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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 52076 times)

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1st ferrite gizmo test using the nanoVNA, see setup and result in screenshot.

My nanoVNA has a different output compared to verpies his screenshots, but i think the graphs show similar traces and indicate a "low pass" curve (blue).

This would mean that at 1.2 - 1.5Mhz we should have almost no attenuation between secondary and antenna.

Not sure how to interpret the phase delay (green) as i think Vasik has mentioned we would need to have a 180° phase shift between secondary and antenna.

Itsu
   

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...i think the graphs show similar traces and indicate a "low pass" curve (blue).
This would mean that at 1.2 - 1.5Mhz we should have almost no attenuation between secondary and antenna.
I agree.
Keep in mind that the length of the gizmo's wire adds up to the length of the TC/Kacher's secondary despite the turns direction being reversed 50/50.

Not sure how to interpret the phase delay (green) as i think Vasik has mentioned we would need to have a 180° phase shift between secondary and antenna.
You'll never get that much out of the gizmo alone but the remaining components might contribute to more phase shift.
I think your VNA can display the phase shift in degrees if you ask it to.
   

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Quote
I think your VNA can display the phase shift in degrees if you ask it to.


Yes it does, and indeed, at 1.5MHz (marker 1) the phase shift is only -17°

Itsu
   
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I do not understand.
What is "node frequency" ?


What is "gizmo coil combination" ? Does the "coil" in that phrase belong to the "gizmo" or are are you referring to another "coil" which is external to the "gizmo" ?

Sorry for not being clear, the lowest point on your above tests (gizmo014. JPG) where the '1' is. The frequency you provided is my reference. I should have said the time period at the frequency given or 1/f. This would have been a more precise description of the suggested pulse width.
The generally accepted term 'gizmo' for the ferrite coil with the two opposing windings is what I am referring to. The same as in the replication and your DUT.
I hope I've clarified this satisfactorily.
   

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Now with the ferrite gizmo removed from the circuit also, i connected the kacher secondary with a piece of straight wire to the antenna.

The self resonance frequency is the same as with the gizmo installed; 1.82MHz.

So at a continued stream of pulses at 1.82MHz, the picked up signal from the secondary is at max. and shows a nice sine wave, see screenshot.

Further tests are not possible as this seems to be a special frequency range as all my (3) DECT telephones throughout the house are keep on ringing randomly.


Tests yesterday with several other kacher coils (see picture) show similar low outputs when using the low (4 pulses) duty cycle, so i guess that is normal and the only way to increase the output with such low duty cycle is to increase the input voltage.

Itsu
   

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Further tests are not possible as this seems to be a special frequency range as all my (3) DECT telephones throughout the house are keep on ringing randomly.
The DECT base must be getting EMI through the power line.  To test this hypothesis, power the base from an isolated battery for a moment.

Tests yesterday with several other kacher coils (see picture) show similar low outputs when using the low (4 pulses) duty cycle, so i guess that is normal and the only way to increase the output with such low duty cycle is to increase the input voltage.
How long are your arcs with continuous driving pulses and 24V on the drain ?
If Vasik does not have a better idea, that might be the only way;  Don't damage your gear.
   

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Yes EMI comes into the base station (bottom floor) somehow, probably through the power lines.   
Will see what i can do about that.


Yesterday i had some 1mm white arcs with a screwdriver touching the antenna.

Itsu
   

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Yes EMI comes into the base station (bottom floor) somehow, probably through the power lines.   
Will see what i can do about that.
Yesterday i had some 1mm white arcs with a screwdriver touching the antenna.

Hi Itsu,

I suggest using battery for powering device.
If that is too difficult, you need check that your PSU properly isolated.
Old style PSUs with transformer don't work well, I mean RF easily pass through big trafo into mains.
Many people reported damaging home appliances, even neighbor's appliances while experimenting with kacher powered from mains.
Also do not use ground wire from mains as a ground.

Regards,
Vasik   




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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Vasik,

the 24V PS i am using for "powering the device" is a simple 10A switched PS with extra filtering at its output (24V side).

I could add a ferrite toroid at its 240V side to minimize the RF feedback into the mains.

But i think the RF comes into the mains via the DECT telephone mains connection and/or the measurement equipment mains connections.

The ringing of the DECT telephones only occurs around the present 1.8MHz frequency, so i guess its somehow very sensible for that specific frequency.
Adding the grenade will lower it to 1.2MHz which probably will mitigate this ringing problem.

The ground i use for the device is connected to the copper piping for the water supply, but at the end will join the ground from mains.

Itsu
   

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But i think the RF comes into the mains via the DECT telephone mains connection and/or the measurement equipment mains connections.
Could it be also through the telephone line?
In that case - choke, choke, chokes...
   
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   Itsu:
   Well I hope that the fillings in your teeth don't ring with the radio moscow song, now.
   But the 1mm sparks are still pretty small, as that only relates to about 1000v, or so.
   I now understand why Stalker and other needed to use such a high input voltage, for their Kacher circuits.
 As that high an input of 150v to 200v would toast my device. And, phones would be ringing at the house next door.
But, i find it strange that Stalker does not mention anything about the use of those higher voltages, nor if there are
 any risks to avoid.

   NickZ
   

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   But the 1mm sparks are still pretty small, as that only relates to about 1000v, or so.
It seems small to me, too.

