The TPU: Is it Real ?

[Magluvin]

Clockwise.
You are projecting your experiences with motors onto a device that is not a motor.  Most likely the projection refers to 2 diametrically opposite stator coils/windings connected together and powered by 1-phase AC.
2 coils/windings <> 2-phase AC.

Below are two contrasting cases of clockwise and counterclockwise rotations caused by two-phase inputs with different phase shifts between them (90° and 270°).




If these two animations don't cause you to see the logic, then I don't think more words will help.

ok.  say that those coils, as i show, yellow and green were 4 independent, individually colored coils, can you show how you would drive them, series, parallel, even individually driven or individually driven pairs, in order to get a smooth  rotating magnetic field?  please show that. and im not an ether guy.   see, cant even spell it or i would be.   being you are only showing 2 out of phase inputs, then it could only be driven in pairs, not individually.  that i need to see...

then once that is revealed to work as you imply, what do you do with that? where is the gain function in that? if driven as you contemplate, where does your output come from?  and if what you say works as you claim to understand it to, what makes that better than just rotating a magnet?  input is required for each. just saying that im not in on the rotating field that some have suggested over the years.   how it could do any good in producing any gain has never been explained.  if it can be done as you say, then at the least there would only be larger exibitions of dense flux between the  windings, then 'maybe' stretching wider and weaker density exhibitions as 'the' rotation happens.  other wise a see just repeatedly squeezing a bloob as far as field be seen as.

anyway, im interested.  how is it wired and driven to get an even rotating field with the 4 coils, bifilar, whatever, and then explain how that gives us an output with gain function described.  then im in.

magluvin is the name. magnets are my game.

mags

[Magluvin]

having what i have, this is what im going to build with.  core halves that mate very flush that i took from induction driven fluorescent doughnut bulbs.  literally power induced into the inards of the glass tube.  anyway, ill easily wind 2 halves then bind the halves together and thread in the other 2 windings.  still working on what for the 4 secondary winding cores.  going for a pulse driven input to the yellow and green windings wired in series to buck fields. 

the red winding on the half core is not what im going to use.  was the begining of another project of just some test ideas, but this stands more important for now.  so ill go for 10 turns each green and yellow, and 30 turns each for the secondary orange cores, in series for 10v in, 120v out.   lol.  just silly aint it?  . yeah...   silly.

mags

[Verpies]

... and if what you say works as you claim to understand it to, what makes that better than just rotating a magnet?

It doesn't and I do not know how the TPU works.

I was just confirming two points of the analysis made by the author of that document and I explicitly stated that it does not mean that I subscribe to the remainder of his analysis.

I do not know.  I was just pointing out the winding topology as seen on these screenshots.
This does not mean that I subscribe to the other points of Razvan Niculae's analysis like his terminal connection diagram nor his proposed gain mechanism.

[chief kolbacict]

However, this motor with two 90 coils, always spin to single side. I don't know why.

[Verpies]

However, this motor with two 90 coils, always spin to single side. I don't know why.

Most likely because the white box shifts the two phases by 90º wrt one another.
The magnetic fields generated by the orthogonal pairs of coils sum vectorially like this:



Notice that the B-field Vector Sum has no problems achieving angles like 45º or 135º, despite that the coils are arranged only orthogonally and driven in pairs.
Full explanation would involve making a magnetostatic animation to visualise the evolving magnetic flux.  I am not on a device that can support an EM simulator now.  Maybe ask Itsu - I think he is near a device with a suitable simulator.

[chief kolbacict]

Most likely because the white box shifts the two phases by 90º wrt one another.

That's right. Exactly. It is a capacitor connected in series with one pair of coils. Between the stator and the squirrel-cage rotor there is a thin steel ring.
For some reason, the engine always starts rotating in one direction, and never the other. Could this ring be the cause?

[Verpies]

Yes, but the fields induced in the rotor are a different issue than the field geometries generated by the stator lest you conflate the interacting fields between the stator and rotor with the fields generated by the stator alone.
The TPU does not have a rotor.

[gyula]

EDIT: I have modified this post to prevent flame wars in a hope such things will not happen again... 

