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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 76277 times)

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I would be interested in know more about the ferrite rod, as most all of them come out of radios, and work at AM to FM radio frequency.
Why are they not the type to use?
I didn't design this device but I can make an educated guess that when a ferrite cannot be quickly magnetized and remagnetized in the opposite direction than it will act as a low-pass filer when a transformer is wound on it ...and as a notch/high pass filter when a choke is wound on it.

Not all ferrites are the same. Some of them are suitable for MHz and some are only fast enough for kHz frequencies. This is easy to see with a S21 measurement* of one or couple of turns wound onto this ferrite and calibrated when there is no ferrite inside them.

* series or shunt-through.
   

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Stalker's insistence that the ferrite rod must have low-frequency characteristic is illustrated in his statement below:

Quote from this video:
Quote
23:16 - The basic requirement is that the ferrite rod is low-frequency, especially if we work with a system based on the Kacher. What I did not draw on the diagram is that this ferrite rod filter must be placed in the zone located near the reverse turns of the grenade coil (near its fat end) because the magnetic field from this part of the grande coil influences the output of the ferrite rod filter and consequently modulates the output of the Kacher, which becomes amplitude modulated. Thesee amplitude modulations and their phase relationships are extremely important for the proper operation of the device.
   

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Good find,  O0   i knew it should be near the fat part of the Grenade, but not that it is that important and what its effect is.

Itsu
   

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Once you connect secondary coils and gradient coil, tune frequencies, duty cycle and resonances you will get something like this (without Tesla coil)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_W7-WtMRnc

It's a half of success :)


Vasik,   that drawing also shows the coils winding directions (most of them), so, is it essential for a good working?
I thought i had seen the Inductor to be wound the same way as the Grenades layers 1 and 2, while here its opposite.


Can we say that "right winding direction" is CW (Clockwise) and "left winding" is CCW (Counter Clockwise)?

Itsu
   

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Itsu,

Vasik,   that drawing also shows the coils winding directions (most of them), so, is it essential for a good working?
I thought i had seen the Inductor to be wound the same way as the Grenades layers 1 and 2, while here its opposite.
Can we say that "right winding direction" is CW (Clockwise) and "left winding" is CCW (Counter Clockwise)?

Yes, "right winding direction" is CW (Clockwise) and "left winding" is CCW (Counter Clockwise)

My understanding is that relative winding direction is important.
e.g. inductors (primary coils) need to be wound in opposite direction to secondary coils.
So if you change direction of one coil, you need to change direction of other coils also.

May be it is good idea to follow suggested directions at least for first builds.

Vasik


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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Good find,  O0   i knew it should be near the fat part of the Grenade, but not that it is that important and what its effect is.

My understanding is that this refer to earlier variants of system when it was working on a TL494 glitch and not important anymore.
But it is my guess, can't say for sure.

Vasik


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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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My understanding is that relative winding direction is important.
The behavior of all multi-winding inductors is sensitive to their relative winding direction.

   

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Can we say that "right winding direction" is CW (Clockwise) and "left winding" is CCW (Counter Clockwise)?
Yes.

"П" == "right winding direction" == Clockwise (CW)
"Л" == "left winding direction" == CounterClockwise (CCW)

Note that the handwritten "Л" can look like "Λ".
   

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Good find,  O0   i knew it should be near the fat part of the Grenade, but not that it is that important and what its effect is.

Itsu

   
   Others, like Ruslan have also mentioned about placing the ferrite rod right up and next to the fat part of the grenade.
Yet, I see no difference in placing it there, at all. But, since it is easy to do, I do it any way, as I always have. Who knows.

   NickZ
   

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Buy me a beer
Stalker's insistence that the ferrite rod must have low-frequency characteristic is illustrated in his statement below:

Quote from this video:

So that the receiving antenna only picks up the correct frequency from the multiple frequencies that are within that set of coils.

@ Itsu

It is for that reason my STEAP TPU was unstable ;)

Both are very similar beasts.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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I didn't design this device but I can make an educated guess that when a ferrite cannot be quickly magnetized and remagnetized in the opposite direction than it will act as a low-pass filer when a transformer is wound on it ...and as a notch/high pass filter when a choke is wound on it.

