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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 52060 times)

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   Vasik:
   Thanks for the back up.  I guess now you know why I left the OU forum...

I think is not very good copy-paste information form one forum to another, change it and do not say where it comes from. It creates lot's of confusion. Hopefully not on purpose.
This was one of the reasons why decided made normal translation etc.

Vasik


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Looks like there are some higher frequency components as well.

PW,

Isn't it obvious that these peaks are BEMF from yoke ? Or do you mean something else ?

Vasik


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   PW:  I still don't know why one would want to change the AC output of the generator, by installing the full bridge and filter caps. As the feed back circuit is all going into a AC type of PS. I've heard that it's suppose to raise the voltage. But, if it's actually needed, I don't know. As I have not tried to feed back the output to the input, without the full bridge.
   On another note, those peaks on Itsu's rig, the yellow ones, may be what is needed, yet it's good to know what causes them to look like that, also.  But, I don't get why he highlighted the other red and blue signals, when I don't see any, except the green one, originally. Am I missing something?
    NickZ

NickZ,

I wasn't so much interested in the voltage waveforms (yellow trace) as I was the harmonics seen in the current waveforms  Itsu marked the first few harmonics on that waveform and we see a few more.

I am interested in whether or not the observed harmonics are indeed due to excitation of multiple wavelengths as per the unique windings of the grenade, or harmonics created due to the non-linear loads presented by the bridge rectifier, DC filter cap, and non-linear lamp filament.

PW
   
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PW,

Isn't it obvious that these peaks are BEMF from yoke ? Or do you mean something else ?

Vasik

Vasik,

I was referring to the harmonics observed in the grenade current waveform.

As in my reply to NickZ above, I am interested in whether or not the observed harmonics are indeed due to excitation of multiple wavelengths as per the unique windings of the grenade, or harmonics created due to the non-linear loads presented by the bridge rectifier, DC filter cap, and non-linear lamp filament.

PW


   
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I think is not very good copy-paste information form one forum to another, change it and do not say where it comes from. It creates lot's of confusion. Hopefully not on purpose.
This was one of the reasons why decided made normal translation etc.

Vasik



   Yes, and in the same way, it's not good to copy and paste, from different peoples devices. I think that it's better to focus on just one device.
Fortunately Stalker is very meticulous with his explanation of the purpose and function of each one of those components. And most of it I can follow fairly well. I do miss some of the details though. It's good to do as Itsu is doing, and follow closely the replication, otherwise we'll get confused with the different results, from different people and different circuits.
   Thanks again for your translations.

   NickZ
   

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Vasik,

I was referring to the harmonics observed in the grenade current waveform.

As in my reply to NickZ above, I am interested in whether or not the observed harmonics are indeed due to excitation of multiple wavelengths as per the unique windings of the grenade, or harmonics created due to the non-linear loads presented by the bridge rectifier, DC filter cap, and non-linear lamp filament.

PW

Perhaps Itsu can take a look on the grenade current with specter analyzer.
I think there will be three main low frequencies (push pull period, push pull pulses and push pull "pauses")
and some higher frequencies (with maximums around 1.2 and 5.3 MHz)

This picture was taken without grenade capacitor, I was wondering is it really possible to excite gradient coil HF oscillations with LF push pull.

Vasik

PS Sorry for bad image quality


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Perhaps Itsu can take a look on the grenade current with specter analyzer.
I think there will be three main low frequencies (push pull period, push pull pulses and push pull "pauses")
and some higher frequencies (with maximums around 1.2 and 5.3 MHz)

This picture was taken without grenade capacitor, I was wondering is it really possible to excite gradient coil HF oscillations with LF push pull.

Vasik

PS Sorry for bad image quality

Vasik,

At resonance, in a high Q LC tank, the capacitor current would be expected to be a rather clean sinusoid (closer to what is seen in the inductor current waveform).

It is possible that the observed harmonics in the grenade current are PP harmonics induced via the 28T of the yoke, but I wanted to rule out load non-linearities first.

Ideally, I suppose, there would be some indication that observed harmonics are due to the unique windings of the grenade.

A lot of effort has gone toward winding 1, 1/2 and 1/4 wavelength windings on the grenade and picking a specific length of wire for "wave resonance".  It would be interesting to clarify whether the observed grenade current harmonics are due to excitation of multiple harmonics related to the grenade windings or just harmonics moreso related to non-linear loading at the output.