Gyula

[Magluvin]

Well then just delete the whole thread. your saying that the 2 phase shifted inputs would make a rotating field with the 4 windings shown on the bottom ring, but that is just an unproven theory, correct?

you are playing god here and not a fair one.  you brought up the pet theory thing and any response to it gets the boot because most likely it was just balony.

now everyone has to walk on eggshells here or fear to post as deletion by a biased judge is sure to come.

but i guess your the boss now, i guess.  do as you will.  ive said enough here.  i quit.

mags

[Room3327]

well then just delete the whole thread. your saying that the 2 phase shifted inputs would make a rotating field with the 4 windings shown on the botom ring, but that is just an unproven theory, correct?

you are playing god here and not a fair one.  you brought up the pet theory thing and any response to it gets the boot because most likely it was just balony.

now everyone has to walk on eggshells here or fear to post as deletion by a biased judge is sure to come.

but i guess your the boss now, i guess.  do as you will.  ive said enough here.  i quit.

mags

Mags, Have you read the thread in my bench, Large signal reciever,  I explain the 2 phase rotation and I have built a number of rotating fields and there is a schematic in there to build your own and I show how to connect the windings together for rotation.  All talked about over the years, please do a little research before whining.
Room3327

[Magluvin]

Mags, Have you read the thread in my bench, Large signal reciever,  I explain the 2 phase rotation and I have built a number of rotating fields and there is a schematic in there to build your own and I show how to connect the windings together for rotation.  All talked about over the years, please do a little research before whining.
Room3327

here is a quote from your thread in a screenshot. seems you and ac concure that it is not a true rotating field being had, 'specifically 2 phase as you say above here'...  i havnt even built it and knew the answer as i have been saying here in this thread.  furthermore nothing had ever come of it as i read in your thread.  time for new thinking.  i think i have brought that. completely different than anyone has posed before. simple to understand also.

mags

[gyula]

Hi Gyula,

I hope this post will not get deleted.

And I hope that you delete it yourself as it does not help to further research on the TPU and leads to no good.

Verpies, I agree. With my post above I did not want any quarrel either. I objected the way the posts got deleted without a word.

Done.

Gyula

[Room3327]

here is a quote from your thread in a screenshot. seems you and ac concure that it is not a true rotating field being had, 'specifically 2 phase as you say above here'...  i havnt even built it and knew the answer as i have been saying here in this thread.  furthermore nothing had ever come of it as i read in your thread.  time for new thinking.  i think i have brought that. completely different than anyone has posed before. simple to understand also.

mags

Hi Mags, No argument here, so what are you meaning when you say a true rotating magnetic field, as far as I know a magnetic field does not rotate as in the faraday disk sense, I thought everyone concurs the field itself does not rotate but is stationary,  the only way I know of to create a rotating magnetic field is to set it up, as in several coils, electronics etc.  With a 2 phase rotating field using 4 coils it travels around like a bar magnet.  Each cycle the field makes one complete revolution which is handy for speed, to increase rotation you just increase frequency and RPM goes up. Millions of RPM can be reached, but you probably know this already.  So what do you mean when you say a true rotating magnetic field?

[Magluvin]

It doesn't and I do not know how the TPU works.

I was just confirming two points of the analysis made by the author of that document and I explicitly stated that it does not mean that I subscribe to the remainder of his analysis.

ok.  im just replying to a few posts where i believe i have a right to do so....

nobody knows how the tpu works that i know of. to the limits of 'my' history in ou research, i know nobody. but there may be some.

the issue i have is that if i hadnt interjected that the 2 phase cannot work to make a rotating magnetic field after you presented you could as fact, read it again, then it would have been left here on these pages as fact and lets move on.  i say no to that, if i can. and my arguments have finally boiled it down to your post above in quote.  so now we know. was not a fact and beleivers who think it was fact and still do, well then let them have at it and prove it. i knew the outcome in my head. most here may think mags is an amature wannabe wizkid.  my experience in this field, electronics, mechaninics and magnetics is beyond where i used to be since my last yt posts.

in an earlier post, you implied that knowing about ebike bldc motors is not enough to understand what were looking at here.  hmm

3 phase.  has asymmetrical number of magnets vs stator coils. uses hall sensors to time stator coils switching, but there are new controllers that now prepulse the stators to find timing position of the magnets, initially to figure out which direction of rotoation needs to go, which would be forward. genius stuff.