Not all ferrites are the same. Some of them are suitable for MHz and some are only fast enough for kHz frequencies. This is easy to see with a S21 measurement* of one or couple of turns wound onto this ferrite and calibrated when there is no ferrite inside them.

* series or shunt-through.

I made a Series measurement with my VNA of the both ferrite rods (big and small) i have.

Calibrated as normal with the thru measurement 4 turns of wire without the rod, then insert the rod for the measurement.

The rods behave similar when in the circuit (10:5 turn ration) but show different characteristics, see screenshots 1 (big  13cm / 9.9mm) and screenshot 2 (small 5cm / 8mm)


Itsu

 
   

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The kinks which I marked with orange arrows appear to be caused by ferrite's material characteristics.
   

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But what rod (big or small) best meets the "low-frequency" requirement?

I see i did not match the graphs parameters, so they are hard to compare, also the marker 2 is not equal.
Will redo those measurements tomorrow.

Itsu
   

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Will redo those measurements tomorrow.
The measurement of the ferrite's choking capabilities will be simpler and yield a signal that is easier to interpret.
One or two turns should be enough.
« Last Edit: 2021-05-19, 23:34:19 by verpies »
   

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Here a "shunt-thru measurement" using 1½ turn on the small rod
   

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Here a "shunt-thru measurement" using 1½ turn on the small rod
Did you calibrate the THRU as the empty 1.5 turns ?
How does the series measurement look ?
   

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Yes,  i calibrated the THRU as the empty 1.5 turns.

Here the "series measurement" same rod:


I upgraded the firmware of the nanoVNA, but have some display problems, so went back to the older version.

Itsu
   

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It looks like that ferrite loses its permeability in the kHz region. After that, the series measurement shows a unity gain for higher frequencies meaning that the loop is behaving as if it was empty. 

Also, I expect the gain to be 0db at 0Hz (because that's how inductors work) and rapidly decrease afterwards as the inductive reactance opposes the higher and higher frequencies more and more, until the ferrite gives up due to not being able to be magnetized and demagnetized that quickly. After that it starts becoming more and more like air and the gain returns back to 0dB (unless it is conductive and Lenz takes over).

Can you magnify the kHz region in the series measurement, because it seems that the present plot shows only the behavior, which is highlighted in red above ?

P.S.
Lower frequencies necessitate longer sweep times during calibration and measurement.
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
So that the receiving antenna only picks up the correct frequency from the multiple frequencies that are within that set of coils.

@ Itsu

It is for that reason my STEAP TPU was unstable ;)

Both are very similar beasts.

Regards

Mike 8)
@ Mike  two questions
1/. Would you mind defining you abbreviations or declaring them at the start of your argument.
 As it’s difficult to follow your train of thought.


2/. How is it you assume the katcher (as an example ) could 2mhz pass as 20khz in the grenade or
even 20khz when shark and others used two tesla coils?
Sounds a bit more complicated than your suggesting, like mixing 2mhz with 2mhz 20khz
in saying that perhaps that frequency is a red herring.

Regards SIL

« Last Edit: 2021-05-20, 16:19:33 by AlienGrey »
   

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   What I have noticed about the ferrite rod is that it intensifies the spark, or streams. And it hurts more when you get zapped,
compared to the normal violet streams from the Kacher, without the rod (or bar).

   I imagine that the dead time addition to the kacher circuit, which is causing the loud white streams, does the same thing, but in a different way.
Yet Geofusion built the new dead time Kacher, and showed it working well in his video, but we never got the chance to see it working towards obtaining free energy. Nor did he ever continue with the project, up to now. That is really too bad...as I really miss him. He did pretty well even without all the test gear. Better than most everyone else that have all the proper test gear. Yet, no cigar...

   NickZ
   

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It looks like that ferrite loses its permeability in the kHz region. After that, the series measurement shows a unity gain for higher frequencies meaning that the loop is behaving as if it was empty. 

Also, I expect the gain to be 0db at 0Hz (because that's how inductors work) and rapidly decrease afterwards as the inductive reactance opposes the higher and higher frequencies more and more, until the ferrite gives up due to not being able to be magnetized and demagnetized that quickly. After that it starts becoming more and more like air and the gain returns back to 0dB (unless it is conductive and Lenz takes over).

Can you magnify the kHz region in the series measurement, because it seems that the present plot shows only the behavior, which is highlighted in red above ?

