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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 218922 times)
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@Centraflow

Related to the Nunnerley's paper: I'm not sure that the extra electrons on a capacitor plate can go faster than all the other free electrons. The contrary is even suggested by the fact that we do not know how to distinguish the ones from the others, their role surely changes according to their positions and the obstacles encountered in the metal during their circulation, related to the resistance of the conductor.

So if they do not go faster, then the displacement of the electric field should be made extremely slow to be compatible with the speed of the electrons in a conductor (at most a few mm/s).


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@Centraflow

Related to the Nunnerley's paper: I'm not sure that the extra electrons on a capacitor plate can go faster than all the other free electrons. The contrary is even suggested by the fact that we do not know how to distinguish the ones from the others, their role surely changes according to their positions and the obstacles encountered in the metal during their circulation, related to the resistance of the conductor.

So if they do not go faster, then the displacement of the electric field should be made extremely slow to be compatible with the speed of the electrons in a conductor (at most a few mm/s).

Hi F6FLT

Thanks for your comments, the paper and centraflow are one of the same (G6GVA is my UK call sign).

Well I see it as a sort of race track where each positive plate which is supplying the electrons, is sling shooting around the track at an ever-increasing frequency by the harmonics created by the relation of the inputs. This may also be done by one frequency but with 3 phases 120º out of phase with one another. This can create additive harmonics (triplens) and high current in the negative plate.

But I am not sure atm if the output seen is due to vortex type input of charge from the Earth/Ionosphere electrical charge, or the creation of high current in the neutral along with a voltage boost in the positive. I lean towards the former, at least we know there is a charge between Earth and Ionosphere, and maybe this is how we can draw from it, electrostatically, time will tell.

73's

Mike 8)


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Hi F6FLT

Thanks for your comments, the paper and centraflow are one of the same (G6GVA is my UK call sign).

Well I see it as a sort of race track where each positive plate which is supplying the electrons, is sling shooting around the track at an ever-increasing frequency by the harmonics created by the relation of the inputs. This may also be done by one frequency but with 3 phases 120º out of phase with one another. This can create additive harmonics (triplens) and high current in the negative plate.
...

Hi mike,

Great! I see that there are many ham radios meeting around exotic experiments on energy. The radio experimentation that surely motivated our vocation must no longer be enough for us!  :)

If the principle is to move charges by the quasi-electrostatic influence of a moving field, there should be many ways to do so, like the one you indicated with 3 phases. Two phases could also be used: two crossed electric fields with signals of the same frequency but in quadrature (in the same way as the needle of a compass can be rotated with crossed magnetic fields in quadrature). I had already tried that unsuccessfully but quickly. Your diagram encourages me to go back to it, this kind of setup should work, I don't see anything theoretical that would prevent it.

However, I do not believe at all that the charges of the atmosphere or the ionosphere act here in any way.

73
François

« Last Edit: 2019-02-01, 11:51:13 by F6FLT »


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Quote:
Great! I see that there are many ham radios meeting around exotic experiments on energy.

Unquote

Ha Ha, low sunspot activity may be ;)

If not the charge between Earth and Ionosphere, then that leaves the Earth's magnetic field because it is not NMR, and from my results, it seems to be very static active to the point of feeling ill.

I have my test rig running but unstable, one minute running great and then the output drops to near half. Twice I have blown the low-frequency gate driver, I am now going over everything before going on with testing, soldering SMD driver chips is not fun. :'(

Regards

Mike 8)

PS the quadratura idea is interesting for a simpler setup :-\



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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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Both the TPU and several UFO's (sound recordings per Paul Hill) share a 5kHz frequency.
   
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Both the TPU and several singers (sound recordings per Spotify) share a 5kHz frequency.
 C.C


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I realized that if we move electrons with a moving field influencing excessive charges between capacitor plates, as in the Centraflow scheme, then yes, it should work, but it's not necessarily detectable.