In this video Stalker shows 3mm arcs being picked up by one winding.
How long are yours ?
   
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It seems small to me, too.

In this video Stalker shows 3mm arcs being picked up by one winding.
How long are yours ?


   Verpies:  Stalker is showing the HV output from the grenade coil. And not from the direct Kacher antenna output.
So, that is not what the signal should look like at the antenna. But, may still be somewhat similar to the antenna signal output.
   My output from the simple kacher is about 1cm long. And I have shown that it can light a 50w bulb, as well as partially lighting a 100w bulb. And that is at the grenade output coil, not just at the antenna
   Geofusion has several videos showing how his controlable Akula kacher works. And is also showing the strong  noisy white streamers, also about 1cm long, and the smell of ozone.  But, we don't really need those big long streamers. As Ruslan had mentioned they don't need to be very strong, to do the job of PP signal interference.
   

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Verpies:  Stalker is showing the HV output from the grenade coil. And not from the direct Kacher antenna output.
So, that is not what the signal should look like at the antenna. But, may still be somewhat similar to the antenna signal output.
Yeah, the electric field strength at the antenna should be even stronger than at the grenade coil.

My output from the simple kacher is about 1cm long.
That is a very good result if you are using 24V as the power supply.

What grounding layout do you use ?

In that Stalker's video he seems to be using this one:
   

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Before someone writes that Stalker's wire is grounded at the end, I'd like to remind you that a 5mm diameter wire which is 30m long has the reactance of 412Ω @ 1.2MHz, even if its resistance is only 0.5Ω.
   

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So complete schematic is like this.
Now question: what L should be to have maximum voltage on capacitor ?

Vasik


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Is L the inductance of the Gizmo ?
   

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Is L the inductance of the Gizmo ?

Yes, and I guess Tesla coil inductance also need to be taken into account.



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Now question: what L should be to have maximum voltage on capacitor ?
Inductance (L) is a lumped element property.
Because the current is not the same along this circuit - it cannot be answered unambiguously because of this.

Also, I think the wavelengths must be split evenly about the driving coil, like this:
   

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My ferrite gizmo coil measures around 3.8uH both on the LCR meter (@ 100KHz) as the VNA (@ 1.5MHz), the secondary measures 465uH (LCR @ 100KHz).


I have re-installed the Grenade L5 / Inductor L4 but still without the ferrite gizmo and saw the kacher secondary/antenna resonance frequency drop to 1.4MHz.

With a continues stream of pulses there is more output on the kacher, but still the DECT's start ringing (only the base station at the ground floor has the telephone line connection (i am on the 2nd floor)).

Because of that i was not able to check on the sparks.

I noticed some other effects, like the output bulb (25W almost fully on) goes off when moving the kacher's primary more to the top of the secondary.
Looks like without the ferrite gizmo there is more "influence" on the Grenade/inductor causing the push pull going off resonance.

Itsu
   
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   Itsu:
   Generally there is a higher output with the gizmo. I think that it drops the voltage, and raises the amps. But, not sure of that.
   Perhaps you can find one like is shown by Akula/Ruslan. Which do look like the ones that come in old radios. There may be some difference. Mine is a bar, and not a rod. Seam to work well for me, and it did come out of a radio. At first I did have a round rod ferrite from another radio, but I dropped it and it broke. I did glue it back together though, but decided to use the bar one, instead.

   NickZ
   

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Nick,

as verpies mentioned here:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg94017#msg94017   the ferrite gizmo seems to act as a low pass filter meaning:  "leaving the amplitude of the fundamental self-oscillation frequency (1.2MHz) almost unaffected and attenuate the higher overtones" (harmonics).

So we end up with a clean base signal (1.2Mhz) at the antenna without much harmonics.

My present ferrite is a new rod, but meant as a replacement MW antenna in radio's and measurements show it does act as a low pass filter.

Itsu
   
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   Itsu:
   Ok, so you are now using a new ferrite rod, which is meant to be used in radios.
   Has this new rod, improved the signal compared to the older ferrite rod, or not.
   How long are your arcs, and streamers now?

   NickZ
   
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Yeah, the electric field strength at the antenna should be even stronger than at the grenade coil.
That is a very good result if you are using 24V as the power supply.

What grounding layout do you use ?

In that Stalker's video he seems to be using this one:


   Verpies:  Yes, I use 24v, from batteries, or from a 24v PS.  My ground line was 37.5 meter long, and goes into my water well in my back yard. But, now there is a new construction there, my daughter's house, and so my ground line is much shorter now, due to that.
   Geo had obtained pretty good results with a short 5 or 6 meter ground line, so perhaps or hopefully, it's not that critical.
   However, the recommended ground line is the thick welding cable, tuned by coiling it on the ground, and connecting it to the long solid copper grounding rods, such as are used for the house AC ground. And it should also match the grenade coil in size, and it is multi stranded, and expensive. More than I want to spend on it.

   NickZ
   

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   Itsu:
   Ok, so you are now using a new ferrite rod, which is meant to be used in radios.
   Has this new rod, improved the signal compared to the older ferrite rod, or not.
   How long are your arcs, and streamers now?

   NickZ

Nick,

i always have used this present ferrite rod, with new i mean it was new some years ago when i bought a few.

Right now its out of the circuit as i want to test without it first, but this need a re-tune of the circuit and causes the former reported (DECT) problems

Itsu
   
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