P.S.
Lower frequencies necessitate longer sweep times during calibration and measurement.

"Series measurement" with small rod 10KHz to 500KHz

I also have screenshots from sweeps from 10KHz to 10MHz, 100MHz, 500MHz and 2700MHz

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2021-05-20, 17:24:37 by Itsu »
   

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Buy me a beer
@ Mike  two questions
1/. Would you mind defining you abbreviations or declaring them at the start of your argument.
 As it’s difficult to follow your train of thought.


2/. How is it you assume the katcher (as an example ) could 2mhz pass as 20khz in the grenade or
even 20khz when shark and others used two tesla coils?
Sounds a bit more complicated than your suggesting, like mixing 2mhz with 2mhz 20khz
in saying that perhaps that frequency is a red herring.

Regards SIL

Ah, I thought you knew what is STEAP TPU, it stands for Space-Time Energy Absorption Pump Toroidal Power Unit.

The inductors and capacitors within all those coils etc will have their natural resonances, be it in kHz or MHz. If you ping part of it with a lower frequency or all of it, or individual parts, the tendency will be too resonant at its natural frequency after the point of entry.

As all coils seem to be connected apart from a primary like with a tesla coil, I really have only looked quickly, and there are so many different schematics, there will be an interreaction if there is some relation between the frequencies such as harmonics.

It gets a lot more complicated than that, and I have found that simplicity is the key to a working product, but first, where is the energy to harvest, its origins, second, in what formate is it in, third, how to create the same formate so as you can extract that energy, and fourth is the extraction principle.

If you find this not correct please delete as required, have a look at my thread and maybe you can see some similarities. STEAP does not need a ground, in fact it will not work with a ground to Earth, it works through capacitance to ground, the plasma or suedo plasma that is all around us.

As an extra point, if you take two frequencies that have a relation, and mix them, you will end up with the beat frequency "the difference between them" as well as the originals.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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"Series measurement" with small rod 10KHz to 500KHz
I also have screenshots from sweeps from 10KHz to 10MHz, 100MHz, 500MHz and 2700MHz
So it looks like the kink at the beginning of this spectrum was an artifact of the VNA and not the result of ferrite's characteristic.  I know that the VNA doesn't go down all the way down to 0Hz but there should be a shift and widening of the initial trough in this magnified view ...yet there isn't.

Do you see a S21 gain which is consistently less then 0dB in any of your serial tests at any frequency?

Does adding more sparsely spaced turns, change the magnitude of any gain dips/troughs significantly?
   

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Quote
So it looks like the kink at the beginning of this spectrum was an artifact of the VNA and not the result of ferrite's characteristic.  I know that the VNA doesn't go down all the way down to 0Hz but there should be a shift and widening of the initial trough in this magnified view ...yet there isn't.

The artifact seen with the small rod i did not see with the bigger rod somehow, but i will pay more attention to it next time.


Quote
Do you see a S21 gain which is consistently less then 0dB in any of your serial tests at any frequency?

From 10MHz and beyond there is a consistently less then 0dB level visible, see the 10KHz to 100MHz sweep in screenshot 1


 
Quote
Does adding more sparsely spaced turns, change the magnitude of any gain dips/troughs significantly?


adding another turns (2.5 turns) increases the depth of the gain level, see screenshot 2


Itsu
   

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From 10MHz and beyond there is a consistently less then 0dB level visible, see the 10KHz to 100MHz sweep in screenshot 1
In that graph the S21 gain decreases monotonically with frequency and that means that the impedance of the choke made with this ferrite increases monotonically. I do not see any increase of the S21 gain anywhere which would mean that this ferrite is giving up at these high frequencies. Thus it looks like a HF ferrite in this graph.

If it was a LF ferrite, the gain would start increasing at some frequency (impedance would decrease) like here, and beside that doubtful small kink in the kHz range and slight flattening of the gain in the first 2MHz, I just do not see anything indicating that in this graph.

P.S.
Since adding more turns does not change the shape of the curve in the horizontal scale (it only scales it vertically), you are free to add more turns until it does ...or until the inductance of these empty turns cannot be calibrated out anymore.
You may also want to plot the Z21 (S21 impedance) if it is in the menu of your vna.
   
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