It may also be necessary to repeat grenade current measurements with the 28T disconnected as well.

PW
   
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Vasik,

I was referring to the harmonics observed in the grenade current waveform.

As in my reply to NickZ above, I am interested in whether or not the observed harmonics are indeed due to excitation of multiple wavelengths as per the unique windings of the grenade, or harmonics created due to the non-linear loads presented by the bridge rectifier, DC filter cap, and non-linear lamp filament.

PW


   PW:  What do you mean by "non-linear loads".
   I also think that any "observed harmonics are due to the excitation of multiple wavelenghts". As this is a very complicated device. But, does that mean that they are the correct signals? Or,  just what are supposed to be the correct signals? It would be good to see how Stalker's signals compare to what Itsu is observing. I'm more concerned with his voltage spikes, and how unclean they look at over 800v, not the harmonics seen. As his current signal, looks pretty nice to me. Yet, there is a lot of amps sloshing around in there.
Wait till he starts using the Kacher... the real fun part, begins...

   NickZ
   
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   PW:  What do you mean by "non-linear loads".
 
...
   NickZ

NickZ,

As I previously stated, the bridge rectifier and the DC filter cap, the lamp filament, and any inputs to the DC to DC converters (although I don't believe Itsu has the latter connected).

All of the loads listed can generate harmonics due to their non-linear response to an applied voltage, particularly with respect to the bridge rectifier.

PW
   

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Itsu,

Looks like there are some higher frequency components as well.  Please approach these tests cautiously, without the bridge and DC filter cap, different resistive loading may be required to keep the voltage down to similar/measureable levels without harming your equipment.  I am mainly interested in the current waveform/spectrum.  Just watch out for excessive voltage.

Glad to hear your hand is returning to normal...

PW

PW,

The 25W bulb ran on 166V dc @ 91mA, so resistance was 1824 Ohm
I have 4x 470 Ohm resistors in series measuring 1860 Ohm as new load.


Below screenshot 1 is FFT for bulb / rectifier / capacitance.
Below screenshot 2 is FFT for 1860 Ohm resistive load only

I overlaid both currents see screenshot 3, white is original current (bulb / rectifier / capacitance),  green new 1860 Ohm load.

So we see a first peak at 24.4KHz , then even and odd harmonics all the way up (50KHz/div.)

 
Itsu
   

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   Vasik:
   Thanks for the back up.  I guess now you know why I left the OU forum...

   PW:  I still don't know why one would want to change the AC output of the generator, by installing the full bridge and filter caps. As the feed back circuit is all going into a AC type of PS. I've heard that it's suppose to raise the voltage. But, if it's actually needed, I don't know. As I have not tried to feed back the output to the input, without the full bridge. I still can't make heads or tails of any of this.
   On another note, those peaks on Itsu's rig, the yellow ones, may be what is needed, yet it's good to know what causes them to look like that, as mine are not so spikey. He is getting similar voltages, as I get, now.  But, I don't see why he highlighted the other red and blue current type signals, when I don't see any, except the green one, originally. Or, what am I missing?

    Itsu:  Is the new Kacher that you are working on producing sharp DC pulses, instead of the AC pulses? 
Is that the same or a similar circuit to the kacher you built previously, a few years back, or not?


    NickZ

Hi Nick,


not working on the new Kacher yet due to some problems here, but i don't think / expect it will produce DC pulses.

Yes, its one of those pulsed Kachers i worked on a few years back.

Itsu
   
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PW,

The 25W bulb ran on 166V dc @ 91mA, so resistance was 1824 Ohm
I have 4x 470 Ohm resistors in series measuring 1860 Ohm as new load.


Below screenshot 1 is FFT for bulb / rectifier / capacitance.
Below screenshot 2 is FFT for 1860 Ohm resistive load only

I overlaid both currents see screenshot 3, white is original current (bulb / rectifier / capacitance),  green new 1860 Ohm load.

So we see a first peak at 24.4KHz , then even and odd harmonics all the way up (50KHz/div.)

 
Itsu

Thanks Itsu.

Other than the increased amplitude of a few higher harmonics with the bridge installed (likely from diode switching), they are remarkably similar.

Would you consider repeating the test with the 28T temporarily disconnected?

PW

 
   
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Thanks Itsu.

