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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 219016 times)
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EMdevices

Thank you for this interesting theory of TPU operation. I have a few questions and hope you will expand on your theory and back it up with some practical experiments that we can attempt to replicate.

Question one: You said:

Quote
Now as the core saturates in cycles, a rectification of sorts begins to set in that gives rise to DC.  I already observed that in other experiments.  

In this statement, I assume you are referring to the small device that looks like a CM Choke, as I can not understand how an air core can saturate. Is this correct?

Question two: Why would it be necessary to  have a saturating device to produce DC. Why not use the AC directly? Or why not use fast diodes for rectification, 5kHz is slow compared to todays switching power supplies, and Schottky and fast recovery rectifiers were readily available in the 90's. I agree there may have been other unknown issues requiring this, I'm just raising the questions, as I believe the DC was produced directly somehow, without rectification as a new method (not flux variation) of inducing electrons to flow in a wire.

Thank you for spending so much time on this, as you stated. Certainly the enigma of the TPU continues to haunt many of us, as those who dig beyond the surface information know. We welcome any new cohesive theories of operation. I value your work in this area.



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The TPU definitely still haunts me, years later.   I think EMDevices suggested circuit is actually a pretty decent hypothesis; I may attempt it during my research.

One thing to keep in mind is that according to what I read, SM got all the parts at Radio Shack.  To me, this basically means the oscillators were:

(A) resonant RLC circuits
(B) 555-timer based
or
(C) some combination of (A) and (B)

   

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The TPU definitely still haunts me, years later.   I think EMDevices suggested circuit is actually a pretty decent hypothesis; I may attempt it during my research.

One thing to keep in mind is that according to what I read, SM got all the parts at Radio Shack.  To me, this basically means the oscillators were:

(A) resonant RLC circuits
(B) 555-timer based
or
(C) some combination of (A) and (B)


I recall that someone cleared up the Radio Shack claim (it might have been Jack Durban) and stated that SM got his components at a local electronics supply store.  This would expand the possibilities quite a bit.

   

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I post the stun gun circuit again. SM changed the output stage.
I mention this for many reasons but the eye opener was the transformer in the circuit is the same one as the little audio transformer that Radio Shack sells. Instead of the transistor one could use a 555. But why? Probably just mentioned as an alternative to bring in more potential tpu builders.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-01, 17:00:50 by giantkiller »


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 Something I read in this thread brought to mind the explanation I saw one time for the two small toroid coils in the middle of the large TPU.   For me it sounded like a significant find.  I believe 'bolt' on OU brought it up or may have at least explained it.  Magnetic Amplifier.  Seems to fit.  Has this idea been thrown out? 

   
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Ion, let me answer your questions:

1)  Yes, I'm talking about magnetic saturation of the core material in the CM Chokes.

2)   I believe the same,  DC production is an inherent property of the TPU design and any theory should address this phenomena. We can of course obtain DC easily with rectifying diodes, but the question is can there be another unknown DC producing mechanism?    This DC business has some importance because SM kept mentioning that these are DC devices, with a slight frequency of around 5 kHz.     If the device were to produce AC voltage only that would be OK too because we know how to use that just the same.     I have two theories of DC production that do not involve semiconductors, just coils and magnetic materials.

I'll post more stuff today

EM

P.S.   e2matrix,   I like the mag amp concepts, but here is the thing,  some of the TPUs do not have two toroids, just one.  It's true, saturation also playes a part in the mag-amps.   what's great about the TPUs is that we have a lot of them of different construction, and this can help us "curve-fit" if you will, and deduce what mechanism might be responsible.  A theory should be able to fit all of the TPU devices not just one, and I keep that in mind all the time so that I don't fall in love with one theory only.
   

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I think the TPU is more along the lines of a nuclear battery without the need for a radioactive isotope.

This matches some of the statements by SM:

1. He refers to the output conductor as a "collector".

2. He said a scinetist from the Atomic Energy Comission met with him (along with representatives from the FBI).

3. He said that the US Navy had a similar device since the 1950's (several patents for nuclear batteries appeared in the 1950's).

