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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 106450 times)

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   Verpies:
   It is a single coil, unlike the grenade or gradient coil. As the calculator only works for the straight single coils. But, not for the grenade type of coils.

   My question remains, why 37.5 or 42, or 46 meters long??? WHY that size?  It that size a "ONE SIZE fits all"??? 
Because I doubt it... As Russia is on the other side of the world, from where I am. And frequencies may not be the same.
So what is the grenade size or self resonant frequency being matched to? 
   Maybe I should test to see if my set up will self run at less than 100w output. Like Vasik mentions...  But,   I know it won't...

   NickZ

Nick,

as i understand Stalker, the trick is to get both the LC resonance and the standing wave resonance the same.

Depending on the wire used (thickess of core and insulation) and the bobbin (wall thickness) used, there will be a match giving you the length of that wire.

So my 3.4mm thick wire gave 47m as best length, now this 4.2mm thick wire gives 37.5m as best length.

Itsu
   

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   Itsu:
   Ok, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Thanks for your explanation. I pretty much get that.
But, I still don't see what or how any of the calculator info has to do with Spacial Resonant frequencies, to tune to in the first place. So, that the "bobbin" cores, wire used, turn count etz... match the surrounding energy fields. Perhaps that has nothing to do with it? But, I feel that it does. Like tuning into a radio signal. Like Radio Moscow...  Or not? Which my device tends to go in and out of, like a poor radio signal does on a normal radio receiver.

  Ok, so let see what happens at 3MHz, if there is any one home, there. The trick then is to match the LC resonant frequency to the Standing wave, both  at 3MHz, or so. That is, IF there is a standing wave to be found there.

   NickZ
   

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Itsu,
Yes, this is correct.
Sergey says that it is much easier to get system working with kacher, so I decided use it for now.

Vasik

   Vasik:
   At one point some years ago, itsu and I were going to replicate the 3 mosfets, 1 transistor version of Stalker's controlable Kacher circuit.
Which is also tied and connected into the TL494 induction circuit board. Well, I did not get that far, but I did replicate Stalker's induction circuit, below. And I had planned on continuing on with the controllable Kacher.
   itsu chose an easier option for the kacher circuit at that time.  But, now Vasik has offered his version of the board for those same drivers and controllers. And so, I'm hoping to see Vasik's new board all assembled, and working. I suppose that is the idea for him. I'll be watching and waiting for that, and holding my breath.

   NickZ
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
Nick lets take a look at the 37.5 mtr Grenade it has 14 sections of  ¼ wave made up of

4 wound one way and 4 back the other way =8 sections used

next we have the ½ wave section 2 sections one way and 2 the other way back = 4 ¼ wave sections
so now we have used 12 of the ¼ wave sections .

Next we have one layer of the ¼ sections wound one way and another on top wound the other way
So that’s a total of 14 ¼ wave sections.

Now the next problem is finding the width of each ¼ wave that’s wound occupies

One way to do this is with Ruislan/Panov  formula is to devide by 2 and convert the mtrs to cmtrs
So 37.5 meters would be a grenade width of  18.75 cmtrs so each ¼ wave width is 4.6875 cm.
That’s my calculation if any knows any better let me know.


AC note the copper or alloy tube contains a sauce of free electrons !
SIL
« Last Edit: 2021-04-21, 19:40:12 by AlienGrey »
   

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Nick lets take a look at the 37.5 mtr Grenade it has 14 sections of  ¼ wave made up of

4 wound one way and 4 back the other way =8 sections used

next we have the ½ wave section 2 sections one way and 2 the other way back = 4 ¼ wave sections
so now we have used 12 of the ¼ wave sections .

Next we have one layer of the ¼ sections wound one way and another on top wound the other way
So that’s a total of 14 ¼ wave sections.

Now the next problem is finding the width of each ¼ wave that’s wound occupies

One way to do this is with Ruislan/Panov  formula is to devide by 2 and convert the mtrs to cmtrs
So 37.5 meters would be a grenade width of  18.75 cmtrs so each ¼ wave width is 4.6875 cm.
That’s my calculation if any knows any better let me know.

SIL

This calculation does not make sense for me.
Sergey's instructions how to make/tune coil seems more reasonable.
1/4 length of wire first layer, 1/4 length of wire second layer, rest 1/2 length reverse turns.

Vasik


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   Although my grenade is now getting pretty old, but it still works as it always did to provide for the highest output of any of the other replications, shown on OU.com, including Geos. I don't want to start messing with it, as it took a while to get to that point, and I think that it's ok, for now.
I did my best to divide it out on the ground and wind it as carefully as I could, at that time. It is a Ruslan type of design, which he replicated from Akula's second device. Mixing different peoples designs and circuit versions is not what I want to do. I'll stick with Stalker, and his versions and ideas, as I trust him over any one else. And, so far what he has shown and his schematics and designs have worked for me, to the degree that I could follow him on it.
   

