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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 55621 times)

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Well your questions imply that we are supposed to know what happens in all situations. I have not seen that doubling to be the case in my device. And Vasik has answered you, with a no, as well.
Not that you are supposed to know all, but you are supposed to know more - especially empirical data since you have been at it for a long time and you have many more experimental hours logged in than I. 
If neither you nor Vasik has seen or noticed that doubling then I will take it as a quod ad populum.

You want to know why the doubling happens, we would have to guess.
I don't want you to guess.  I want you (plural) to explain it away using the knowledge of conventional phenomena and if that fails then classify it as an unconventional phenomenon that needs attention.

Yet, my point is that what he is showing is of any real consequence, at the output? Or not?
The frequncy doubling could be of tremendous importance if it is an indicator of some energy gain mechanism.
...and a useful tuning indicator, too.

But, I would say that he is tuning for that response, using the tuning caps, and such.
You keep repeating that but fail to consider why that highly purposeful "tuning" is not functional when the Kacher is inactive.
   

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verpies,

I watched video one more time. Now I understand what you mean "frequency doubling".
I put scope images with kacher off (top) and on(bottom) on same image.
It seems that you right.
My guess is that without kacher and with heavy load connected we are seeing frequency coming from push pull which is 1/2 of frequency output coil tuned on.
Kacher adding lot of current and so oscillations in output coil grow significantly higher than push pull signal and so we see output coil frequency.
Do you have better idea ?

Vasik

PS Probably it was bad idea to bring Alexeev's videos in discussions. It is more confusing than helping. Better stay with Stalker's info.

PPS I still think that amplitude growth and frequency doubling are separate things. There is Ruslan's vide where amplitude just grows. So output frequency determined by coil inductance and capacitor, not affected by kacher.


---------------------------
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Itsu,

Nice simulation :)
Pulsing collector signal - most probably primary resonating with 22pf.
In reality secondary capacitance is distributed, so oscillations are more complex.
I tried adding capacitor in parallel to primary coil, 10-30nf give some resonance, but I can't get higher voltage on the secondary. It is probably because this simulation don't take into account wave processes.

BTW How your kacher experiments are going ?

Regards,
Vasik


Hi Vasik, 


yes, it stays a simulation with would have its own limitations.


The kacher is removed right now to show PW that the ringing on the push pull signal is not coming from it.
But i will reinstall it and start to experiment with a variable capacitor parallel to the primary.


Itsu
   

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verpies,


In that video where the kacher base and emitter are shorted (good catch to see the frequency changing), i also hear i fan stopping during that time.

I do not see a fan near by, so could it be a PS that is being shut down by this shorting of the base - emitter and thus also shutting down something else powered by this PS?


Itsu
   

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Kacher adding lot of current and so oscillations in output coil grow significantly higher than push pull signal and so we see output coil frequency.
Do you have better idea ?
Before I get any ideas, I would like to try to explain it away using conventional physics.

This begs for an experiment where the yoke's primary windings are disconnected/opened and only currents induced by the Kacher in the yoke's secondary windings are measured.
The magnitude of this induction would tell me how much current the Kacher is really capable of adding to these windings (yoke secondaries, grenade coil, inductor - someone please mark them with L1, L2, L3, etc...!).
   

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In that video where the Kacher base and emitter are shorted (good catch to see the frequency changing), i also hear i fan stopping during that time.
Yes, the fan sometimes slows down when the emitter and base are shorted (e.g. here it does not), but I am thinking that this noisy fan is in something connected to the output of the device (e.g. DC-DC conv.).

Shorting of the base and emitter does not load the +25V rail in that video - it disables the BJT and decreases the load on that rail.

   

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   If the device is connected to a load of over 300w to 500w, the Kacher's normal output will do nothing to add voltage or current to what the push pull can do by itself.  UNLESS, there is a proper sync, and OU thereby, if not you will see only the induction circuit output. Unlike at much lower current loads, where the Kacher is shown adding some additional voltage and current to the push pull circuit, at the output.  That's why I always say that the load needs to be at least over 300w. Or you'll get fooled by the additional brightness of the bulbs, when you turn the kacher on, also, and think that the Kacher is really doing its job, (interuption of the push pull signal), when it's not.
I hope that I've said that correctly, otherwise I may get a bad review.
Oh no...
 
