The TPU: Was It Real ?

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aetherevarising	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #75 on: 2010-11-28, 02:00:17 »
Group: Guest	I have a problem with that video. He states that if that TPU runs for more than 15 minutes it will get so hot that it'll melt the tape. Then he shows that after 20 minutes it's barely cool. Then. The fact that it loses any voltage at all implies that it's not solid state. There has to be some chemical process to lose charge. If it were solid state it would absolutely not lose any mass or any voltage. And then the big question. If it loses charge how does one recharge it? Can it be recharged is the question? I understand this technology is now a decade or so old? If it's not recahargeable then it's considerably more costly than your average battery which makes its value moot. So. My question would be - is there a patent? And if not then why? If it was meant to be exploited then its technology would be open. Or is this another technology that was bought - and then buried by the MIB?

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #76 on: 2010-11-28, 16:36:17 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: aetherevarising on 2010-11-28, 02:00:17 I have a problem with that video. He states that if that TPU runs for more than 15 minutes it will get so hot that it'll melt the tape. Then he shows that after 20 minutes it's barely cool. Then. The fact that it loses any voltage at all implies that it's not solid state. There has to be some chemical process to lose charge. If it were solid state it would absolutely not lose any mass or any voltage. And then the big question. If it loses charge how does one recharge it? Can it be recharged is the question? I understand this technology is now a decade or so old? If it's not recahargeable then it's considerably more costly than your average battery which makes its value moot. So. My question would be - is there a patent? And if not then why? If it was meant to be exploited then its technology would be open. Or is this another technology that was bought - and then buried by the MIB? Quote He states that if that TPU runs for more than 15 minutes it will get so hot that it'll melt the tape. Then he shows that after 20 minutes it's barely cool. Did you mean "barely warm". We have no idea what the actual temperature rise over ambient was, as this was not measured. SM said the unit in question was rated at around 8 amps, he was drawing much less. He may have been referring to a full load condition. Quote The fact that it loses any voltage at all implies that it's not solid state. Quote If it were solid state it would absolutely not lose any mass or any voltage. I don't know how you arrive at this, and don't know the context in which you are using this term. Solid state has many definitions, please be more accurate in your statement. If you mean "solid state" in the context that it contained semiconductors devices as part of it's operation, it is no guarantee that it would have excellent regulation unless this was a factor in the design. e.g. It could have been a boost converter with or without without feedback regulation. A small drop in voltage under load can partially and possibly wholly accounted for by the positive temperature coefficient of copper wire, as I stated earlier. Depends on the gauge and length of the wire used and the temperature rise over ambient. Hidden batteries could not have have exhibited such a small drop in voltage over the time shown in the video. Based on their load line curves, the drop would have been much greater. If a boost converter was used, and the boost converter had some feedback regulation we could expect to see the voltage change witnessed in the video, around 1%. Quote And then the big question. If it loses charge how does one recharge it? Can it be recharged is the question? I understand this technology is now a decade or so old? If it's not recahargeable then it's considerably more costly than your average battery which makes its value moot. Please exercise due diligence and go back and read the Schinzinger lab reports. Apparently you have a misinterpretation of the device. Quote My question would be - is there a patent? And if not then why? If it was meant to be exploited then its technology would be open. Or is this another technology that was bought - and then buried by the MIB? These things remain a mystery on top of other mysteries surrounding the device. The deeper you dig, the deeper the rabbit hole. « Last Edit: 2010-11-29, 00:08:04 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #77 on: 2010-12-01, 00:17:21 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Food for thought: How many free electrons would have to be rotating in a loop of wire 6" in diameter and 16 gauge to produce a slight gyroscopic effect. What would the required speed of rotation be if all of the free electrons were in rotation. How many amps and what velocity would satisfy a slight but noticeable gyroscopic effect. Mass of an electron is 9.109 x 10^-34 grams 1 Coulomb=1A=6.2422 x 10^18 electrons passing a given point per second. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

cheappower2012	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #78 on: 2010-12-01, 01:37:13 »
Group: Guest	Good point ION,the weight of the units, the small ones were about a pound. Electrons are too light to effect the weight of an object,it would take a lot of electrons moving,its impossible for that to be caused by electron motion.Elimiinate that which is possible,what your left with althu impossible, is the correct answer. I noticed you didn't get involved with the bedini motor discussion,very funny stuff.