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   Itsu:
   Ok, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Thanks for your explanation. I pretty much get that.
But, I still don't see what or how any of the calculator info has to do with Spacial Resonant frequencies, to tune to in the first place. So, that the "bobbin" cores, wire used, turn count etz... match the surrounding energy fields. Perhaps that has nothing to do with it? But, I feel that it does. Like tuning into a radio signal. Like Radio Moscow...  Or not? Which my device tends to go in and out of, like a poor radio signal does on a normal radio receiver.

  Ok, so let see what happens at 3MHz, if there is any one home, there. The trick then is to match the LC resonant frequency to the Standing wave, both  at 3MHz, or so. That is, IF there is a standing wave to be found there.

   NickZ


Nick,

that "Spacial Resonant frequencies" and "match the surrounding energy fields" is something i think you have running around in your head  ;) , its not something Stalker is talking about.

I don't think it is like a radio signal, as its more or less pumping energy from the ground to my understanding.

Your "Radio Moscow" you and others report, i think, is feedback/oscillations in your circuits (TL494 => Kacher and back) and could be solved by shielding and/or decoupling your signals/voltages.

Itsu
 
   

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I used 2 methodes to determine this single coil LC resonance frequency.

Screenshot 1 shows a 10s sweep from 10KHz to 6MHz with a sharp resonance peak in the middle at almost 3Mhz.
Screenshot 2 shows the ringing response on a square wave pulse pointing to a selfresonance frequency of 2.91Mhz.

So the calculated 3.05Mhz is within reason.

Itsu
   

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Using Stalkers pulse amp circuit, it measured the standing wave resonance while one side was grounded (forcing it into ¼ wave).

The below screenshot shows the peaks after tuning for max. signal to be 3.059Mhz.

So it looks like this single coil is correct or very close to the matched resonances.


I do still have my doubts if this last test really shows the standing wave resonance and not again the LC resonance.

Itsu
   

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Nick,

that "Spacial Resonant frequencies" and "match the surrounding energy fields" is something i think you have running around in your head  ;) , its not something Stalker is talking about.

I don't think it is like a radio signal, as its more or less pumping energy from the ground to my understanding.

Your "Radio Moscow" you and others report, i think, is feedback/oscillations in your circuits (TL494 => Kacher and back) and could be solved by shielding and/or decoupling your signals/voltages.


   itsu:  Ok, thanks again for your input.
    If I don't hear the "radio moscow" sound, I know that I don't have and won't have any interaction. That's why I pay attention to it.
 As far as pumping energy from the ground, I don't think that is the case. Yet, we see that the ground is needed, and it's part of the circuit.
Although, there is no agreement as to the ground line size. 10m 20m 40m...
   What I'm asking was not brought up, you're right. So, WHY is the grenade coil made at 37.5 or 46m. What's with THAT size?
Is that not an important question? Or, is that the magic frequency?  Or, maybe no one knows??? Or cares.
   

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Nick,

"that "Spacial Resonant frequencies" and "match the surrounding energy fields" is something i think you have running around in your head  ;) , its not something Stalker is talking about."

   itsu:  As I don't understand Russian it would be easy to miss some important detail mentioned by Stalker, Adrian, Ruslan, Akula, or any of them.
 Yet, I spent about a year playing along with Dr. Stiffler and his "energy out of thin air" projects and ideas concerning this Spacial Resonant frequency. Not just my imagination. To then tie that info into the current project. Which no one here has got working, for some unknown reason.

   

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   Vasik:
   At one point some years ago, itsu and I were going to replicate the 3 mosfets, 1 transistor version of Stalker's controlable Kacher circuit.
Which is also tied and connected into the TL494 induction circuit board. Well, I did not get that far, but I did replicate Stalker's induction circuit, below. And I had planned on continuing on with the controllable Kacher.
   itsu chose an easier option for the kacher circuit at that time.  But, now Vasik has offered his version of the board for those same drivers and controllers. And so, I'm hoping to see Vasik's new board all assembled, and working. I suppose that is the idea for him. I'll be watching and waiting for that, and holding my breath.

   NickZ
this circuit bottom half ? s1.pdf (103.18 kB - downloaded 10 times.) you might just as well shove the katcher up the centre of the grenade and feed it with the ring modulator frequency as all it does is turn the self oscillating feed back circuit of the Tesla coil on and off at the right moment, the point I’m making is the tesla coil is not logic gate modulated with that circuit as some are but that one is not.  But does trigger at the correct time in the wave  but in saying that if the katcher isn't oscillating all time how does it produce a standing wave or the harmonics C.C mind boggling I need to see a scope shot of a working machine,  >:-) >:-)

Regards SIL
   

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I do still have my doubts if this last test really shows the standing wave resonance and not again the LC resonance.
I think that this Stalker was talking about the voltage potential flapping at the ungrounded end of the coil in this video.

