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Author Topic: Bucking Coils  (Read 2331 times)

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I have opened this bench as a result of listener196 putting my paper's title "Bucking Coils produce Energy Gain" on the shoutbox.  Member polyrhythm then put a link to scribd.com where you can view this paper.  I don't know how this paper got into scibd.com but looking at it reminded me of things I did years ago and have forgotten.  In fact it led me to discover a folder on a memory stick that I used to get data from an old computer I had for 20 years when I updated to a new one.  The folder name is "Bucking Coils" and I had completely forgotten of its existence.  It goes back to 2012 where I initially wrote a paper looking at Osamu Ide's OU converter.  There was a member here, called EMJunkie if I remember correctly, who was very much into bucking coils.  After some disagreements he went off and set up his own forum.  It seems his bench has been deleted and I may have posted stuff there.

The thing of interest here is that a pair of identical coils that are physically separated on a transformer core (like small coils at diametrically opposite positions on a ring core) can be connected in series aiding or series opposing (bucking) to produce a total inductance value that is either four times the individual inductance value or close to zero if there is zero magnetic propagation time between the two coils.  That statement in italics is important because we know that there is a finite time for magnetic signals to travel along the core.  Transformer theory generally ignores this.  When you do the math for sinewave signals you find that the finite propagation time not only affects the inductance value of the series connected coils but also introduces a resistance value.  This resistance value is independent of the actual resistance of the coils, it is generated by the presence of the magnetic delay.  For aiding coils the resistance is positive, and for bucking coils the resistance is negative.  The math demonstrating this is quite trivial, yet in all my years of studying EM theory I have never come across this.

Negative resistance is a source of energy.  The fact that a passive device can produce energy is a huge thing to contemplate and contemporary science does not recognize its existence.  I attach a file that I wrote in 2017 that discusses this and suggests experiments to investigate it.

This paper also touches on another possibility for an overunity heater using the Curie point.  We wind a coil using resistance wire to heat the core to its Curie point using pulses of current.  A fan carries heat away so the core temperature cycles above and below that temperature.  With the right circuitry we gain energy.  It would require an array of small cores.

Smudge


Edit.  Attachment deleted because it has become corrupted. 
« Last Edit: 2026-04-10, 09:38:02 by Smudge »
   

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If the coil were made of wire as elastic as rubber and conduct as copper.  When current flows, it would stretch, increasing in diameter.and it perform mechanical work.
The magnetic energy of the rubber coil will also increase. In this case, we only need to increase the current in the coil with increasing diameter.  O0
« Last Edit: 2026-03-27, 14:25:49 by chief kolbacict »
   

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If the coil were made of wire as elastic as rubber and conduct as copper.
Why not made out of spring instead of rubber, ...like this ?:
   

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If the coil were made of wire as elastic as rubber and conduct as copper.  When current flows, it would stretch, increasing in diameter.and it perform mechanical work.
The magnetic energy of the rubber coil will also increase. In this case, we only need to increase the current in the coil with increasing diameter.  O0
And that current is feeding a voltage from the coil demanding energy from the current source that exactly matches the mechanical work performed.
   

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that exactly matches the mechanical work performed.
True. But what if we stretch the plates of a parametric capacitor using mechanical work?
The capacitor increases its energy and will supply current to the coil.
The only problem is the size.
   
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Hi Smudge,

Have you considered running your paper by Copilot AI?

It will provide a vigorous review of the concept and mathematics.

I have revisited a number of past projects using this technique to confirm the negative results I obtained and to see if the AI could suggest any modifications.

Regards  L192
   

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Would you say negative resistance is a vacuum and positive resistance is a pressure?
   

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Hi Smudge,

Have you considered running your paper by Copilot AI?

It will provide a vigorous review of the concept and mathematics.

I have revisited a number of past projects using this technique to confirm the negative results I obtained and to see if the AI could suggest any modifications.

Regards  L192

In my limited experience of using AI you get different answers when you phrase your question in different ways. It doesn't find fault in the math predicitng negative resistance but goes on to say that any energy gained from this will obey CoE, resuting in energy being supplied, but doesn't give the math to show that.  Of course that may be true, converting parts of the core into delay lines demands RF current to flow in those extra windings that could add an induced positive resistance.  A more detailed math analysis might show this but that is now beyond my capability.  IMO an experiment would be a quicker way of discovering this, that too is beyond me.

Smudge
   

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In my limited experience of using AI you get different answers when you phrase your question in different ways.
That has been my experience, too. 

Comparing different AI models I found that Claude Opus is least susceptible to leading questions.
Have you had any experience with it ?
   

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That has been my experience, too. 

Comparing different AI models I found that Claude Opus is least susceptible to leading questions.
Have you had any experience with it ?
No.  I haven't set out to try AI, it has been imposed on me by my search engines.  When I ask Google and Microsoft Edge the same question I get different answers.
   

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No.  I haven't set out to try AI, it has been imposed on me by my search engines. 
Would you like to if it did not mean installing any new programs on your computer ?
   