   BTW:  I do have a video showing just what the Kacher can do by itself, in brightly lighting a couple of 25w bulbs, and even partially lighting a 100w bulb, through the grenade output circuit, by itself, without the push pull being on. That is why I say that the grenade output load needs to be high, or you'll be fooled by the supposed additional kacher input, at lower wattage of less than 300w loads, or so.

   NickZ
« Last Edit: 2021-06-29, 23:35:15 by NickZ »
   

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If the device is connected to a load of over 300w to 500w, the Kacher's normal output will do nothing to add voltage or current to what the push pull can do by itself.  UNLESS, there is a proper sync, and OU thereby, if not you will see only the induction circuit output.
OK, that is a valid empirical observation.  This means that the experiment with the disconnected yoke's primary, which I just described, should be tried with the red capacitor shorted or blue choke shorted, too.

I have a video showing just what the Kacher can do by itself, in brightly lighting a couple of 50w bulbs, and even partially lighting a 100w bulb, through the grenade output circuit, by itself, without the push pull being on.
In this experiment, I would like to determine quantitatively how much current can really be induced in the Yoke's secondaries by the Kacher alone
If it is a small current, then nobody will be tempted to explain the output frequency doubling and output amplitude rise by the mere EM induction from the Kacher (i.e. the current induced by the Kacher adding/overriding the current driven by the PP circuit), ...when the PP is driving the yoke's primary in subsequent experiments.
   

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  The Kacher input when it is driven through the grenade output coil and after rectification, filtering, and at bulbs, there is about 25w or so, at most. Which is being driven by my kacher through the yoke/grenade. This is even with the push pull primary coils connected. My Kacher runs on 24v, and about 2amps, or so, at full power. Yet, it can light some incandescent bulbs pretty nicely, just by itself, when running through the yoke/grenade output circuit, rectifier, and to the bulbs.
   I feel that the doubling is just a quirk of that particular device. While Itsu had found that both the inductor and the grenade output coils run best at the SAME frequency. And so, he is now running at its best so far, at about the same or very similar frequency, and matching Kacher frequency, as I am.
Just by chance,  right?

    Verpies:
   Below is a video that I made a few years ago, showing what the simple 24v kacher circuit can do to some bulbs. Sorry for the blurry image.
The previous Mazilli induction circuit is not connected up, just the Kacher signal being sent through the yoke and grenade coils, and to the bulbs.
   https://youtu.be/mpS7noQZ7DQ


   NickZ
   

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Kacher activated (6 turn primary) secondary top connected to ferrite transformer and antenna with 12V on collector.

The "red capacitor" shorted

Yoke's primaries disconnected / open and current (AC only probe) measured in 3 turn secondary going to the inductor see screenshot 1 and in 18 turn secondary going to the Grenade see screenshot 2.

Red is AC only current probe in 2mA/mV setting, yellow is probe nearby antenna end.


Itsu
   

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The "red capacitor" shorted
What about the situation when the cap is not shorted ?
...and a 3rd situation: when only the blue choke is shorted ?

Yoke's primaries disconnected / open
By yoke's primaries I meant only the windings which are connected to the PP MOSFETs.
The undue uncertainty, which I am experiencing, is what happens when the windings do not have their proper designations (L1, L2, L3, ...etc).
e.g.: the 25t winding on the yoke is not a primary winding.

Red is AC only current probe in 2mA/mV setting
So the grenade's max current is 16.8mA due to the Kacher alone.
...and the "inductor's" max current is 35.2mA due to the Kacher alone.

Not @ Itsu:
  • Can these induced currents significantly alter the current driven by the PP circuit when the Kacher is supplied with 100s of Volts ?
  • Can these induced currents override the PP's frequency ?
  • Is the Kacher's gating synchronized to the PP's frequency or to 2x the PP's frequency ? (rhetorical)
   

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   Verpies:
   Please check my last post, directed to you, about what the 24v simple Kacher can do by itself onto the yoke/grenade output coil circuits.
   