Other than the increased amplitude of a few higher harmonics with the bridge installed (likely from diode switching), they are remarkably similar.

Would you consider repeating the test with the 28T temporarily disconnected?

PW

Itsu,

If you decide to try this test, you might also, as Vasik suggested, try reconnecting the 28T with the connections temporarily reversed just to see what it does.

How close do you believe you are to firing up the TC?

PW
   

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First i went back to the original load (rectifier / capacitor / 25W bulb), then reversed the 28T connections.

Screenshot 1 is the current in green overlaid by the original non reversed 28T plus full bulb load in  white.

I had to re-tune the push pulls frequency to max resonance now 25.6KHz, and pp current increased to 10A while input seems the same.

Screenshot 2 shows the FFT signal in this new reversed 28t situation.

Will now try without 28t........

Itsu
   

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I disconnected the 28t secondary L2.

Still using original load (rectifier / capacitor / bulb).

Had again to re-tune the push pull for max output, now increase to 26.1KHz.
Output voltage / current across the bulb is 100V @ 70mA
Total input also dropped to 24V @ 1.3A.

Screenshot 1 shows the Grenade L5 current in green (5.5A pp)
Screenshot 2 shows the FFT signal of this current which is much cleaner as the signal itself.

Concerning the new kacher, i expect it to be finished in a few days
Itsu
   

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A word of warning to those who build and experiment with these systems.
Every alive researcher confirms: device is dangerous, it kills or affect negatively life around.
People, home animals, plants.
And there are dead also, who died suddenly e.g. from heart attack.
Be very careful when experimenting. Listen for your feelings.
Do not run device for extended period of time.
Do not use high power when not needed.
Do not stay close to operational device.
Try not become the next dead FE researcher :)

Vasik

PS build and use this simple magnetic field probe


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Now you tell us!


anyway, thanks for the warning, better safe then sorry.
Nice probe, i have one and will keep it near the device.



Concerning my above measurements, with 28t L2 coil i mean in my case 18 turns as that was all that fitted as single layer on the yoke half.

It shows that the distortion / harmonics on the Grenade L5 current seems to come from this L2 secondary. 
It also shows that the reversal of this L2 had some impact on the output signal (increased) and frequency (increased), but not on this distortion / harmonics.

But without the L2 coil, the output (and input) drops significantly to almost half that it was, but the signal gets much cleaner.

So some problems are:

how to maintain 200/300V on output without L2
would increasing the numer of turns (layers) on L2 increase the grenade L5 current signal quality (Q).
Is a better Grenade L5 current signal wanted / needed.


Thanks,   Itsu
   

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Now you tell us!
anyway, thanks for the warning, better safe then sorry.
Nice probe, i have one and will keep it near the device.
Concerning my above measurements, with 28t L2 coil i mean in my case 18 turns as that was all that fitted as single layer on the yoke half.
It shows that the distortion / harmonics on the Grenade L5 current seems to come from this L2 secondary. 
It also shows that the reversal of this L2 had some impact on the output signal (increased) and frequency (increased), but not on this distortion / harmonics.
But without the L2 coil, the output (and input) drops significantly to almost half that it was, but the signal gets much cleaner.
So some problems are:
how to maintain 200/300V on output without L2
would increasing the numer of turns (layers) on L2 increase the grenade L5 current signal quality (Q).
Is a better Grenade L5 current signal wanted / needed.
Thanks,   Itsu

Itsu,

May be I didn't give it a good thought when I say we need gave up on using L2.
I also see quite weak output on gradient coil without L2. It is probably good idea to stick with original schematic and use L2 until we have better understanding of device operation. Such winding seems to present in many other devices.
I tried tuning inductor to 46.8Khz (3x) and gradient coil to 15.6Khz (my push pull frequency).
It produce even "worse" traces than you have. I don't think we need to worry how clean signals are right now.

Regards,
Vasik

PS image: top - gradient coil current, bottom - inductor current, L2 is connected
I can make GC current more like sine if I increase duty cycle, but power supply current goes over 3 Amp


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Vasik,

Ok,  so leaving L2 would be the simplest to do then, i will look into this reversal once more.


Looks like your current transformer (yellow signal) is saturating, perhaps lower the burden resistor some more.
I have a 6 Ohm 2W resistor there and both core and resistor getting hot quick, but it shows similar signal as the AC current probe.

