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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 55579 times)
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Connected everything up again, and measured the Grenade (L2  L5) current while  activating / deactivating the Kacher.

No change (else then some slight reduction of the current amplitude) was seen, so no phase change.


Itsu

Itsu,

Just to be clear, I meant to use two current probes (one on L2, and one on L3, ext trigger on PWM) and look for any phase shift when the TC is energized.  Repeat with the current probes at L4 and L5. 

PW

   

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notice the 1/3 Notch filter in the base bias section of the katcher circuit of Alexeys circuit
Indeed there is a series LC circuit at the base of the BJT which will have the minimum impedance at its resonance. This will short the signal of this frequency to ground, effectively "notching" it.


« Last Edit: 2021-07-01, 10:23:13 by AlienGrey »
   

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Hi Verpies.

I'm not sure whether the soon to be attached video has any relevance to the current discussion on frequency doubling?
Somewhat.
This is a periodically saturating ferrite that distorts the voltage induced in a coil that is wound on it.  That induced voltage is proportional to the rate of change of flux in the core. When the core saturates the flux stops changing* and the induced voltage flattens out (no flux change = no induced voltage).

Because the ferrite saturates twice per cycle (once in the NS direction and then in the SN direction) the induced voltage flattens out twice per cycle, too.  Note that this mechanism does not generate sine waves - it generates a distortion twice per cycle.  That distorted waveform can be filtered in subsequent filters.

* Actually it still changes but ~1000x less because only the M field stops increasing while H continues to.
   

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After Itsu's experiments, does anyone here have any doubts that the Yoke's material is subjected to MHz E-field and H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly) ?
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
Indeed there is a series LC circuit at the base of the BJT which will have the minimum impedance at its resonance. This will short the signal of this frequency to ground, effectively "notching" it.

Verpies, Hi,  :) I’m a not sure about how to implement this idea, so if for instance i use a 1.98 mhz katcher tuned coil then 1/3 would be 660 khz ?
or would i have to use the 3rd harmonic freq ?

regards Sil
   

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...a 1.98 mhz katcher tuned coil then 1/3 would be 660 khz ?
or would i have to use the 3rd harmonic freq ?
I would expect the primary frequency (driven) to be lower and then the undesirable harmonic, which is to be "notched out", to be 3x higher.  I think the "1/3" annotation on the schematic refers to 1/3 of the driven wavelength.

Generally, if you can remove all the odd harmonics, then you can convert a square wave into a sine wave.
The first odd harmonic is the 3rd harmonic and it contributes the most to the difference between a sine wave and square wave, so removing it has the greatest effect on making a square wave look like a sine wave.
   

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Hi Verpies; many thanks for that information.

Others might find that of use.

Regards Sil
   

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Itsu,

Just to be clear, I meant to use two current probes (one on L2, and one on L3, ext trigger on PWM) and look for any phase shift when the TC is energized.  Repeat with the current probes at L4 and L5. 

PW

Ok,  i got you.

Having only 1 current probe (AC only) presently, so i used an earlier made current transformer and made sure the both give identical signals (phase like) which they did.

Then measured the requested currents and they show no phase shift when activating / deactivating the kacher (between 12 and 50V on the collector).


Itsu
   
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Ok,  i got you.

Having only 1 current probe (AC only) presently, so i used an earlier made current transformer and made sure the both give identical signals (phase like) which they did.

Then measured the requested currents and they show no phase shift when activating / deactivating the kacher (between 12 and 50V on the collector).


Itsu

Itsu,

With it all operating, does connecting/disconnecting the load cause any phase shift?

PW
   
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After Itsu's experiments, does anyone here have any doubts that the Yoke's material is subjected to MHz E-field and H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly) ?

Verpies,

We are operating under the assumption that the devices perform as advertised, that is, they are able to power themselves as well as a significant load.  With that as a given, we need to find a possible gain mechanism or source of energy that the device taps into.

I do not doubt that just about anywhere one probes throughout this circuit that a neon will light.  In the video regarding the push-pull and the yoke assembly, he is able to light a neon (one end grounded to fingers) anywhere he probed around the yoke core and the insulation of the windings, and that was without the TC operating.

Note that in that yoke related video, he shows the push-pull waveform on the primary, which has a significant amount of 1MHz to 2MHz pulses/ringing in between the PWM pulse edges.  This HF ringing we would normally snub, but these pulses are apparently high enough in frequency, and voltage, to cap couple to just about everywhere in the yoke circuit (even on the surface of the wire insulation).