   NickZ
   
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   Verpies:
   Please check my last post, directed to you, about what the 24v simple Kacher can do by itself onto the yoke/grenade output coil circuits.
   
   NickZ

NickZ,

Do you know how much current you were drawing from your 24V Kacher supply?
(perhaps I missed it in your video)

PW
   

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  Verpies:  Sorry, but I'm not sure, now. As that was years ago. I would guess at about 25w at least. I know you don't like guesses, but that is what I can remember. It will be interesting to see what Itsu comes up with on the yoke current readings. In any case, for me it was enough to partially light a 100w bulb, and what looks like a fully lit 25w bulb. Just not at the same time.
   You know that current readings are not so easy to do, for me. And I'm still just looking for what it takes to keep the bulbs going, without any input. And the feed back PS is the stopper, for me at this time. It blinks but that's all. Could be the lack of proper wima caps to tune with. Or the right caps at the output, as well. As my grenade output cap, 0.1uf is cracked, and has been epoxyed, and I don't have any more of the 1000v to 2000v wima caps to tune with. And, as I mentioned, everything gets too hot. And I do night long test and heat runs. Or at least I did before, to see what gives. And at times everything ran fine, cool, and with no problems. But, the best resonance tuning always seam to bring on the over heating issue of some key components, like the fets, and caps. Besides the sag and overheating of the grenade coils former tube. So, lots of stuff to resolve, still.

   NickZ
   

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Please check my last post, directed to you, about what the 24v simple Kacher can do by itself onto the yoke/grenade output coil circuits.
Didn't I refer to that post in this post ?
Also, the question about the amount of current you were drawing from your 24V Kacher supply, was not from me.
   

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   PW:  Sorry I got distracted again, and thought you we Verpies.
   I'm trying to keep up with all this, but, I'm hoping that Itsu will fill in the current blanks.
    Thanks,

    NickZ
   

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What about the situation when the cap is not shorted ?
...and a 3rd situation: when only the blue choke is shorted ?
By yoke's primaries I meant only the windings which are connected to the PP MOSFETs.
The undue uncertainty, which I am experiencing, is what happens when the windings do not have their proper designations (L1, L2, L3, ...etc).
e.g.: the 25t winding on the yoke is not a primary winding.
So the grenade's max current is 16.8mA due to the Kacher alone.
...and the "inductor's" max current is 35.2mA due to the Kacher alone.

Not @ Itsu:
  • Can these induced currents significantly alter the current driven by the PP circuit when the Kacher is supplied with 100s of Volts ?
  • Can these induced currents override the PP's frequency ?
  • Is the Kacher's gating synchronized to the PP's frequency or to 2x the PP's frequency ? (rhetorical)


verpies,



Quote
What about the situation when the cap is not shorted ?
...and a 3rd situation: when only the blue choke is shorted ?

I will do these later today.


Quote
By yoke's primaries I meant only the windings which are connected to the PP MOSFETs.
The undue uncertainty, which I am experiencing, is what happens when the windings do not have their proper designations (L1, L2, L3, ...etc).
e.g.: the 25t winding on the yoke is not a primary winding.

Concerning the yokes primaries, i had this in mind (see drawing as reference):

Yoke primaries: L1a and L1b
yoke secondary 1: L2 (25 / 18 turns)
yoke secondary 2: L3 (3 turns)
Inductor: L4
Grenade: L5

So i had both L1a and L1b disconnected / open.


Quote
So the grenade's max current is 16.8mA due to the Kacher alone.
...and the "inductor's" max current is 35.2mA due to the Kacher alone.


As the current probe was in 2mA/mV setting, the inductor current would be 35.2 x 2 = 70.4mApp and the Grenade current 16.8 x 2 = 33.6mApp

Itsu
   

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As the current probe was in 2mA/mV setting, the inductor current would be 35.2 x 2 = 70.4mApp and the Grenade current 16.8 x 2 = 33.6mApp
I agree and this means that the max currents are 35.2mA and 16.8mA because for a symmetrical AC the peak-to-peak value is 2x the max value.
   