4. He made several refereces to tubes.   (Electron emission, doped components, etc.)

5. Reference to RCA Engineers:

Quote
Many people know that the solar cell was invented at Bell Labs, helped along by the men who created the silicon semiconductors that underpin electronics. But a far less well-known story today is the nearly simultaneous creation of what were known as “atomic batteries” by Bell Labs’ arch-rival, RCA, in 1954. As described in John Perlin’s From Space to Earth, the battery was made from silicon like a solar cell but, “it used photons emitted from strontium-90, one of hte deadliest residues of radioactive waste, to force the flow of electrons and positive charges” that drove the electricity.


   
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this just goes to show how frustrated we all are with this TPU and how we need to make sense of it in our own ways.   

speaking of nuclear stuff,   there was a picture posted showing some coils and a light bulb lit up, and in the center of the coils there was a rod, maybe welding rod?   That was quite interesting stuff if real.      Anybody have that picture?

EM
   

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I was told it made a good field indicator if balanced.


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this just goes to show how frustrated we all are with this TPU and how we need to make sense of it in our own ways.   

speaking of nuclear stuff,   there was a picture posted showing some coils and a light bulb lit up, and in the center of the coils there was a rod, maybe welding rod?   That was quite interesting stuff if real.      Anybody have that picture?

EM


The concept is well-rooted in under-developed science:

Polarize the vacuum with a strong electric field

The vacuum decays and particle pairs are produced.

Separate the particle pairs and collect them.
   
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I recall that someone cleared up the Radio Shack claim (it might have been Jack Durban) and stated that SM got his components at a local electronics supply store.  This would expand the possibilities quite a bit.



Ah okay, I stand corrected.  Regardless, I think we can probably agree the components are likely simple  (ie.  no nanobots)   ;)    Even with an electronics supply house, we are probably dealing with commercially available stuff which breaks into two broad, yet overlapping categories.

(A) Digital Pulsed DC (555 timers, transistors/MOSFETs, flip-flops, dividers, comparators, etc).
(B) Analog Resonant RLC AC/DC  (coils, chokes, inductors, capacitors, self-resonance, PLL, etc).

In category (A) we are dealing mainly with square waves, and (B) with sine waves, with perhaps overlap between the two  (like the goofy sharp gradient spikes in Joule Thief).

Forgive my digression here... I'm back after a few years away, and I've got built-up inspiration.  Here are the phenomenon upon which I am drawing inspiration for investigating TPU-like energy:

Joule Thief

There is argument about whether this circuit is COP>1 or not.  Regardless, it's really really efficient. Personally , I don't care if Joule Thief is COP>1 or not -- we can integrate toroid hash until we run out of beer -- Joule Thief important and fascinating.  It's highly efficient, self-resonating, and involves high-voltage DC spikes.  Plus , we have new areas to experiment with via Joule Ringer, which runs purely on caps.


Example schematic of one of many Joule Thief variations.


An example Joule Thief


A Joule Thief oscilloscope shot shows the voltage across the LED on the top trace and the transistor base voltage on the bottom trace.

Joule Thief example link
http://jormungand.net/projects/devices/joule/

Joule Ringer:

LaserSaber, from overunity.com, is to my knowledge the first to run a Joule Thief off purely a capacitor without a battery.  He uses the resonance to light CFLs for 5mins at a time and up.  From my understanding, he is also using some extra coils /transformer pulled out of a disposable camera flashbulp power supply.   This modified circuit (and it's derivatives) are known as 'Joule Ringers'.

Joule Ringer Thread
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10179.0


Joule Ringer Schematic.

Joule Ringer Powers 5 CFLs + 80 LEDs off electrolytic capacitor
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiaxDJuw4-Q[/youtube]

Similar to EMdevices micro-TPU...