Again, that said, I do not doubt that the TC also cap couples to the entire circuit as well.  That Itsu was able to light a neon (having to break insulation to do so) is apparently significant to you in that you feel this is affecting/influencing the core of the yoke in some manner.  Perhaps driving it into saturation or combining with the HF ringing of the PWM driver pulse.

Are you proposing this HF influence on the yoke is somehow a gain mechanism or source of energy that allows the device to perform as advertised? 

If so, can you offer more insight with regard to that concept?

PW

 
   
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After Itsu's experiments, does anyone here have any doubts that the Yoke's material is subjected to MHz E-field and H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly) ?

OK, so what are you considering here, could it be the permeability increase with frequency?  Not really knowing what material the yolk ferrite is from the Russian TVs, the Magnetics type "F" material is seen below to increase 133% at ~700-800kHz.  I remember doing some tests for Smudge in the past that attempted using this perm increase for a possible gain mechanism, but wasn't successful IIRC.

Regards,
Pm
   

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Itsu,

With it all operating, does connecting/disconnecting the load cause any phase shift?

PW

PW,

Also negative, only some current amplitude change,  no phase.

Itsu
   

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Playing with 2 parallel variable capacitors (total 35 - 350pF) connected parallel to the Primary kacher coil, see picture.

Collector signal results are shown in the screenshot.

yellow is with minimum capacitance (35pF), light blue with maximum capacitance (350pF).

So with minimum capacitance we have a more spiky and pulsed signal while with maximum capacitance we have it more stretched out pulling more current too.

Something telling me the minimum capacitance is the better one.

Itsu
 
   
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I think I already made a translation for this video.
There are two unrelated things: tuning output frequency 2x to push pull and amplitude increase with kacher pulses

Vasik

Vasik,

I could not find your translation of this video in your documentation thread.

Perhaps I have overlooked it.  Could you please direct me to the translation?

PW
   

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We are operating under the assumption that the devices perform as advertised,
Yes while allowing for the possibility of the alternative.

With that as a given, we need to find a possible gain mechanism or source of energy that the device taps into.
Yes, in order to optimize the construction of this device for this mechanism.

This mechanism can be:
  • material (baryonic matter)
  • immaterial (leptons, photons)
  • other...*

In case of the 1st possibility, the matter where the mechanism takes place is called the "gain medium", just like a ruby crystal in a laser is its "gain medium".

I do not doubt that just about anywhere one probes throughout this circuit that a neon will light.
I hope you are not conflating:
lighting a neon bulb between the circuit and earth/ground or operator's hand
 vs.
lighting a neon bulb between two circuit elements.

I think that lighting a neon bulb between L2 and L3 qualifies as the latter and constitutes proof that the yoke is routinely subjected to HF E-field in this device.

Also, note that in my question I asked if you have any doubts that the yoke is subjected to both the HF E-field AND H-fields. I still do not know whether you have any.

This HF ringing we would normally snub, but these pulses are apparently high enough in frequency, and voltage, to cap couple to just about everywhere in the yoke circuit (even on the surface of the wire insulation).
So you do have doubts that the energy which creates the difference in electric potential between L2 and L3 originates at the Kacher.
This begs for an experiment which checks whether the neon bulb between the L2 and L3 lights up with the Kacher disabled and PP enabled.

Again, that said, I do not doubt that the TC also cap couples to the entire circuit as well.
Perhaps, but cap coupling wrt to ground is not the same as creating an electric potential difference between two elements of the circuit.
Most importantly, not all parts of this circuit have both the HF differential electric potential and H-field delivered to them so deliberately.

That Itsu was able to light a neon (having to break insulation to do so) is apparently significant to you in that you feel this is affecting/influencing the core of the yoke in some manner. 
Yes, my thesis is that the material of the yoke is the gain medium and it is a central component of the entire device - everything else being auxiliary.

Perhaps driving it into saturation or combining with the HF ringing of the PWM driver pulse.
These are well known effects that have not been observed to provide energy gain in conventional circuits.

Are you proposing this HF influence on the yoke is somehow a gain mechanism or source of energy that allows the device to perform as advertised? 
Yes, the specific geometric orientation of the HF E-field and HF H-field and the LF H-field.

