance stays fairly flat across the 10MHz range.
The Reactance and thus the Impedance shows an increasing line with frequency as expected.

The Dale seems the best one, followed by the Ohmite and last is/are the Riedon(s).

So captainLoz would be able to calculate very accuratly the inductance of his metal bridge csr, and from that calculate the added reactance at a certain frequency using this calculator:
https://www.66pacific.com/calculators/inductive-reactance-calculator.aspx

I don't think this will explain the COP=2, but it can interfere with the measurements taken.

Regards Itsu

   

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As mentioned above, these above measurements were taken directly at the bases of the csr's, so without any connection leads, see the blue dots in the below picture.

If using a pcb with copper traces, connection pins and a standard voltage probe (without RF tip), then not only the csr leads are playing a role in added inductance (reactance), but also the copper traces, connection pins and probe leads, see red lines in the picture.

The below screenshot shows what happens when doing so.

We can directly compare the below screenshot to the last one above which is the same single Riedon bare metal 0.05 Ohm (50mOhm) csr.

The overall resistance is more then doubled at 800KHz (116mOhm), but the total impedance has skyrocketed due to the reactance (and now probably some capacitance) to almost 1 Ohm (984mOhm).


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-11-21, 15:24:18 by Itsu »
   

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What does the above means for the CaptainLoz COP=2 device?

He uses a similar bare metal csr of 0.1 Ohm but on a pcb with connection leads and the common voltage probe, see screenshot from his Video 9.

My 0.05 Ohm bare metal csr turns out to be almost 1 Ohm at 800Khz, which is 20x more!

Does this 0.1 Ohm bare metal csr suffer from the same problem?
Lets assume it will be only 10x more, so turning out to be 1 Ohm at 800KHz.

If still using a x1 probe, but x10 scope channel settings to "adjust" for the 0.1 Ohm, we now make it a 10 Ohm csr which means 10x to much current.

Will using the math function on the scope with voltage and 10x the current result in a 10x more power?   
I expect so allthough we might face some phase differences which could make it even worse or less worse.

I have ordered some 0.1 Ohm bare metal csr's like the Captain and will redo my above tests with them, so we will see.

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-11-21, 15:25:15 by Itsu »
   
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...

I have ordered some 0.1 Ohm bare metal csr's like the Captain and will redo my above tests with them, so we will see.



Hi Itsu,

It is very good you are going to explore the behaviour of those 0.1 Ohm bare metal current shunt resistors.

I think this type of resistors seen in the above picture are also called metal strip through-hole resistors.  They are excellent types for current measurements in DC circuits and possibly in the lower, some kHz AC or pulsed circuits.  Unfortunately, as the frequency of the current increases,  such metal strips with their given mechanical sizes like Length would manifest in an increasing inductive reactance (series R-L circuit) as the frequency increases.   Your swept frequency tests so far clearly indicate how important to choose the correct make and type of such shunt resistors.

It is okay that the good practice is to use as small value shunt as is possible, not to disturb significantly the circuit in which the current is to be measured, so the use of a 0.1 Ohm resistor (or even less in some cases)  chosen for this task is preferred to the ones higher than this.  However, if we are not aware of the inherent inductance that may come together with our resistor choice, then as a result we can end up with a much higher than 0.1 Ohm impedance that we have built into our circuit and we do not know about it.

Thanks for all your efforts and trouble to do these tests.

Greetings
Gyula
   

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You are welcom Gyula, i always appreciate your insigths  O0

yes, i would like to know what i am dealing with when using such csr's in my replication when working with CaptainLoz in the future.

I am lucky to have a good current probe to compare data with, so hopefully others can benefit from the outcome.

Itsu
   
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