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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 290393 times)
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1981
We can never predict a gain based on common scientific theories. Their internal coherence implies energy conservation.
To find a gain, it is necessary to explore the unknown in new or little used ways.

Thonemann's patent seems to me to meet this criterion. Moreover, it has similarities with this paper from H Ardavan that I have already given, where the magnetic field is replaced by an electric field, and the travelling wave is here a displacement current in a dielectric common to a line of sequentially switched capacitors.
Maxwell's equations refer to a current density. But a current density is not necessarily related to a current in a conductor or in a plasma, it can be related to a displacement current in a dielectric. And a displacement current can be produced in a dielectric without speed limit, so we can hope for new things.
I think Ardavan's experiment is more innovative than Thonemann's patent, but both are close and to be explored.


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Remove this comment if off topic or placed from my ignorance of the subject matter.
very recently I was made aware of some experiments which made claims .
the claim being that UV light greatly enhances the flow in a plasma [or spark Gap]

an experiment was proposed to establish a spark gap and then dial back the input until it stops
and then start adding UV light ,it was also claimed the plasma will follow a UV laser path much as flowing along a wire [does this mean bends too?mirrors??]

In my minds eye this is a remarkable claim...and apparently has actual potential applications [explained by a few I've asked about this ...as a Switch mechanism ??
but again could just be my layman's perspective on that field ?

UV LED's were said to also work ??
also very cheap UV lasers

To add this experiment is on the schedule to be done ,will report findings,or the member here who shared this will
once he finds time to do the experiment ,I have connected with a fellow from another forum with a much biigger
gas UV laser ,he has offered to send a laser for tests ?


   
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Posts: 3537
It's turtles all the way down
Remove this comment if off topic or placed from my ignorance of the subject matter.
very recently I was made aware of some experiments which made claims .
the claim being that UV light greatly enhances the flow in a plasma [or spark Gap]

an experiment was proposed to establish a spark gap and then dial back the input until it stops
and then start adding UV light ,it was also claimed the plasma will follow a UV laser path much as flowing along a wire [does this mean bends too?mirrors??]

In my minds eye this is a remarkable claim...and apparently has actual potential applications [explained by a few I've asked about this ...as a Switch mechanism ??
but again could just be my layman's perspective on that field ?

UV LED's were said to also work ??
also very cheap UV lasers

To add this experiment is on the schedule to be done ,will report findings,or the member here who shared this will
once he finds time to do the experiment ,I have connected with a fellow from another forum with a much biigger
gas UV laser ,he has offered to send a laser for tests ?

Dear Chet

For a spark to jump a gap it must first ionize the space between the electrodes

UV light does ionize the air in the vicinity of the lamp, therefore it is no mystery that it would allow a spark to jump a gap at a lower voltage by pre-ionizing the space.

The same would happen if a lightly radioactive emitter were in the vicinity. I have some neon lamps that are painted with radium to lower the firing voltage. These were used as switching devices in old test equipment from the 50's or 60's

I suspect you could also use RF energy in the gap to cause local ionization.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
Group: Elite
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Posts: 3537
It's turtles all the way down
We can never predict a gain based on common scientific theories. Their internal coherence implies energy conservation.
To find a gain, it is necessary to explore the unknown in new or little used ways.

Thonemann's patent seems to me to meet this criterion. Moreover, it has similarities with this paper from H Ardavan that I have already given, where the magnetic field is replaced by an electric field, and the travelling wave is here a displacement current in a dielectric common to a line of sequentially switched capacitors.
Maxwell's equations refer to a current density. But a current density is not necessarily related to a current in a conductor or in a plasma, it can be related to a displacement current in a dielectric. And a displacement current can be produced in a dielectric without speed limit, so we can hope for new things.
I think Ardavan's experiment is more innovative than Thonemann's patent, but both are close and to be explored.

I agree with your point of view.

Would be interesting if Ardavan's experiment were arranged in a loop and had a detection method that would automatically control frequency of the switching pulses to track the desired speed setpoints.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Tinkerer
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Posts: 3941
tExB=qr
Let's say, hypothetically, that someone built a device like a TPU, and this person wanted to use output electrical power to power static DC field coils with the intent of increasing the power output by increasing the DC magnetic field.  This assumes that the DC magnetic field is a contributing factor to operation, and that increasing the static DC magnetic field WILL increase the device output.

This static DC field coil does not see the output, so there is no direct feedback between these two elements.

Assume that transients and variations in the power from the output to the static DC coil will directly effect the device output.

So you can see the possible scenario: power out increases DC field increases power out increases DC field boom!