Itsu
   

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Looks like your current transformer (yellow signal) is saturating, perhaps lower the burden resistor some more.
I have a 6 Ohm 2W resistor there and both core and resistor getting hot quick, but it shows similar signal as the AC current probe.

Itsu,

I think you right, will check later.
I have 10 ohm 2W resistors and they are just a little warm.

Vasik


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Now you tell us!

Talk about burying the lead...

Quote

Concerning my above measurements, with 28t L2 coil i mean in my case 18 turns as that was all that fitted as single layer on the yoke half.

It shows that the distortion / harmonics on the Grenade L5 current seems to come from this L2 secondary. 
It also shows that the reversal of this L2 had some impact on the output signal (increased) and frequency (increased), but not on this distortion / harmonics.

It appears that when reversed, the even harmonics were canceled a significant amount, while odd harmonics were mostly unaffected.

Quote
But without the L2 coil, the output (and input) drops significantly to almost half that it was, but the signal gets much cleaner.

So some problems are:

how to maintain 200/300V on output without L2
would increasing the number of turns (layers) on L2 increase the grenade L5 current signal quality (Q).
Is a better Grenade L5 current signal wanted / needed.


Thanks,   Itsu

We see some designs with and without L2.  So what is L2 there for?

Some possibilities I have considered:

1.  Author stated that the yoke is operated close to saturation.  Perhaps a certain amount of load current thru L2 saturates the core (yoke) which tends to regulate the output.

2.  If phased (connected) correctly, load current through L2 could act as positive feedback driving the inductor via L3 (yoke secondary connected to inductor)

3.  Again, if phased correctly, perhaps L2 is intended to cancel certain harmonics/frequencies in the output circuit to reduce the effects of loading at those frequencies.

Just food for thought...

PW
   
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...

I tried tuning inductor to 46.8Khz (3x) and gradient coil to 15.6Khz (my push pull frequency).
It produce even "worse" traces than you have. I don't think we need to worry how clean signals are right now.

Regards,
Vasik

PS image: top - gradient coil current, bottom - inductor current, L2 is connected
I can make GC current more like sine if I increase duty cycle, but power supply current goes over 3 Amp

Vasik,

What do your waveforms look like if you tune the inductor to an even harmonic (ie, 4X)?

PW
   

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Vasik,

What do your waveforms look like if you tune the inductor to an even harmonic (ie, 4X)?

PW

PW,

As you might know even harmonics "don't make friends with each other", I mean they cancel each other.
I tried tuning to 4x by accident, it does not work well.

Vasik :)


PS words about "core close to saturation" originates from Alexeev, so not confirmed for now for this setup.


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PW,

As you might know even harmonics "don't make friends with each other", I mean they cancel each other.
I tried tuning to 4x by accident, it does not work well.

Vasik :)

Yes, I know, but perhaps the resultant modulation is significant.  Just thinking out loud...

Quote
PS words about "core close to saturation" originates from Alexeev, so not confirmed for now for this setup.

Sorry for that, I thought that statement was with regard to this set-up.  Even so, saturation via load current thru L2 is a possibility...

I believe you stated you are not using L2.  Do you have any info regarding why some set-ups use L2 while others do not?  Is there any discussion you are aware of regarding why L2 is there or its function?

Thanks,
PW

ADDED:  regarding the odd/even harmonic tuning:

Are the 1/2 and 1/4 wavelength windings on the grenade there to reinforce or cancel the even harmonics they are associated with?
PW
   

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Yes, I know, but perhaps the resultant modulation is significant.  Just thinking out loud...

Sorry for that, I thought that statement was with regard to this set-up.  Even so, saturation via load current thru L2 is a possibility...

I believe you stated you are not using L2.  Do you have any info regarding why some set-ups use L2 while others do not?  Is there any discussion you are aware of regarding why L2 is there or its function?

Thanks,
PW

PW,

It could be that saturation needed, I don't know for sure. So far it seems not necessary.
It will require rather long discussion to show how these systems work (or how I think they work).
It is better not start it here.
You looked into Dally's last setup ? There is push pull driving load and a coil connected in series and subjected to Tesla coils fields. Isn't it same as we have here (not taking into account fancy coils construction) ?

Vasik

PS may be we can have some separate topic for theoretical discussions if it is interesting
« Last Edit: 2021-07-14, 14:59:19 by Vasik041 »


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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   
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