Suppose we have the equivalent of a charge in a capacity of 1nF at 100v, i.e. Q=C.U=10-7 C, and we move this charge with our moving field at a speed of the order of magnitude of the electrons in a conductor, e.g. 1mm/s. That gives us a current of 10-10 A = 0.1 nA!
So in practice, we won't see anything.
This difference compared to a "normal" current in a conductor is considerable, because in a conductor there are as many free electrons as there are atoms, this number is considerable, whereas in a capacitor, the number of charges that can be stored is in comparison extremely low.
A common current of 1 A is 1 Coulomb/s. But to have 1 C in a 1 nF capacitor, you would need a voltage of 1 billion volts!

 For the purpose indicated, it is therefore necessary that the conductor allows a considerably higher drift velocity of the electrons, to obtain common currents by compensating the low number of electrons by the speed. I don't see how.
Even if we could think that the drift velocity is larger on the surface of a conductor than in the bulk, this remains to be demonstrated, it is still a factor 109 that is at stake, which seems utopian to me.
We can also think that by moving the field faster, the electrons will go faster. Probably, but to what limit? Is there not a risk of losing them quickly because they will no longer be able to follow the field because of the resistance of the conductor?




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Electrons already move at Fermi velocity from thermal noise in a conductor without current flow. With current flow they grind to a near halt at um/sec (e.g. for 1 ampere flow).

Perhaps the trick is to accelerate the electrons in the conductor without trying to close the circuit as this creates a current which puts some braking effect on electrons. Or perhaps accelerate the free charge which could possibly drag the electrons along.

Other possibility is to find a way to null the effect of the current so the electrons can continue to float freely. (per SM)

The idea would be that the high speed electrons are a catalyst, a means to an end but not to be tapped directly, rather collect the effects of high speed electrons engaging in random high speed collisions which can emit charged particles.

Maybe this is why it was called a "collector"

I would like to explore these areas, however misguided, as I have failed at all of my other ideas including all attempts at replicating others OU ideas.


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Perhaps the trick is to accelerate the electrons in the conductor without trying to close the circuit as this creates a current which puts some braking effect on electrons. Or perhaps accelerate the free charge which could possibly drag the electrons along.

Other possibility is to find a way to null the effect of current so the electrons can continue to float freely.


Charged particles can be accelerated with a changing magnetic field via the Lorentz force.  The greater and faster this change, the larger the impact.

If there is also a static magnetic field present, these accelerated particles should then be deflected into spiral orbits around that static B field (this is also Lorentz force but from the POV of the charged particle).


With the right configuration, this might allow charge to be built-up in space faster than it would be naturally dissipated.
That would lead to relativistic effects which should provide several pathways to synthesizing energy.

Or not, I'm still spitballing here.C.C C.C    Although like other builders, one of my TPU's did turn out to be a migraine headache generator. ???
« Last Edit: 2019-02-02, 05:15:23 by Reiyuki »
   
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The Lorentz force only deflects charges that already have a velocity v. The speed module does not change, only its direction. It is an acceleration in the sense that their speed does not remain constant but only in direction. Lorentz's force does not provide energy. The energy is supplied only by the source that forces the electrons to go at velocity v.


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...
Perhaps the trick is to accelerate the electrons in the conductor without trying to close the circuit as this creates a current which puts some braking effect on electrons.

This occurs when the voltage at the input of a coil is rapidly increased. The current begins to flow when at the other end it does not yet come out.
But in my opinion even this incoming current is subject to the resistance of the conductor.
If this were not the case, then a current at the input of a coil would produce less thermal energy in a coil if it is square than if it is continuous, for the same rms value. It's doubtful, but maybe it's worth checking out.
There was a similar device made by Rosemary Ainslie, who claimed on the contrary that the thermal energy generated in a resistive coil by a variable current was higher than the energy put at the input. On ou.com TK has demonstrated beyond any doubt her measurement errors but I don't know if we could conclude that the opposite would be true.

Quote
Other possibility is to find a way to null the effect of the current so the electrons can continue to float freely. (per SM)

The idea would be that the high speed electrons are a catalyst, a means to an end but not to be tapped directly, rather collect the effects of high speed electrons engaging in random high speed collisions which can emit charged particles.
...