How can you limit the energy delivered to the static DC field coil so that the device does not exceed the capacity of the wire elements?

   
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It's turtles all the way down
Let's say, hypothetically, that someone built a device like a TPU, and this person wanted to use output electrical power to power static DC field coils with the intent of increasing the power output by increasing the DC magnetic field.  This assumes that the DC magnetic field is a contributing factor to operation, and that increasing the static DC magnetic field WILL increase the device output.

This static DC field coil does not see the output, so there is no direct feedback between these two elements.

Assume that transients and variations in the power from the output to the static DC coil will directly effect the device output.

So you can see the possible scenario: power out increases DC field increases power out increases DC field boom!

How can you limit the energy delivered to the static DC field coil so that the device does not exceed the capacity of the wire elements?


I have many times now pointed out that there is a technique in compound wound generators that accomplishes this, as well as performing very tight load regulation over a certain range.

This technique has been perfected over one century or more of R&D in generator technology. More so, at a certain level of output with the appropriate tiny circuit, current foldback can be incorporated, keeping everything very safe.

Read up on this and it's variants, because it is a clever yet simple way of getting load regulation, and worked out a very long time ago:

http://www.electrical-engineering-assignment.com/compound-wound-generator


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

Group: Tinkerer
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Posts: 3941
tExB=qr
Thanks.  I'll add that to my notes.
   
Group: Experimentalist
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It has been awhile since this thread was active but I see it is public so I would like to post an observation I have made.  I was going thru some of my old files and came upon the attached simulation.  I do this from time to time to see if I may have missed something as it seems I did with this particular circuit.  The idea here was to take the reflection that returns to the input of a shorted symmetrical transmission line and charge a capacitor to see if the resulting energy levels had a gain.  Although the sim uses an ideal delay line, I believe a bench transmission line will result in the same effect but with some additional losses.

The first pix is the schematic.

The second pix is the plot of the entire charge cycle of C1 from 0v to 36.82v.  We see from the plot math that the input energy taken from the 20v DC supply V1 is 29.444mJ .  We also can see that the energy in C1 at the end of 563us is 27.113mJ .  Disregard the label on the math plot calculation for "V(vc)*V(vc)*40e-6/2J" of mOhm/s which should really be mJoules.  Never have figured out how to change those labels!  Anyway, if the plot math isn't believable to you, simply calculate the energy in C1 yourself.  So, we see for the entire charge period to 563us, energy is conserved.

The third pix now shows an abbreviated cycle that starts at 400us and ends at 563us.  We now compare energies and see that it takes 5.925mJ to recharge C1 from 17.786mJ to 27.113mJ !  This is a gain of
(.027113-.017786)/.05925 = 1.57 .  We now see that in this time period on the charge curve of C1, there is a gain!

With the starting voltage across C1 = 29.821v at 400us and the ending voltage = 36.81 at 563us, we calculate the average to be 33.31v DC over the charge cycle of 163us.  If we now connect the proper load to discharge C1 from 36.81v - 29.82v = 6.989v in the same time as the charge time of 163us and assuming relatively constant current for easy calcs at this point, this would require a current of di = dE*C/dt = 1.715A .  With an average output voltage of 33.31v over the 163us discharge time, this requires a load of 33.31/1.715 = 19.42 ohms.  The output over 163us would be 1.715^2*19.42 = 57.1W but this is 1/2 of the total cycle so the effective power would be 28.5W. 

With a total cycle of 326us, the pulsing frequency in the delay line would be 3.067KHz!  Sound familiar???

I don't know how I missed this earlier but of course I could be missing something!?!

I've also included the .asc file below.

Edit: Thanks to Gyula, he pointed out my mistake in that the energy levels should be in mJoules and not Joules.  Corrections are made in the text above.

Regards,
Pm   
« Last Edit: 2024-02-28, 20:20:19 by partzman »
   

Group: Tinkerer
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Posts: 3941
tExB=qr
Without the front end of the device, regulating the output isn't necessary as you don't have one.
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1671
See the  corrections to my reply #507 above thanks to Gyula

Regards,
Pm
« Last Edit: 2024-02-28, 20:21:56 by partzman »
   
Group: Experimentalist
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Posts: 1671
Please refer to the attached sim plot.

Upon closer examination, the apparent gain initially thought to exist in this delay line over the last part of the cycle, is being supplied by the current build up in the inductive elements of the line.  This energy in the inductive elements is created by the first half of operation and when taking energy measurements over the last half is not accounted for as the source of gain.  Therefore, the device remains conservative as the measurements over the complete cycle confirm.

Regards,
Pm
   
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