It is important to remember that the ground lead acts as a counterpoise for the antenna (the coil). It is an electric reflector that has non-mirror image currents flowing in it. The 1/4 wavelength antenna and the counterpoise together form a 1/2 wavelength dipole antenna.  This is the same mechanism as with the Vertical Monopole Antennas.  This means that electrically, the counterpoise needs to be at least as long as the antenna (ideally: an infinite conducting surface).

For example, in order to have the best omnidirectional reception of a 100MHz radio station, the vertical whip mounted at the center of car's roof needs to be 1/4 of the wavelenth of 100MHz ...or 75cm.  The non-mirror image currents flowing in the metal roof act as the other leg of a vertical 1/2 wavelength dipole antenna.

The E-field of the flapping coil end can be sensed (via capacitive coupling) with a neon bulb on a metal stick or with a naked scope probe (or SA probe) like shown in this video.  This of course presents danger to your test equipment if you get too close.  Attaching a piece of aluminum foil to the probe's tip, extends its sensing distance.
Another way is to sense the H-field via induced current in a loop of wire positioned at the opposite end of the coil.

There is a third way to sense the standing wave, too. Namely, when the coil is ungrounded and driven at its midpoint (e.g. by a separate single loop) and treated as a 1/4 wavelength dipole, then its VSWR reaches maximum (ideally - infinity) and that means that the coil will STOP acting as a radio antenna and will not radiate any far-field radio waves (only near E & M fields, a.k.a. "reactive fields").  See this video versus this video.
This means, that a radio receiver positioned very far away (in the "far field") will STOP receiving the RF carrier wave, when the 1/4 wave antiresonance is achieved.

Conversely, when the coil is ungrounded and driven at its midpoint and treated as a 1/2 wavelength dipole, then its VSWR reaches minimum (ideally - unity) and this means that the coil becomes the best far-field radio wave transmitting antenna at this frequency.

The SA could conceivably be used as this radio receiver when a suitable half-wave dipole antenna is attached to it.  Just keep it very far away and galvanically isolated pwr. supply from the transmitter.

BONUS RANT:
Is is worth remembering that the quadrature magnetic near field strength falls off with the inverse-cube of the distance from the antenna (1⁄r ³), while the electric near field strength falls off with the inverse-square of that distance (​1⁄r ²) and the amplitude of the classical radiated radio waves (far-field EM RF waves) falls off  with the inverse of the distance (​1⁄r ).   This is why enginners and hams prefer to use the far field EM radio waves for long-range communications (although they are limited to the speed of light).  There is a long-standing controversy around the claim, that the near fields transfer energy faster than light, though.


   

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verpies, an amazing piece of info again,  much appreciated, i have to sit down and absorb all of it.


I was testing for standing wave resonance using Stalkers setup (see my post #233) using his pulse amp as presented in the rk_rev2.pdf on page 58/59.

In the video presented there it shows the pulses on the drain of the MOSFET, see picture below.
From the text i understand that the shown duty cycle (3.7%) is important, he writes:

here we will monitor the signal at the drain of the transistor
this is frequency
frequency of LC resonance for this coil
but duty cycle will be such so that pulse length will correspond to the length of signal
which would be at the frequency of wave resonance process in this coil


Especially that last part suggest there is a way to determine what the (standing) wave resonance frequency of this coil is using the duty cycle.

Is that probable?

Itsu
   

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Itsu,

my understanding is that pulse should be short enough, no exact match needed I think.

Vasik


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Itsu,

You have now coil with very close LC and wave resonances.
If you want observe them independently, you can connect small capacitor (e.g.10pf) parallel to the coil.
It will offset LC resonance frequency, wave resonance will stay as it it. You then will see two peaks on sweep.

Vasik


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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Quote
Itsu,

my understanding is that pulse should be short enough, no exact match needed I think.

Vasik


Hi vasik,

ok, but when you say "no exact match needed", does that means he is not using this setup to "exactly" determine the wave resonance frequency (what i thought he did)?

Itsu
   

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Itsu,

You have now coil with very close LC and wave resonances.
If you want observe them independently, you can connect small capacitor (e.g.10pf) parallel to the coil.
It will offset LC resonance frequency, wave resonance will stay as it it. You then will see two peaks on sweep.

Vasik

The LC resonance is very touchy, any movement of hand / body moves the resonance point, so i can use that.

But what do you mean by "You then will see two peaks on sweep"?   
You mean the sweep i used in my post #232 (screenshot 1) which i think only shows LC resonance or do you mean on the SA?

Itsu


P.S.  sorry to be so picky guys, but i think its important to get these two resonance points defined as clear as possible.
   