This way has been already explored with plasma at a low pressure or with an electronic beam in a vacuum tube.


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F6FLT said:

Quote
This way has been already explored with plasma at a low pressure or with an electronic beam in a vacuum tube.

Some of us worked diligently to reproduce the effect described in the Thonemann patent, to no avail.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.400

I would be interested in your findings on the subject.

Regards


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F6FLT said:

Some of us worked diligently to reproduce the effect described in the Thonemann patent, to no avail.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.400

I would be interested in your findings on the subject.

Regards

Well ion you just blew my mind on that patent, I had not seen that before or can't remember due to other things on my plate.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif/550px-Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif

Coils change sign between charge and discharge, and what if the coil is also one plate of a capacitor?

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif/550px-Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif

Coils change sign between charge and discharge, and what if the coil is also one plate of a capacitor?

Regards

Mike 8)

That's a very nice illustration, wish I had used it when I started the "Uniderectional acceleration of electrons" thread.

I'm trying to prove on the bench that the capacitor tubes can also be bifilar wire alternately  or quadrature switched, ends not connected.

I have tried something like this with an iron wire core, but need to rethink my failed experiment.

Regards


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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif/550px-Linear_accelerator_animation_16frames_1.6sec.gif

You guys always find such cool links ;D O0

I wonder, wouldn't a very fast chirp-wave/ramped wave create this same effect in a long solenoid coil (ie: Tesla coil secondary)?
   
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Some of us worked diligently to reproduce the effect described in the Thonemann patent, to no avail.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=302.400

I would be interested in your findings on the subject.

Regards

The overall idea of the Thonemann patent sounds interesting but the implementation seems complicated.

From what I understand, the temporal variation of the magnetic field of each winding creates eddy currents in the plasma, and these ionic current loops are accelerated by the spatial magnetic field gradient from one section to the next.
So we have to make the temporal aspect, the spatial aspect, and the linear velocity work together. It is not a small job!

Do I understand correctly or am I completely missing the question?


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Thonemann's method uses a magnetic field:

The invention is based on the phenomenon that the progressive magnetic held of a travelling wave (for example the travelling wave produced in a loaded transmission line or by spaced coils excited in different phases) exerts a unidirectional drag upon electrons in the field and that conversely a unidirectional motion of electrons tends to produce or enhance a travelling wave.

This reminds me of the oscillating ring things I looked at many years ago.  They were similar but without the gas tube.

I don't see any way there could be a mechanism for gain.
   
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We can never predict a gain based on common scientific theories. Their internal coherence implies energy conservation.
To find a gain, it is necessary to explore the unknown in new or little used ways.

Thonemann's patent seems to me to meet this criterion. Moreover, it has similarities with this paper from H Ardavan that I have already given, where the magnetic field is replaced by an electric field, and the travelling wave is here a displacement current in a dielectric common to a line of sequentially switched capacitors.
Maxwell's equations refer to a current density. But a current density is not necessarily related to a current in a conductor or in a plasma, it can be related to a displacement current in a dielectric. And a displacement current can be produced in a dielectric without speed limit, so we can hope for new things.
I think Ardavan's experiment is more innovative than Thonemann's patent, but both are close and to be explored.


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Remove this comment if off topic or placed from my ignorance of the subject matter.
very recently I was made aware of some experiments which made claims .
the claim being that UV light greatly enhances the flow in a plasma [or spark Gap]

an experiment was proposed to establish a spark gap and then dial back the input until it stops
and then start adding UV light ,it was also claimed the plasma will follow a UV laser path much as flowing along a wire [does this mean bends too?mirrors??]

In my minds eye this is a remarkable claim...and apparently has actual potential applications [explained by a few I've asked about this ...as a Switch mechanism ??
but again could just be my layman's perspective on that field ?

UV LED's were said to also work ??
also very cheap UV lasers

To add this experiment is on the schedule to be done ,will report findings,or the member here who shared this will
once he finds time to do the experiment ,I have connected with a fellow from another forum with a much biigger
gas UV laser ,he has offered to send a laser for tests ?