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #79 on: 2010-12-01, 02:10:26 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	God point, Ion. So, if it can't be electrons rotating, what else could it be? Quote It was found that inertia is not a fundamental property of matter, nor, indeed, an irreducible magnitude, but a property of energy. If an amount of energy E be given to a body, the inertial mass of the body increases by an amount E/c2, where c is the velocity of light in vacuo. On the other hand, a body of mass m is to be regarded as a store of energy of magnitude mc2. Would pulsing a coil with HV increase it's inertial mass?

itzon	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #80 on: 2010-12-01, 04:01:14 »
Newbie Posts: 19	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-12-01, 02:10:26 God point, Ion. So, if it can't be electrons rotating, what else could it be? Would pulsing a coil with HV increase it's inertial mass? An effect on gravity? Before anyone poopoo's this idea, just remember, if we knew exactly how gravity works, we could most probably alter or control it. Itzon

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #81 on: 2010-12-01, 07:44:24 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2010-12-01, 01:37:13 I noticed you didn't get involved with the bedini motor discussion,very funny stuff. The few times I have made intelligent (to me) posts that would put the Bedini issue to bed once and for all were quickly ignored. e.g running two Bedini motors in inverse parallel with two small batteries would quickly settle whether there was any OU taking place. Or using much smaller batteries so the testing could occur over a few hours rather than days. Or automated battery swapping with a single machine. All these posts were ignored with no comment by MH or others. If the idea is to engage in rigorous analysis, that is fine if one believes there is something worthy of analysis. I prefer much simpler "proof of the pudding" tests before I deem it worthy spending a lot of time with rigorous analysis. And I know how to do both, having spent 30+ years in the power control industry. If I had to engage in rigorous analysis for all the junk and bogus science out there, I would get seriously bogged down timewise. So it is my guess the discussion is continued in the attempts to teach electronics 101, a worthy and noble enterprise. If one enjoys that, so be it. When one becomes invisible on a thread, one should withdraw from that sandbox. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

MileHigh	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #82 on: 2010-12-01, 08:00:21 »
Group: Guest	Ion: I actually appreciated your comments but didn't comment because I had nothing to add because I agreed with them. They all made good sense. Sorry if you felt ignored because you weren't on my part, I just couldn't add anything. I think the thread is getting stale and will switch over to mostly reactive mode. Whenever some news of note happens then I'll comment. Even if there are only a handful of silent readers entrenched in the Bedini camp that are lurking, that's cool! lol MileHigh

cheappower2012	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #83 on: 2010-12-01, 09:01:23 »
Group: Guest	To MH very funny stuff, good job. To ION I don't involved for the same reason,if it can't be looped its a fake,if it can be looped but can't continue in a loop with a load its a fake ,has any big storage batteries(lead/ acid or other) its a fake every time.Has storage batteries big ones, its not a fake its a fraud,Hi Tech Snake Oil.

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #84 on: 2010-12-01, 14:52:44 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	So, if it can't be electrons rotating, what else could it be?

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #85 on: 2010-12-01, 18:01:07 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-12-01, 14:52:44 So, if it can't be electrons rotating, what else could it be? The jury is not out on electrons. I never said it could not be electrons, that was a conclusion of others. My question was how many electrons at what velocity for a slight effect. So how much faster than drift velocity would all of the free electrons in a 16 gauge 6" loop of copper wire need to be accelerated to for a slight gyroscopic effect? « Last Edit: 2010-12-01, 19:03:59 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Loner	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #86 on: 2010-12-02, 04:08:57 »
Group: Guest	Ion, I have always gone on the assumption that the "Electrons" rotating could not have been responsible for the "Gyro" effect. I mean "Directly" from just their mass. The current would have to be pretty high, and the speed very great. As I have never done the math, I admit this is a wild guess, but unless there is more info, I use "Feel" on a lot of things. I am left with two possibilities, assuming the effect exists. One, there is another "Thing" rotating, which attaches to the gravitational bias of the planet. (Backed up by Asplundh, if I spelled that right, great...) The needed math and proofs of that are much too much to get into here. Two, and this is less likely, but possible, the magnetic field is really rotating, and actually causing the wires / mass of the unit to contract or expand or alter position, causing an inertia-like effect. I highly doubt this, but cannot eliminate it as I have not seen or tested an operating unit for myself. Seeing that I cannot prove that it was real or not, the above may or

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #87 on: 2010-12-02, 04:37:51 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	For a rigid body rotating around an axis of symmetry (e.g. the fins of a ceiling fan), the angular momentum can be expressed as the product of the body's moment of inertia I (a measure of an object's resistance to changes in its rotation rate) and its angular velocity ω. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum So, a whole lot of electrons rotating very very fast. More electrons than are in the collector of the TPU, and spinning so fast that the material would come apart. If the drift velocity was that fast the material would vaporize from the heat, or be one hell of a super conductor. Note that the output of the TPU does not suffice as a source of the gyroscopic effect. The jury can come back in now.