Joule Ringer is similar to a micro-TPU circuit previously constructed by EMDevices


Naudin 2SGen

This circuit is fascinating, though no one has claimed COP>1 yet.  In terms of TPU research, the circuit demonstrates several important principles, namely , 1) Magnet Dependence: if and only if a neo magnet partially saturates flux in toroid do we get useful current output in the collector  2) Sharp DC: we are dealing with sharp-gradient DC spikes at 200hz - 5khz   3) OU Potential:  I suspect the device has potential for OU operation (as does Naudin apparently).  4) Digital Components: We are using 555 timers or function generator with square waves driving a MOSFET.  5) Regardless of received load, input current appears the same.


This circuit only works with the permanent magnet. Whether the 2SGen powers the High Power Leds lamp or not, the measured current through the toroïdal stator coil remains the same.



The other big discovery here is the importance of partial magnetic saturation of the toroid which changes the hysteresis curve significantly, similar to what Thane Heins is claiming in his devices (he is partially saturating the core flux for operation).


Above, the hysteresis curves of the toroïdal core at 200 Hz sine wave.


Above, the hysteresis curves of the toroïdal Nanoperm M-074 core at 200 Hz sine wave.


The downside to the 2SGen is that the input current is rather high.


Bob Boyce Resonant Toroid

Regardless of anyone's opinion of Bob Boyce (and yes I have my complaints), he has given a decent amount of publicly available information on TPU-related (scalar) theory.  While I wish he would disclose the details about his HEXFET controller , and how to induce scalar potential into a toroid, he has disclosed information regarding resonant electrolysis of water in order to exceed Faraday's 'law'.  


Bob Boyce Frequency Heterodyning via a Toroid

Boyce suggests we can electrolyze water very efficiently (multiples of Faraday yield) via resonance at F, F/2, and F/4, with the frequency heterodyning occuring via pulsed DC into an iron-powder core toroid.  (As a side not, I'll mention this is different from Steven Meyer's HV method.)  Anyways, in Bob's main publicly available controllers designs for this, he does not include the ability to self-tune the frequencies (so they are exact multiples) , nor does he include the ability for phase control (frequencies at specific phase offsets).


Bob Boyce Electrolyzer

But apparently down this path Bob Boyce took towards TPU-like scalar energy , of precise frequency control and heterodyning, lies the ability to induce scalar waves in the toroid, possibly with some sort of rotating magnetic or scalar component.  This is the part Bob does not want to share, apparently because it's too 'dangerous' or whatever.  Pardon me, but last time I checked this world was completely f*cked , and a few EM scalar runaways, lightning strikes, and/or localized spacetime curvatures are a small price to pay to liberate mankind.


Bob Boyce Heterodyning


Official Boyce Transformer Primary for Electrolysis


Bob Boyce Electrolysis secondary

From what I've read, Bob Boycegot mad at people at overunity.org.uk for attempting replication of phenomenon related to his HEX controller (also for electrolysis), specifically with those related to anamalous overunity battery charging phenomenon.  

Here are Bob's quotes regarding why he revoked his research, consent, and help:
Quote
The investor that was going to finance the manufacture and sales of those production units was made aware of this site by another party, and he has withdrawn. He was the one that sent me here to see what has transpired. I want to thank you for ruining all that I have worked so hard to achieve.

Quote
Bottom line is, no international patents means no products and no disclosures. Everyone loses. I will take the intimate details of this design to the grave with me if I must.

Bob Boyce

Bob Boyce gets mad at overunity replicators because of his pending patents
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?496-Bob-Boyce-Hex-Controller-Edited-02-01-2011/page5

In my opinion, this is really really selfish.  But what do I know.  I'd be pissed too if I got implanted with a carcinogenic microchip at someone else's lab.  Anyway, so the gist of it is, Bob may have replicated the TPU or TPU-like energy , but he's not willing to share.   I , on the other hand, am willing to share what I know and what I've discovered and researched.

Bob Boyce Scalar Toroid

There is a document floating around describing how Bob Boyce enhancing his water-splitting heterodyning setup further, which basically involved creating a TPU-like toroid overunity device.  I have no proof it works, nor do I have any proof that the information is legit and not disinformation, other than the fact Bob has said it won't work (which, ironically, lends it credibility in my eyes).  But it's a place to start.