   
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Remove this comment if off topic or placed from my ignorance of the subject matter.
very recently I was made aware of some experiments which made claims .
the claim being that UV light greatly enhances the flow in a plasma [or spark Gap]

an experiment was proposed to establish a spark gap and then dial back the input until it stops
and then start adding UV light ,it was also claimed the plasma will follow a UV laser path much as flowing along a wire [does this mean bends too?mirrors??]

In my minds eye this is a remarkable claim...and apparently has actual potential applications [explained by a few I've asked about this ...as a Switch mechanism ??
but again could just be my layman's perspective on that field ?

UV LED's were said to also work ??
also very cheap UV lasers

To add this experiment is on the schedule to be done ,will report findings,or the member here who shared this will
once he finds time to do the experiment ,I have connected with a fellow from another forum with a much biigger
gas UV laser ,he has offered to send a laser for tests ?

Dear Chet

For a spark to jump a gap it must first ionize the space between the electrodes

UV light does ionize the air in the vicinity of the lamp, therefore it is no mystery that it would allow a spark to jump a gap at a lower voltage by pre-ionizing the space.

The same would happen if a lightly radioactive emitter were in the vicinity. I have some neon lamps that are painted with radium to lower the firing voltage. These were used as switching devices in old test equipment from the 50's or 60's

I suspect you could also use RF energy in the gap to cause local ionization.


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It's turtles all the way down
We can never predict a gain based on common scientific theories. Their internal coherence implies energy conservation.
To find a gain, it is necessary to explore the unknown in new or little used ways.

Thonemann's patent seems to me to meet this criterion. Moreover, it has similarities with this paper from H Ardavan that I have already given, where the magnetic field is replaced by an electric field, and the travelling wave is here a displacement current in a dielectric common to a line of sequentially switched capacitors.
Maxwell's equations refer to a current density. But a current density is not necessarily related to a current in a conductor or in a plasma, it can be related to a displacement current in a dielectric. And a displacement current can be produced in a dielectric without speed limit, so we can hope for new things.
I think Ardavan's experiment is more innovative than Thonemann's patent, but both are close and to be explored.

I agree with your point of view.

Would be interesting if Ardavan's experiment were arranged in a loop and had a detection method that would automatically control frequency of the switching pulses to track the desired speed setpoints.


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tExB=qr
Let's say, hypothetically, that someone built a device like a TPU, and this person wanted to use output electrical power to power static DC field coils with the intent of increasing the power output by increasing the DC magnetic field.  This assumes that the DC magnetic field is a contributing factor to operation, and that increasing the static DC magnetic field WILL increase the device output.

This static DC field coil does not see the output, so there is no direct feedback between these two elements.

Assume that transients and variations in the power from the output to the static DC coil will directly effect the device output.

So you can see the possible scenario: power out increases DC field increases power out increases DC field boom!

How can you limit the energy delivered to the static DC field coil so that the device does not exceed the capacity of the wire elements?

   
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It's turtles all the way down
Let's say, hypothetically, that someone built a device like a TPU, and this person wanted to use output electrical power to power static DC field coils with the intent of increasing the power output by increasing the DC magnetic field.  This assumes that the DC magnetic field is a contributing factor to operation, and that increasing the static DC magnetic field WILL increase the device output.

This static DC field coil does not see the output, so there is no direct feedback between these two elements.

Assume that transients and variations in the power from the output to the static DC coil will directly effect the device output.

So you can see the possible scenario: power out increases DC field increases power out increases DC field boom!

How can you limit the energy delivered to the static DC field coil so that the device does not exceed the capacity of the wire elements?


I have many times now pointed out that there is a technique in compound wound generators that accomplishes this, as well as performing very tight load regulation over a certain range.

This technique has been perfected over one century or more of R&D in generator technology. More so, at a certain level of output with the appropriate tiny circuit, current foldback can be incorporated, keeping everything very safe.

Read up on this and it's variants, because it is a clever yet simple way of getting load regulation, and worked out a very long time ago:

http://www.electrical-engineering-assignment.com/compound-wound-generator


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tExB=qr
Thanks.  I'll add that to my notes.
   
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