7 phase, 7 stator series connected pairs, 16 magnet rotor all optical timing. a genius ebrake system that sent genrated current back to the battery pack and a charge controller would sequentially sent that ebrake charge to 1/3 of the battery pack at a time. 36v pack. a motor that would have to be rotating faster than max driven to produce higher than 36v to be effective. so sending that generated ebraking currents to 12v portions of the 36v pack is very effective. 30 nimh d cells in series, 50amp continuous output, 100amps peak.

magnetics? my yt ch should show a lot of experiments that over those years. i was an amature to begin with, but then i progressed. since then even further.

like room hitting me up that i should stop whining and do some research.  well son, i have.  and i think you should reread your own thread before sending me there to prove you wrong. i saw zero examples of a real life rotating field presented.  i would have though i might see some iron filings showing a rotating field or something.  even a compass needle wouldnt rotate in that situation.

anyway, i have responded to several post in one post. i should have the right to do so. i havnt called anyone a name or used curse words nor have i brought God into it. so hopefully the post remains and others get to read it, as it should be.

mags

[Magluvin]

Hi Mags, No argument here, so what are you meaning when you say a true rotating magnetic field, as far as I know a magnetic field does not rotate as in the faraday disk sense, I thought everyone concurs the field itself does not rotate but is stationary,  the only way I know of to create a rotating magnetic field is to set it up, as in several coils, electronics etc.  With a 2 phase rotating field using 4 coils it travels around like a bar magnet.  Each cycle the field makes one complete revolution which is handy for speed, to increase rotation you just increase frequency and RPM goes up. Millions of RPM can be reached, but you probably know this already.  So what do you mean when you say a true rotating magnetic field?

hey room.
what im thinking is, by an interpretation of 'rotating magnetic field' is just that. i agree with the need for individually driven windings and many in order to produce the desired effect, so, you already know what i mean.

say we have an armature from a standard dc motor. make it vertical axis and rotate the brushes instead. that would be a perfect example of a true rotating field.  or as you say, drive the individual windings electronically.  you should have a pretty nice, smooth looking rotating field around that stationary armature.  so beyond that, how do we use that to get ou? like i said earlier, this top and bottom ring tpu example, if it worked, has the most clues of all. if it had a suggested rotating field, assuming that the only windings are the 4 on the bottom, that we can actually see, then the only way i see that is to drive the windings individually, sequentially, whether it be pulsed or ac driven in a manor that still only, as ac had said in the post from your thread, wouldnt be an actual rotating of the field but more of a shifting from here to there, but what happend between here and there is not the same as an actual rotation.

im not saying that my theory, of which IS yet unproven, is the answer. but it is fresh. only within the last week it has come to mind and is making more sense to me as i go. but, here is where unproven theories should be presented, tested and laid to rest once proven wrong, or upheld as fact once proven right. but its not just the man with the theory that has to prove his argument, it will take others to prove it wrong also in order to put it to rest.

as i said before, im not seeing the rotating field idea having any key to gains of any sort. my example of seeing gains in multiplying the number of speaker drivers using the same tot power input for each test and increasing 3db output for each doubling of drivers should have the hairs on the back of everyones neck arise.  if sm was into audio, working with quadraphonic developements, its very possible he was on to that gain function.  recovering that gain via sound wave energy can be tricky. as i said earlier, if sm had the wisdom to convert the gain function in solid state form, this could be it. im giving it a simple shot with what i have and see.  if the top and bottom rings were iron, i can see the creative, intuitive thought of the circular bulges around the 4 squares, which i assume are rectangle cores, to make a better magnetic circuit between the cores and the rings. the 4 cores being wound with secondary receivers, pulsing the 4 ring windings in bucking config hits up both sides of the secondaries, adding up to the secondaries being driven by 2 drivers. 3db increase per say to the analogy of the speakers.

the turning the thing upside down and the possibility that the earths field affected it or gravity doesnt jive with me. id think that somebody over all these years with experiments would have encountered such effects. as strong as the earths field is, as i know it is, im not seeing that happening here with those fat few turn windings.  dunno. my opinion. for now i stand on that.

mags
e

[Verpies]

Your saying that the 2 phase shifted inputs would make a rotating field with the 4 windings shown on the bottom ring, but that is just an unproven theory, correct?