wings	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #88 on: 2010-12-02, 11:45:15 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ION on 2010-12-01, 00:17:21 Food for thought: How many free electrons would have to be rotating in a loop of wire 6" in diameter and 16 gauge to produce a slight gyroscopic effect. What would the required speed of rotation be if all of the free electrons were in rotation. How many amps and what velocity would satisfy a slight but noticeable gyroscopic effect. Mass of an electron is 9.109 x 10^-34 grams 1 Coulomb=1A=6.2422 x 10^18 electrons passing a given point per second. Einstein-de Haas effect? http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/EinsteinDeHaasEffect/ http://wapedia.mobi/en/Einstein-de_Haas_effect "A mechanical effect accompanying magnetization" http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/american-physical-society-aps/a-mechanical-effect-accompanying-magnetization-Dacd3CePOe http://ultra.bu.edu/papers/Mohanty_NN_2008.pdf

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #89 on: 2010-12-05, 13:52:38 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	To Cheappower2012 I'm curious how you have drawn the conclusion that it is a static magnetic field in the TPU (SM17). I am unable to determine the UEI meter setting from the video's so don't know if it is on AC or DC setting. Are you able to see a polarity indicator in the video? Dr. Schinzinger says this: Quote I could not detect any time-varying magnetic field that might have provided an external energy input. Yet in your post, (8c conclusions) you say he was able to get a reading. The picture you posted, reproduced here, shows Dr. Schinzinger holding what looks like an air core sensing coil connected to some kind of meter. If there was a high frequency AC field around the TPU, it is doubtful he would have been able to detect it with this method, as the meter may have had a low pass filter. Lacking info on the meter and coil used, I will have to take his statement at face value. If there was a static magnetic field, he may not have been unable to detect it with an air core sensing coil, unless he was rapidly moving the coil. This leaves us with a few conclusions, which we can cover later. ------------------------ The TPU: Was It Real ? 8c.conclusions.JPG (49 kB, 500x600 - viewed 877 times.) « Last Edit: 2010-12-05, 18:01:37 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

cheappower2012	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #90 on: 2010-12-05, 22:36:14 »
Group: Guest	To ION On a dc amp setting, on the left side,center of the display screen theres a bar that comes up as he moves the meter it comes and goes, very hard to see.I used frame per frame and enhanced the frames very hard to see,if the reading was on ac amps a small ac would appear on the left side of the screen right below the center. The ac would not disappear when he moved the meter around if you set the meter to read dc amps.The meter will display a a small bar on the left side of the display, in the center that will come and go as you move the meter around.I reviewed the video SM puts the meter on dc amps,then puts the meter into hold mode so it doesn't react then presses hold to unlock it after hes passed the rim of the tpu. The meter has limitations remember its beening used outside of its normal operation,the meter can not tell if the field is a static magnetic field or a pulsing magnetic field or at what frequency its pulsing at.If we knew the type of meter the dr was using,we could figure out the settings he has it at.In the video he says hes reading 1.7 millivolts,the field is confined around the ring.The Dr's coil looks like it has a lot of windings,notice hes very far from the tpu,in taking hes readings.The field is pulsing but not at a high rate,the field must be very strong,it appears to be an air core coil not a iron or other core,it takes hundreds of amps to produce a strong magnetic field,and at these levels the coil will vibrate.I believe the coil(in tpu)is pulsing at a low frequency and carrying hundreds of amps,only a small portion of the coils power is transfered to the capacitors,remember in the Dr's report SM poped a fuse of 50 amps by shorting it across the ouput while at the same time it had the lights hooked up. Also remember Sm shorted the output terminals and produced a gigantic arc in a video.

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #91 on: 2010-12-05, 23:22:39 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2010-12-05, 22:36:14 The field is pulsing but not at a high rate,the field must be very strong,it appears to be an air core coil not a iron or other core,it takes hundreds of amps to produce a strong magnetic field,and at these levels the coil will vibrate.I believe the coil(in tpu) is pulsing at a low frequency and carrying hundreds of amps,only a small portion of the coils power is transfered to the capacitors,remember in the Dr's report SM poped a fuse of 50 amps by shorting it across the ouput while at the same time it had the lights hooked up. Also remember Sm shorted the output terminals and produced a gigantic arc in a video. Hundreds of amps in those 12 AWG-looking wires? Or some exotic energy field that has the equivalent of hundreds of amps?