The Bob Boyce Toroidal Power Unit
http://feynmanslab.com/images/post1/Bob_Boyce_TPU.pdf

--^ everyone needs to read this , experiment, and decide for themselves if it's legit TPU-like behavior and information.

The document describing Bob Boyce's scalar toroid is linked above, some of which I know he posted personally on the internet.  I know Boyce does not want this info out it seems.  Here are some images from that document for TPU replicators.   Notice it involves a biasing B-field on the toroid as well as Tesla-like longitudinal windings.  (remember Tesla's scalar energy bifilar collectors?)


Official Boyce Transformer Primary for Electrolysis


TPU-like Scalar winding and/or Biasing B-Field !


TPU-like Scalar winding and/or Biasing B-Field


TPU-like Scalar winding and/or Biasing B-Field


TPU-like Scalar winding and/or Biasing B-Field


TPU-like Transverse windings


TPU-like dependence upon EARTH HEMISPHERE


Bob Boyce TPU toroid biasing B-field for operation (fits with Naudin experiments)


Bob Boyce TPU Phase Timing.  This is probably why TPU phase control is so important.


Bob Boyce TPU supposed schematic


Bob Boyce TPU secondary


Okay well that's all for now.  Make sure you check out the Bob Boyce TPU PDF!   I'm not sure how much (if any) is legit TPU research, but it needs to be evaluated and discussed, and may make a useful point of departure.    My personal opinion is that at least 60-70% of the information in the PDF is legit -- especially the stuff not related to the hypothetical 3D diagrams (which might be incorrect).

I'd follow the words Bob is saying very carefully.


The Bob Boyce Toroidal Power Unit
http://feynmanslab.com/images/post1/Bob_Boyce_TPU.pdf

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I remember the BB ring, and I take all of that with a grain of salt now.

   
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Bob's quote on the TPU PDF I posted for you guys:

Quote
"That [Bob Boyce TPU] document was compiled from outdated information that was posted by me many years ago. It was someones attempt to take information from some of my posts in a private section of that forum, and apply some of their own interpretations to it to fill in missing details. They did not differentiate between what was from me, and what was not. They provided a list of incorrect specifications, and even some wrong ingredients, that were not taken from my posts. The toroid shown being wound was for an early generation hydroxy gas toroidal power system. They are no longer wound with underlying magnet wire, or 6 primaries. It would be a pretty good document if you were able to tell which parts were copied from posts written by me, and which parts were added by the author of that pdf. I'm not sure of the intent of the added content, but it surely is not very accurate."
-Bob Boyce
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?496-Bob-Boyce-Hex-Controller-Edited-02-01-2011/page5


Bob Boyce TPU file

http://feynmanslab.com/images/post1/Bob_Boyce_TPU.pdf
   
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Feynmen,  thanks for that nice long picturesque post.  I'm more motivated now!

EM
   
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Battery Charging with the Hex Controller (4/4)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNx6J2uYXHA[/youtube]

PESWiki: Bob Boyce Hex Controller
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bob_Boyce_Hex_Controller

It was the attempted replication by overunity.org.uk of the above linked Hex Controller circuit that prompted Bob to take his ball and go home.  I definitely think there is something to this, but the effect will require a high-powered PWM circuit with a common F type clock, with harmonics such as F/2 and F/4 acquired via pulse division or shift registers or whatever.

Basically a digital PLL-type circuit with tunable phase, perhaps under microcontroller supervision.  The three frequencies should have a mathematically derived relationship with precise a clock divider.  If nothing else such a circuit can be used to split water or do harmonics and TPU-related research.

   
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A graphic to put things in perspective.
   
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  Thanks for the summary, Mr. Feynman.  I have spent some time looking at LaserSaber's work which I find interesting, but apparently somewhat hard to replicate as I read on other forums (fora?).