Incorrect.  That is not my theory and it is not a theory at all. The phenomenon of rotation from 2-phase inputs in quadrature has been proven mathematically and physically by many engineers and scientists and now is in the realm of facts.

in an earlier post, you implied that knowing about ebike bldc motors is not enough to understand what were looking at here.  hmm

I did not use the word "enough".  More like overapplying your practical experience with BLAC motors to the TPU and RMFs. e-Bike motors have rotors with physics of their own - the TPU does not.

the issue i have is that if i hadnt interjected that the 2 phase cannot work to make a rotating magnetic field after you presented you could as fact, read it again, then it would have been left here on these pages as fact and lets move on.  i say no to that, if i can. and my arguments have finally boiled it down to your post above in quote.

You have not provided any technical arguments that refute my following statement:

two pairs of windings are arranged and connected in that manner and they are energized by 2-phase sinusoidal AC current (90º out of phase) then a uniformly rotating magnetic field is generated.

I on the other hand, provided 3 technical animations that support that statement with technical descriptions involving the vector addition of the individual B-fields.
Chief Kolbacist has shown you a photo of a working motor with two pairs of coils:

If you wait, I will show you empirical proof too, where two pairs of coils create a rotating magnetic field to spin up a pole-less ferromagnetic projectile (a sawed off nail) for my nephew's coil-gun, so it does not tumble in flight.

so now we know. was not a fact

Did you come to that conclusion by ignoring my arguments ?
...and Chief's ?

...so what are you meaning when you say a true rotating magnetic field,

That's a good question for you Mags. 
Do you think that rotating magnetic fields do not exist at all or that they do but are real only if they are generated by mechanically moving sources ? 
If it is the latter than show me one experiment where a rotating magnetic field generated by mechanically moving sources is distiguishible from RMFs generated by stationary sources   (the experiment did not have to performed by you).

[Magluvin]

Incorrect.  That is not my theory and it is not a theory at all. The phenomenon of rotation from 2-phase inputs in quadrature has been proven mathematically and physically by many engineers and scientists and now is in the realm of facts.

well then id like to see that.  the only rotation i can see is some sequential driving of the 4 windings presented in the video being discussed as of late. and that would be a broken circle of rotation in 4 parts.  now, if we can see any evidence that the bottom ring had any windings on it before the thick supposed speaker wire was wound on that in 4 sections, similar to the tesla pat depiction, then id lean into looking at that.  we have to agree that it doesnt seem to be the case here. maybe.

the 4 squares, i once saw a pic pointing to one and was said to be a capacitor. strange for one to say it even looked like a cap, to me anyway. i lean heavily on that they were ferite cores.  having caps there or cores should probably rule out the idea of an underlying winding on the bottom ring, that protrude through that ring. would seem a quite odd situation.

im looking at having some iron rings made that emulate what we see in that particular tpu. with no actual measurements, it wont be exact. nobody could do that.  looks like could be 1/4in thick.  will have to obtain some cores first to work out the dimentions of the rings and bulges around the core ends to and bottom. thought of round instead, but the difference should be apparent when considering having the windings flat and straight on each side of the cores would be more receiving of the fields inducing them on either side. thinking


mags

[Verpies]

well then id like to see that.

Why isn't Chief's photo enough ?

...and that would be a broken circle of rotation in 4 parts.

Why would you think that ?
Is it because you think that these windings must be energized all or nothing ?
It is the only situation in which the rotation of the field would consist of 4 steps (broken into 4 parts).

However, if the windings are energized by an analog current then the number of field's angular positions is infinite because of continuous vector addition.

[Magluvin]

Why isn't Chief's photo enough ?

Why would you think that ?
Is it because you think that these windings must be energized all or nothing ?
It is the only situation in which the rotation of the field would consist of 4 steps (broken into segments).

ok
what is the arrangement of the armature?  if the 2 opposite stators are driven out of phase, would that be an actual rotation or shifting of the field?
didnt you say to me that i was projecting experiences with motors into a device which is not a motor??  are you now doing the same??

mags

[floodrod]

I'll add my 2 cents, take it o leave it.