If so, can you offer more insight with regard to that concept?
I could but only privately. Doing so publicly in detail would derail this thread.
I already gave you a hint in my previous posts that subjecting certain ferrites to an electric field decreases their magnetic permeability. In other words some ferrites are susceptible not only to magnetic influence but to electric influence as well.

I know that the grenade coil is big and flashy and exotic looking and most people think that some aetheric mumbo-jumbo is happening in it but in my book that is just an auxiliary device.

For now, all I want is for builders is to pay more attention to the electric and magnetic fields that the yoke is subjected to ...and to the material of the yoke itself.
   

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   Guys:
   It's like Vasik said, that Itsu needs to fully tune his rig, before any of this speculation about gain mechanisms will make any sense. As so far, there is no "gain mechanism". And only mAs going through the yoke core. So, until there is something to write home about, we need to calm down, and get the tuning right.
  Itsu has shown no phase change, nor any sign of frequency doubling. Same as I have observed, up to now. And both inductor and grenade coils running their best at the SAME frequency. Those are the facts up to now. No gain mechanism in site...as yet. And just because the yoke has some small amount of HV and HF running all though it, as well as on every thing else on the device, doesn't mean that the device can self run, by any means.
Until there is a proper sync, it's no cigar. So, back to the drawing board... or rather, back to tuning the board.
 

   NickZ
   

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OK, so what are you considering here, could it be the permeability increase with frequency?
Even if it is, the device operates at constant frequency.

Not really knowing what material the yolk ferrite is from the Russian TVs,
See PM.

P.S.
You have not answered my question if you have any doubts whether the yoke's ferrite is subjected to differential HF E-field and HF H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly).
   

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No gain mechanism in sight ...as yet.
Did you consider that you are not using a gain medium which capable of such mechanism ?

P.S.
You have not answered my question if you have any doubts whether the yoke's ferrite is subjected to differential HF E-field and HF H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly).
   

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  And you know which is the right medium? I'll know it when I see it. As you don't like to guess, we'll have to wait and see.
Geofusion is showing that a 3 inch toroid will work as well as the yoke. Other specs are unknown, such as Stalkers yokes, and such info.
 
   You want to do tests on a device that does not work yet? Seams a bit premature...
  I am backing Vasik on this. And suggest the same, fine tuning.

    Verpies:
   EDIT:  The fact that the yoke is also being pulsed by the Kacher circuit and shows some HV and HF on it, by itself, means nothing special.
If it is not strong enough, nor at the proper matching frequency, it won't cause the effect generation needed. As well as needing a PROPER tuned earth ground line. And, as you have mentioned, the small amount of HV amplitude/current, just won't cut it. Therefore my and Vasik's suggestion on further tuning.
   I am showing the partial lighting of a 100w bulb by a simple Kacher. Can that be done on mAs? Like on Itsu's test case, in the same way? I doubt it.
Therefore my question, why is Itsu's readings so low? Seams like something is not right, nor well tuned, or something...
   I'm trying to get to the bottom of this, not just to argue about what I'm not too sure of, as yet. The idea is to crack this nut.
   
   NickZ
   

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And you know which is the right medium?
Yes, the same one that Stalker was using and the same one that was shown to perform well in this video and this video.

You want to do tests on a device that does not work yet?
Yes, how else can we move forward ?  Swapping random components and turning trimpots until a bulb lights up?  Haven't you been doing that for over a decade ?

There is nothing wrong with testing components which have been replicated exactly to spec and judging what operating conditions they create for components which have not been replicated exactly. The yoke's ferrite is just such a component.

It is obvious from the schematic that all of the output power of this device appears across that red capacitor before it gets filtered and rectified.
When we are operating under the assumption that the devices perform as advertised then that output energy is greater than the energy delivered by the Kacher + PP.
It is evident from the schematic that the circuit which is responsible for the energy appearing across that cap is composed of L2 and L5.
Ergo, L2 or L5 must be responsible for this energy gain.

You keep fixating on L5 - I say consider the L2 and the yoke, too (it has much more going for it than L5).

Seam a bit premature...
It is not premature to point out that tuning the carburetor is pointless when the engine is missing.

By all means go through the tuning motions. Wake me up when you're done.
   
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Even if it is, the device operates at constant frequency.
See PM.

P.S.
You have not answered my question if you have any doubts whether the yoke's ferrite is subjected to differential HF E-field and HF H-fields powered by the Kacher (indirectly or directly).

If I understand the circuit operation correctly,  the yolk would be subjected to differential E and H-fields by the Kacher. If true, these field and or/frequency differentials could possibly change the permeability of the yolk and therefore provide a gain means.  Pure speculation on my part.