   Can you tell us, has Lasersaber provided the additional details that he promised in his first youtube on this JouleRinger?
   
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I'm not sure about any details on Joule Ringer, as I have not replicated it.  You can contact lasersaber on overunity.com or youtube.   I'll probably try a replication soon; I need to move my oscilloscope out of storage, organize my components, etc, so it will be a couple of weeks.   I'm sure there are probably some tuning issues with the circuit , unlike Joule Thief which is more or less "EZ mode".

Back to TPU research...  I just wrote up some wave heterodyning modeling software in Pure Data... this lets you model PLL (phase-locked) square waves of even and odd multiples, with separate phase control and PWM on each wave!   With built-in software scope and audio output!   This shows us how a phase locked HEXFET output might look (without the magnetics)!   



To use, download and install PureData Extended from http://puredata.info/community/projects/software/pd-extended  .  Then just download and open the PD file I have provided, and you can experiment with heterodyning square waves before you wire the MOSFETs.

FeynDyne v1.0 D1  - Wave HeteroDyning Modellng Software in PureData , for experimental physics
http://www.feynmanslab.com/docs/
http://www.feynmanslab.com/docs/feynman_osc_tpu2_multi_D1.pd

Cheers,
Feynman
   
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RE:
Quote
"Joule Thief

There is argument about whether this circuit is COP>1 or not.  Regardless, it's really really efficient. Personally , I don't care if Joule Thief is COP>1 or not -- we can integrate toroid hash until we run out of beer -- Joule Thief important and fascinating.  It's highly efficient, self-resonating, and involves high-voltage DC spikes."

The efficiency of a typical JT is 40 to 60 percent.

If it were "self-resonating" (sounds like a bogus term to me) or more like just resonating, it would have sine waves, not pulses.

If the voltage got to any higher than 4V, it would burn out the LED.  No high voltage spikes.

Gee, that's the best I've done in weeks.  Three out of three!  All three duds!

After designing and building hundreds, I can say for certain those are the facts.
   
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RE:
The efficiency of a typical JT is 40 to 60 percent.

If it were "self-resonating" (sounds like a bogus term to me) or more like just resonating, it would have sine waves, not pulses.

If the voltage got to any higher than 4V, it would burn out the LED.  No high voltage spikes.

Gee, that's the best I've done in weeks.  Three out of three!  All three duds!

After designing and building hundreds, I can say for certain those are the facts.

I agree, from all my recent bench tests using RC filtering and one ohm shunt resistors, I rarely saw more than 60% efficiency. Some years ago one of my assignments was to research the design and construction of very small efficient switchmode power supplies. I never saw anything close to overunity in those devices then or now. I don't know what everyone is measuring, but I like the tried and true methods of a good DVM and passive filter over DSO's.

Carry on guys, but I'm out on this one.


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Super Good Posts.

Remember that SM complained a lot that his TPUs would only work for about 20 minutes, due to EXCESSIVE HEAT.

Therefore, I would "surmise" that was due to HIGH CURRENT FLIP FLOPPING back & forth between his Ferrite Core & the Outer TPU.
Since Electrical Heat requires High Current, Can we further "surmise" that PUNY LITTLE Circuit Chips operating in Milliamps are NOT THE SOLUTION.
In hindsight, the field is littered with NON WORKING TPUs that have been tried over the past 4 or 5 years.

Notice the Ferrite Core on SM's 8 inch TPU.  The ARROW points right to it.

Here's the deal.  If we cannot figure out the wiring configuration between the Ferrite Core & main TPU, we don't have a chance folks.  Sorry.

.


PS:  Why do so many still IGNORE the photos of SM's TPUs?  For example, NONE of his TPUs have circular, concentric wiring.  Yet almost
     everyone still insists on doing it.  Strange.

.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-04, 21:04:00 by AllPhase »
   
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The efficiency of a typical JT is 40 to 60 percent.

How did you measure "efficiency"?  What specific parameters, and at what specific points in the circuit?  What do you have to say about this:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=717.msg11577#msg11577


Quote
If it were "self-resonating" (sounds like a bogus term to me) or more like just resonating, it would have sine waves, not pulses.