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #92 on: 2010-12-05, 23:54:51 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	CP2012 Thanks for clearing that up.....I was not able to see what was going on with the meter as I have low res video's. I did some current testing of an open tpu mock-up with zipcord and found that I had to pass about 10 amps through the wire to get it physically too hot to touch. (as seen by SM gingerly touching the device in those videos on top of the speaker box) I'll see if I can find the test data and post it here. If there were 100 amps or so in the large tpu, then many wires had to be paralleled or as G says it may have been "some exotic energy field that has the equivalent of hundreds of amps?" all good information....still the mystery persists --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

cheappower2012	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #93 on: 2010-12-06, 00:12:00 »
Group: Guest	I have a device i made to test high current effects on wires it puts out 200 to 500 amps on a wire,the duty cycle is the important thing ,the on time is very short.I think its hundreds of amps for the tpu but for a very short time there maybe heat but not much remember the meter doesn't care as regards the magnetic field.The tpu may adjust the duty cycle as you draw more power the duty cycle results in more heat at a certain point the tpu must go up in flames the wire can't handle the amps.

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #94 on: 2010-12-06, 01:00:42 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2010-12-06, 00:12:00 I have a device i made to test high current effects on wires it puts out 200 to 500 amps on a wire,the duty cycle is the important thing ,the on time is very short.I think its hundreds of amps for the tpu but for a very short time there maybe heat but not much remember the meter doesn't care as regards the magnetic field.The tpu may adjust the duty cycle as you draw more power the duty cycle results in more heat at a certain point the tpu must go up in flames the wire can't handle the amps. That's a good way to test, another is SCR capacitor discharge method. A third is a large transformer with a single turn secondary fed from a Variac, can develop hundreds to thousands of amps at very low voltage depending on the turns ratio. So we can only guess at how such large currents were sustained in the TPU's. Pulse mode is one thing, sustained current flow is real continuous power. I will have to run a test to see if a 50 amp SSD fuse can be blown from the peak current discharge of a 800 Volt 400 uF capacitor. Got to locate the peak current curves for such a fuse. BTW, the flamelike discharge was due to a resistor in series with the leads (from SM). Now, where do we go from here? --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

cheappower2012	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #95 on: 2010-12-06, 01:26:13 »
Group: Guest	The coil transfers power to the caps the caps put out the power there low loss electrolytic capacitors.Sm used radio shack for many parts, you have to identify the structures in the 17" tpu. The tpu is low tech,people jump in and use hi tech parts it won't work.The tpu is mostlikely very easy build ,so easy to build that you couldn't sell it,so think low tech.

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #96 on: 2010-12-06, 01:38:14 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	So, how is this huge current created in the TPU?

ion	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #97 on: 2010-12-06, 02:31:19 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: cheappower2012 on 2010-12-06, 01:26:13 The coil transfers power to the caps the caps put out the power there low loss electrolytic capacitors.Sm used radio shack for many parts, you have to identify the structures in the 17" tpu. The tpu is low tech,people jump in and use hi tech parts it won't work.The tpu is mostlikely very easy build ,so easy to build that you couldn't sell it,so think low tech. I agree, it is low tech in the component usage, but I would say it is high tech in the configuration of the components. That is the part we need to understand. That it is most likely very easy to build, I also agree, but only after the configuration to produce the effect is known. e.g who could have had any idea how a laser or a vacuum tube would work before they were created.....same with the TPU....it appears to be magic, but once we understand it, we will all be saying "why is it no one thought of this configuration before?" What we need are a series of simple experiments aimed at increasing current flow in a loop that already has some current flowing in it. My guess is it will not use inductive transformer type effects, as these tend to produce a back emf which works against the forward EMF drive, effectively nulling it. Transformer action is nearly always a zero sum game as far as DC is concerned. Another method of enticing current flow to increase is needed. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumpy	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #98 on: 2010-12-06, 03:02:52 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3938 tExB=qr	spin a hv plate cap on the end of a Dremel tool, vertical orientation, ends open, see if it charges by the way, the dielectric is not the seat of effect as I once thought, the electric field is. Roentgen rotated the electric field "with" the dielectric!

Microcontroller	Re: The TPU: Was It Real ? « Reply #99 on: 2010-12-06, 05:19:30 »
Group: Guest	I have been spinng certain things at high speed in the past. Like neon bulbs, led's and wires attached to my portable drill. The idea was that the end of the wire was moving at the highest speed making the whistling sound and my goal was to make it spin faster then sound can travel or 340 meters per second. And yes i did measure a voltage when one lead of the meter was attached to the water pipe the other to the drill head. it was very clear but i remember it was too small to be of any intrest so i quit those experiments.

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