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Hi vasik,

ok, but when you say "no exact match needed", does that means he is not using this setup to "exactly" determine the wave resonance frequency (what i thought he did)?

Itsu

Well, he didn't say that (translation is word-to-word). He test that resonator works and ground wire increase amplitude.

Vasik


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The LC resonance is very touchy, any movement of hand / body moves the resonance point, so i can use that.
But what do you mean by "You then will see two peaks on sweep"?   
You mean the sweep i used in my post #232 (screenshot 1) which i think only shows LC resonance or do you mean on the SA?
Itsu
P.S.  sorry to be so picky guys, but i think its important to get these two resonance points defined as clear as possible.

I mean that when LC and wave resonances matched (or very close) you see it as one resonance with very high Q.
If you de-tune coil e.g. with external capacitor then you can see resonances separately.
Sweep - I mean test where you feed frequency changing signal from SG and observe amplitude on scope.

Vasik


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Itsu,

As an exercise, to see difference between resonances and gain more understanding you could take e.g. 10m of coax cable and pulse it with short pulses.

Vasik


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I mean that when LC and wave resonances matched (or very close) you see it as one resonance with very high Q.
If you de-tune coil e.g. with external capacitor then you can see resonances separately.
Sweep - I mean test where you feed frequency changing signal from SG and observe amplitude on scope.

Vasik

Ok,   so like in my post #232 (screenshot 1), i can do that tonight, however i never have seen 2 separate peaks when doing such testing, but perhaps i need to look at a smaller sweep range.


Quote
As an exercise, to see difference between resonances and gain more understanding you could take e.g. 10m of coax cable and pulse it with short pulses.

Well,  i am kind of familiar with that TDR on a coax and know what to expect, but using it on a coil is a different matter as i tried yesterday, but could not get it to show anything.


Itsu

   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Using Stalkers pulse amp circuit, it measured the standing wave resonance while one side was grounded (forcing it into ¼ wave).

The below screenshot shows the peaks after tuning for max. signal to be 3.059Mhz.

So it looks like this single coil is correct or very close to the matched resonances.


I do still have my doubts if this last test really shows the standing wave resonance and not again the LC resonance.

Itsu

Hi Itsu.

I think I now understand what you are trying to do for this step, but what exactly are you doing in this test as a way to measure wave resonance?

Questions I have for anyone:

1) can one treat a single straight wire as a transmission line (TL)? If C component and coupling is to environment, I suppose yes.
2) assuming a single wire is a TL, can the same wire wrapped into a long solenoid still be thought of and treated as such, as the TL comprised of the straight wire above? Might the coiled TL be a tapered TL? Briefly, a tapered TL is one whose characteristic impedance (L&C) varies along the length of the TL. In such a TL, does the velocity factor (VF) also vary along the length?
3) how or does this affect the approach to the testing of such a TL?
   

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1) Yes,  but the ambient capacitive coupling has to be accounted for.
2) Yes but the axis of the helix becomes the length of the line then, because energy is transferred not only along the coiled wire, but also between coil's turns via the interturn capacitance, which makes the propagation faster than just going along the wire (OTOH inductance slowes it down). Yes it may be tapered. Yes, tapered construction will have a continuosly varying VF even if the turn spacing is kept constant, because of the varying inductance (related to the radius of the turn) and varying interturn capacitance ( related to the circumference of the turn and spacing between turns [helix pitch] ).
3) The elimination of the ambient C coupling simplifies measurements. This can be done by driving it symmetrically at its midpoint away from conductors. A tapered antenna makes it more difficult to find that midpoint for the balanced drive.
   

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Hi Itsu.

I think I now understand what you are trying to do for this step, but what exactly are you doing in this test as a way to measure wave resonance?

Questions I have for anyone:

1) can one treat a single straight wire as a transmission line (TL)? If C component and coupling is to environment, I suppose yes.
2) assuming a single wire is a TL, can the same wire wrapped into a long solenoid still be thought of and treated as such, as the TL comprised of the straight wire above? Might the coiled TL be a tapered TL? Briefly, a tapered TL is one whose characteristic impedance (L&C) varies along the length of the TL. In such a TL, does the velocity factor (VF) also vary along the length?
3) how or does this affect the approach to the testing of such a TL?


Hi Poynt,

well, i uderstood from Stalker his video / text (rk_rev2.pdf on page 58/59 and on) that he determined the wave resonance by using the pulse duty cycle, like being done in TDR measurements.

But it turns out its not an accurate way to do so according to a comment from Vasik41 in his post #239 above.

So i still am trying to find a way to confirm the LC resonance and wave resonance points are identical or very close (as per calculator) before going to the next step which is to rewind it as a Grenade coil and do the same measurements there.

Itsu
   
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