I have build dozens of rotating field devices.  2 phase with 2 coils alone will work IF you use both sides of both coils.  One such configuration what absolutely causes rotation is attached. (although the reluctance path between the coils will cause stronger spots than others).

If only one side of the coils are used, then usually 4 coils are needed so you not only get 0,90 ,  But the same phases can be used on the other 2 coils for 180,270 to complete the 360 rotation.

The special thing of rotation is -  If done right, the output "CAN" be decoupled from the input.  Meaning the input does not scale linearly with output.  I can explain this all in my way, but it's long winded. And many ways to create this rotation do not result in complete decoupling. I believe the 90 degree phases CAN decouple if the geometry and setup is right.

BUT this alone does not produce Overunity.  In fact, the output of a virtually rotating field is usually horrible.  That brings us to the next piece..

If the input coil is decoupled and there is no physical rotor to oppose - then Lenz Law is not fulfilled. Contrary to most understandings, Lenz Drag is not a negative manifestation of power output.  Lenz Drag is actually WHY the large output power in a generator DOES manifest. 

So a virtual rotating field alone will not produce a large output unless the output magnetic field is opposed. An induced coil with no opposition becomes a choke. And you know what happens in a choke, the reactance is not squashed. hence the output coil produces minimal output.

To understand this, picture yourself hanging in the air trying to walk.  You will jiggle around a little, but you have no solid ground to push off of, so you don't really move much.  In order to actually move with real force, you MUST push off something solid (your foot's action must be opposed).

Back to the rotating field, this "Opposition" also has to be isolated from the primary rotating field. 

I have been working on this a while now,  how to geometrically arrange a decoupled rotating field that also fulfills Lenz, while NOT allowing the opposition coil to be induced by the rotating field.

I've tried dozens of ways and discovered many ways that don't work and my reasoning why it doesn't work. And I am in the process of trying a new way.

[Magluvin]

hey flood

the tpu we are looking at has 4 coils, 4 quadrants, with the ends of the windings on the bottom ring as shown below. there is considerable spacing between coil poles.  if the ring is magnetic or not, can you see a rotating field happening in this situation?

mags

[Magluvin]

looking at more shots of the tpu we are looking at, im now only seeing maybe 2 square cores opposite one another. in the other 2 corners of the rings i see what looks like a tan tubular component with radial axis, top and bottom in and out, and the other with a more small wall transformer look to it.

still looking

mags

[floodrod]

hey flood

the tpu we are looking at has 4 coils, 4 quadrants, with the ends of the windings on the bottom ring as shown below. there is considerable spacing between coil poles.  if the ring is magnetic or not, can you see a rotating field happening in this situation?

mags

I believe YES, but not uniform smooth rotation throughout.  But I think it can create almost perfect magnetic rotation if we only look at the 4 equal points within that structure. 

My methods to truly know if a magnetic field is rotating (and how smooth), I hook up 1 scope channel on a control phase running at the same frequency.  Then use an output coil so slowly move around the rotating field while watching the phase shifts.  If the output coil's phase slowly and meticulously shifts from 0 through the spectrum back to zero while moving - compared to the control phase, it is indeed rotating. This also shows you the hot magnetic hot spots, etc.  A perfectly rotating field will have equal potential shifting sine as you move it around the ring.

[Cheappower2012]

Here are some pictures showing how high energy pulses [CFL], thru a bifilar coil can light a CFL
[CFL2].
You could use lamp cord wire, the wires have to be close to each other.  It is possible that the TPU generates large current pulses during its operation and this is how you could change this to a usable form.  In a video SM uses a clamp-on meter to wrongly measure the current from the large TPU - he puts the clamp-meter on top of the TPU, across the gap.  Could it be that is a coil in a circle where the poles ends meet at the gap?

In this picture you see the meter SM used, react to a magnet near its center.  It would also react if it were a pulsing magnetic field.  The changing reading in the video indicates a magnetic field varying in strength vs a static field from a permanent magnet.

[3D Magnetics]

Yes!