I disagree.   If it were a self-resonating RLC tank would have sine waves, but this is not an RLC tank.  This circuit is a typical.  Let me quote the skeptics Bible wikipedia here (the source for said 'bogus' self-resonating term)

"The circuit uses the self-resonating properties of the blocking oscillator, combined with a flyback converter circuit, to form an unregulated boost-mode switching power supply."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_thief


Quote
If the voltage got to any higher than 4V, it would burn out the LED.  No high voltage spikes.

Nonsense!  You've obviously never build a proper Joule thief and measured the voltage with an analog scope.  The voltage pulses are well in excess of 4 volts.  Can you show me your Joule thief scope traces?


Quote
Gee, that's the best I've done in weeks.  Three out of three!  All three duds!

What on earth are you talking about.  I really hope you have something useful to contribute.


Quote
After designing and building hundreds, I can say for certain those are the facts.

Then by all means, link your schematics, photographs, scope traces, and power measurements.  Please enclose all the details and 'facts' in context of experimental results.

Let's try to be scientists and technicians here, and not have this devolve into all too common know-it-all discussions found elsewhere.

   
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@acmefixer
Quote
The efficiency of a typical JT is 40 to 60 percent.
typically mine run at 95+% conversion efficiency --- "typical" can be a relative term.

Quote
If it were "self-resonating" (sounds like a bogus term to me) or more like just resonating, it would have sine waves, not pulses.
You seem to have just answered your own question as to what many are obviously doing wrong, could a person bias the output so that a sine wave never evolves? what are the consequences?

Quote
If the voltage got to any higher than 4V, it would burn out the LED.  No high voltage spikes.
I have sent 100v fast transient impulses into an LED with no harm so we should be specific, 4v DC will burn out an LED but a pulsed voltage can be substantially higher.

Quote
Gee, that's the best I've done in weeks.  Three out of three!  All three duds!
If your best involves confusing the issue then yes you have done well.

Quote
After designing and building hundreds, I can say for certain those are the facts.
"Facts" is a relative term, your facts are not my facts and I seem to have no problem producing circuits which do what you say cannot be done.

 wow, Feynman I just saw your post--- we are a pretty tough crowd concerning the critics ;D

Regards
AC
« Last Edit: 2011-03-04, 18:53:28 by allcanadian »


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If we cannot figure out the wiring configuration between the Ferrite Core & main TPU, we don't have a chance folks.  Sorry.

This is only important if you think the TPU had such a core or ferrous material in some other part.

A TPU may have had iron wire in coils but I seriously doubt there is a ferrous core in any of them.
« Last Edit: 2011-03-04, 22:20:26 by WaveWatcher »


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@Allphase
Quote
Here's the deal.  If we cannot figure out the wiring configuration between the Ferrite Core & main TPU, we don't have a chance folks.  Sorry.
Im not sure I would agree, when I look at any given device the first thing I do is look past what my eyes see, I look past what my mind tells me should ordinarily happen and I look for the fundamental process. The components and wiring are unimportant in respect to the process which determines the component properties, these properties initiate cause and this action leads to specific effects. As such I do not think any amount of wiring diagrams or explanations will help until the primary process, the mechanism for gain, is disclosed or fully understood. At this point anyone could build devices wired in almost any way with various materials and the technology would evolve rapidly.
I think the real issue follows this phrase--- "give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach him to fish and he will never go hungry", but once I have taught you how to fish then what good am I?. I think SM disclosed information to help himself and his cause to make more money and become famous not to help people persay, if he really wanted to help everyone then he would have disclosed the primary process at which point he would no longer be needed, a selfless act.
Maybe we should start asking the right questions:
1)Considering the TPU what mechanism or cause and effect do we know of that can produce a gain in energy?
2)If there is a mechanism which can produce a gain in energy then what is the source of this energy?
I think that when these questions can be answered then there will be very little we cannot do with this technology.
Regards
AC


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