Something somewhere must provide a gain means or else the circuit will be conservative.  IOW, it will not self-power itself.

Regards,
Pm
   

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If I understand the circuit operation correctly,  the yolk would be subjected to differential E and H-fields by the Kacher.
And it is enough to keep that in mind.

If true, these field and or/frequency differentials could possibly change the permeability of the yolk and therefore provide a gain means.
At this point I do not want to push a specific reaction of the ferrite to these E-fields and H-fields that are acting upon it.
I would just like you to keep in mind the possibility of such reaction.

Something somewhere must provide a gain means or else the circuit will be conservative.  IOW, it will not self-power itself.
According to the schematic it must be L2, L5 or that red cap.  Everything else is auxiliary.

P.S.
Because you have the knowledge of an EE, I would like to direct your attention to the TWO frequency components of the current circulating through L2, L5 and that red cap. These two frequency components have different functions:
The low frequency apparently carries the bulk of the output energy, while the high frequency does something else,...

...but whatever the HF does is not needed at the bridge rectifier and the red cap lets it through to L2&L5 (cap has low reactance to HF) and the L6 choke additionally filters it out from the FWBR (probably CM LPF).

   

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Yes, the same one that Stalker was using and the same one that was shown to perform well in this video and this video.
Yes, how else can we move forward ?  Swapping random components and turning trimpots until a bulb lights up?  Haven't you been doing that for over a decade ?

There is nothing wrong with testing components which have been replicated exactly to spec and judging what operating conditions they create for components which have not been replicated exactly. The yoke's ferrite is just such a component.

It is obvious from the schematic that all of the output power of this device appears across that red capacitor before it gets filtered and rectified.
When we are operating under the assumption that the devices perform as advertised then that output energy is greater than the energy delivered by the Kacher + PP.
It is evident from the schematic that the circuit which is responsible for the energy appearing across that cap is composed of L2, L5.
Ergo, L2 or L5 must be responsible for this energy gain.

You keep fixating on L5 - I say consider the L2 and the yoke, too (it has much more going for it than L5).
It is not premature to point out that tuning the carburetor is pointless when the engine is missing.

By all means go through the tuning motions. Wake me up when you're done.


   Are you awake???   I may never "be done". So...
   OK, that "red capacitor" is what gives the heart beat to the yoke/grenade device, along with the tuning caps at the grenade output, the 0.15uf, or so. And they really need to be the good German 2000v WIMA type, not just any type. I feel that is most important. Two of them in parallel, is even better. If you hear the spark given off when Ruslan shorts that red wima cap(s), bang!!!  That tells me a lot about what's going on. Yes, it's like a high power capacitor going off, alright. No tiny winy spark. Without having that effect, that bang, the rest is, well you know... like no where.
So, the idea is to be able to make that big "bang". Not so easy to do. That is the "capacitor effect" from the coils and tuning caps, that they are talking about. And where we have to look for that "gain mechanism".  Once we have that "effect", of course, you can look for it before, but, it's not there.

   Nickz
   

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OK, that "red capacitor" is what give the heart beat to the device,
That capacitor is a short circuit to the HF current but not so much to the LF.

Because of this, the LF (kHz) energy appears across that capacitor and is siphoned off by the L6 to the Bridge Rectifier. The rectified current then powers the load and closes the loop.

In a way, that capacitor acts as a separator that allows the HF to circulate through L2 & L5 and prohibits the HF from entering the FWBR via the L6 choke.  In other words, whatever current does not go through that cap, goes to the L6 choke and to the FWBR.

Warning: Making that capacitor too large diminishes its HF/LF separation ability.
   

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   Now that you're awake...
   The idea is that between the red wima tuning caps, and all the different coils, that the mentioned "capacitor effect" is achieved.
Without which the rest is null and void. How to obtain those results, is what I'm after.
   I start by following the schematic and it's recommended values. And look for errors, as well. As usually there are errors, unfortunately.
And listen for the big bang, on Radio Moscow, while tuning. If you can get that kind of high spark intensity when shorting the "red cap",  like Ruslan has shown sounding like a firecracker, I think that you'd have a good start on it. That's the main trick, I believe. The capacitor effect. Sorry to bore.
You can go back to sleep if you like,  I'm done.

   NickZ
« Last Edit: 2021-07-02, 04:06:50 by NickZ »
   
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