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Would you like to if it did not mean installing any new programs on your computer ?
I have no desire to compare different AI programs, I prefer to use what's left in my aging brain cells looking into possible OU systems.  I am surprised that a simple passive system of ring core, coils and capacitors offers negative resistance when driven at the right frequency.  No one has challenged the math, and no one has offered to carry out experiments.  :(
   
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What would be the minimum size core to experiment with?

I have Ferroxocube TN36/23/15-3R1 cores.
   

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No one has challenged the math, and no one has offered to carry out experiments.  :(
Perhaps that is because your "Acessing Hidden Magnetic energy.pdf"  attachment is corrupted.
Don't be confused by the content of your own file cache.
   
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I downloaded Smudge's pdf file on March 25 when he attached it to his Reply on that day. The file opened as usually a pdf file should.

Now I downloaded it again but now this newly downloaded file does not open, an error message appears:

Error happened at opening the file. The root object is missing or invalid.

I zipped the pdf file which opens for me since I downloaded it on March 25 and attached below. Could someone check whether it opens correctly after unzipping?

Also, I attached the pdf file I downloaded on March 25.  If it gets corrupted after you download it, then this needs some investigation? 

Gyula

EDIT   I downloaded the pdf file I just uploaded below and it opens correctly.  However, the pdf file in Smudge's very first post he had attached it does not open for me if I download.  Something damaged it ? and since when ?
« Last Edit: 2026-04-09, 23:47:32 by gyula »
   

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The PDF I downloaded the day posted and again yesterday, although I wish I could get hold of a core to try some experiments.
   

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The PDF I downloaded the day posted and again yesterday, although I wish I could get hold of a core to try some experiments.
Clear your file cache, redownload and report.
   

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I tried downloading my original attachment and also Gyula's two attachments and they were all corrupted. and failed to open.  As a precaution I have removed the original.  I now need to look at other attachments to see whether the whole site has been infected or just my file.

Smudge
   

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OK, I have tried various downloads of files from other benches and they all work OK.  It seems my pdf attachment on my first post on this bench has been corrupted here in this OUR site.  My original in my computer is OK.  So here it is again for anyone to see.

Smudge
   
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Smudge, the file is ok, it opens correctly.

Gyula
   

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Thanks Gyula, I did check that a download worked OK.  What worries me is who managed to create the original corruption and why.  Is it connected to the outage that Verpies just sorted?  Had I inadvertently put the cat among the pigeons by posting something that some high powered organisation doesn't want people to see?  I am looking for guidance as to whether this bench should be made private before the site reopens to visitors. 
   
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The strange thing is that both the pdf file in my zipfile and the separate pdf file I uploaded last night reports damaged file for me now when I download them.  Last night they were correctly open when I checked them after the uploading.

The pdf file I downloaded on March 25 from Smudge's 1st post still opens fine when I open them from my hard drive.  Also, the pdf in the zipped file and the separate pdf file I uploaded last night work works ok when I open them from my hard drive.

 Gyula 
« Last Edit: 2026-04-10, 15:13:27 by gyula »
   

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@Smudge.  About the subject matter of your paper.  I find the first arrangement with a ferromagnetic substance transition through the Curie temperature compelling but impractical because thermal transitions are slow.  I find difficult to accept the other one because while I accept that the magnetization of a ferromagnetic material has a finite propagation speed, I don't accept that the near H field has the same. Near-field H is not to be conflated with the magnetic field in far-field EM radiation which does have a finite propagation speed, but in this radiation the E and H fields are in-phase while in near-field they are not.

P.S.
The attached paper also distinguishes between these two regimes of magnetic fields.
   

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@Smudge.  About the subject matter of your paper.  I find the first arrangement with a ferromagnetic substance transition through the Curie temperature compelling but impractical because thermal transitions are slow.  I find difficult to accept the other one because while I accept that the magnetization of a ferromagnetic material has a finite propagation speed, I don't accept that the near H field has the same. Near-field H is not to be conflated with the magnetic field in far-field EM radiation which does have a finite propagation speed, but in this radiation the E and H fields are in-phase while in near-field they are not.

P.S.
The attached paper also distinguishes between these two types of magnetic fields.
I understand E and H fields not being in phase in the near field, I spent much of my life working with near fields for proximity sensors.  But with respect I don't see where this applies to the magnetization wave within a length of permeable core material where the E field of interest is external to the material.  I would see it applying to a coil fully immersed within permeable material (like a coil being immersed in air but we have replaced the air) where radiation from the coil in all directions through the material would obey near and far field laws.  The ring core is not that situation.  I would point out that magnetic propagation delay is accepted as producing a loss in the guise of magnetic viscosity; where is the evidence for where that lost energy goes, or do we just assume it goes as heat or some form of radiation?  Is it just possible that science has missed a trick here, that it disappears into some other quantum sink (zero-point energy?) and we can change things so as to receive energy from that sink?  Surely that possibility needs exploring?
   

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But with respect I don't see where this applies to the magnetization wave within a length of permeable core material
The speed of H field in vacuum is not the same as the speed of the magnetization wave within a length of permeable core material.
   
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