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Ok,   i got you.


New measurements:

Screenshot 1 is Grenade current with red cap not shorted
Screenshot 2 is Grenade current with only blue choke shorted

So very small difference.

I have to make a correction with the "red capacitor" shorted in the earlier post, it tuned out that me holding the short influenced (less current) the reading.
There is almost no difference in the with and without "red capacitor" shorted situation.


When approaching the antenna / grenade area it influences the current readings.

Itsu
   

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I had this in mind (see drawing as reference):

Yoke primaries: L1a and L1b
yoke secondary 1: L2 (25 / 18 turns)
yoke secondary 2: L3 (3 turns)
Inductor: L4
Grenade: L5

So i had both L1a and L1b disconnected / open.
Excellent. this was long overdue...
Let's add L6a and L6b for the choke before the rectifier.
   

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So very small difference.
...
There is almost no difference in the with and without "red capacitor" shorted situation.
This could mean that the impedance of the circuit in which the red capacitor participates is already at its limit at the Kacher's frequency, just like the impedance of a LC circuit approaches a limit as the signal applied to it approaches its resonance frequency or a frequency very far from from it.

So just because shorting the red capacitor does not make much difference to the amplitude of the current induced by the Kacher does not mean that it does not make a big difference to amplitudes of other frequencies.

But I digress. The largest takeway from your last experiments is that the differential currents induced in L2, L3, L4, L5 by the Kacher at 12V, are too small to meaningfully alter the currents driven by the PP circuit via L1a and L1b by superposition alone. However the yoke's ferrite will feel these currents unlike the rectifier, which is protected from them by the choke L6. 
I don't expect that increasing the supply voltage to 24V will increase these induced currents disproportionally. To obtain a reasonable proof of this I would need data from at least 3 different experiments using different supply voltages, to extrapolate from.
BTW: The device in Alexeev's video used 25V.

The differential currents induced in L2-L5 by Kacher are not the entire story. The Kacher also causes an electric Common Mode disturbance which the circuit seems to be designed to block at some places and allow in others.

According to the proposition outlined in my cheeseburger bet, the yoke's ferrite reacts in unexpected ways to these MHz induced currents and/or the electric CM disturbance, caused by the Kacher...and that is the real cause of the altered PP current.

It looks like the stimulus occurs in the MHz range and the ferrite's response occurs in the kHz range ...separation of these two signals is the purpose of the choke L6 and the red cap.
« Last Edit: 2021-09-06, 23:56:51 by verpies »
   

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Ok,  added L6a and L6b to the drawing.


Below are 3 screenshots with L2 L5 current (AC only 2mA/mV) with 12, 24 and 48V on the kacher collector.

So we have 24, 48.8 and 91.2mAmax.

Nothing shorted.

EDIT:  Ooops,  changed L4 to L5 as it is the Grenade current measured.

Linear prognosis added.

Itsu
   

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Below are 3 screenshots with L2 L5 current (AC only 2mA/mV) with 12, 24 and 48V on the kacher collector.
So we have 24, 48.8 and 91.2mAmax.  Nothing shorted.
...
Linear prognosis added.
Yes it appears linear or sublinear because at 48V the induced max current would be 96mA in an ideal linear model.  This is consistent with the gain vs. collector voltage characteristic of the common-emitter BJT amplifier.

So now we have a model which can predict the currents induced by the Kacher at higher supply voltages.

Do you remember what are the max currents induced in the same windings when only the PP circuit is driving the yoke ?
   

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I think i measured it here, but thats without the kacher AND with disconnected Inductor (L4):

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg93154#msg93154


So we see 15.4App (7.7A max.) there.

Itsu
   

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PS Probably it was bad idea to bring Alexeev's videos in discussions. It is more confusing than helping. Better stay with Stalker's info.
You are probably right.

Do you know of any other videos that show the output waveforms with the Kacher ON and OFF, while all other factors remain the same ?
   
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