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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 53559 times)

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Quote
Earlier we discussed fish-like signals, and there were doubts that they are real.
I'he been looking for good scope traces...here they are, made with analog and digital scopes.

source: https://realstrannik.com/forum/ustanovka-kulabukhova/1327-ustanovka-za-5000-evro-sergej-panov?start=80#102194
https://realstrannik.com/forum/ustanovka-kulabukhova/1327-ustanovka-za-5000-evro-sergej-panov?start=160#102391

Vasik,

thanks, i think those are real, but i do still have my doubts about the ones i have seen myself if they where real.



Anyway, i found some IR2113's, so replaced the IR2110 with one and they show the same signals / value's as in my previous (post #873).

Still at 12V the Kacher is very low on output, unable to light a NE-2 neon.

 
Itsu
   

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  Itsu:
  What does your kacher do on 24v?  At that voltage (24v) my simple kacher can output a 5 to 10mm streamer.
What is the voltage at the base of your 2SC5200 transistor? It should be up to 5v, or so, for maximum output.
Is there any visible interaction or sound (ringing) between the Kacher and induction circuit, yet? Radio Moscow, etc?

   NickZ
   
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Kasik041
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Earlier we discussed fish-like signals, and there were doubts that they are real.
I'he been looking for good scope traces...here they are, made with analog and digital scopes.

I have seen those forms countless times and it's just signal modulation.

The first time I saw it was when building the Adams motor. The magnet on the rotor induces a clean sine wave on the stator coil which is then interrupted by a transistor running at high frequency. Thus the product is a high frequency embedded within a sine or other wave form like the pictures you posted. As I continued by experiments I found that any number of discrete frequencies can be injected into the main wave form.

At which point were verging into TPU territory whereby a two phase shifted frequencies could produce a travelling wave upon a conventional sine wave. Here it's important to understand the the concept of "Energy". Energy is motion, Energy is change and whenever there is more change there is more energy present.

Regards
AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

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  Itsu:
  What does your kacher do on 24v?  At that voltage (24v) my simple kacher can output a 5 to 10mm streamer.
What is the voltage at the base of your 2SC5200 transistor? It should be up to 5v, or so, for maximum output.
Is there any visible interaction or sound (ringing) between the Kacher and induction circuit, yet? Radio Moscow, etc?

   NickZ

Hi Nick,

on 24V, not much is happening, a ne-2 neon still won't light up, no streamers seen whatsoever.

The signal on the base of the transistor looks like below screenshot, so 500mV or so and i guess that the problem.

I have not connected the "induction circuit", so no interaction there either.

I first need the kacher to work reliable before going to that next step.

Itsu

 
   

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Here i have attached a 470K resistor to the collector and feed it with 24V.

The screenshots show the base signal in red and collector signal in yellow.

First screenshot shows severall cycles and shows that the base signal itself does nut fully activate the transistor, only the peak at the end does.
Second screenshot shows it better.

Itsu
   

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The signal on the base of the transistor looks like below screenshot, so 500mV or so and i guess that the problem.
The bipolar transistor cares more about the base current than the base voltage.
The base starts drawing current significantly around +600mV and pulls the base driver down.

Go figure why the circuit driving the base gets bogged down and is not able to feed more current into the base of the BJT.
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

* I remember that someone in this thread wrote, that the role of the base driver is only to put the BJT into its linear amplifying regime periodically, so the signal from the spiral antenna gets amplified linearly (also periodically).
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 22:17:49 by verpies »
   
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Here i have attached a 470K resistor to the collector and feed it with 24V.

The screenshots show the base signal in red and collector signal in yellow.

First screenshot shows severall cycles and shows that the base signal itself does nut fully activate the transistor, only the peak at the end does.
Second screenshot shows it better.

Itsu

Itsu,

Which exact circuit diagram are you using to drive this bipolar?

Regards,
Pm
   

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Buy me a beer
Why not use the attached

Regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 20:29:08 by Centraflow »


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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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The bipolar transistor cares more about the base current than the base voltage.
The base starts drawing current significantly around +600mV and pulls the base driver down.

Go figure why the circuit driving the base gets bogged down and is not able to feed more current into the base of the BJT.
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

* I remember that someone in this thread wrote, that the role of the base driver is only to put the BJT into its linear amplifying regime periodically, so the signal from the spiral antenna gets amplified linearly (also periodically).


The base signal looks this way from the beginning, see:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3926.msg91672#msg91672  but there it was able to fully activate the transistor (12V though).

So the base current comes via Q5, SR510 (1N5819 in my case) and R17 (8.2K).

Probably the 8.2K now causes a significant voltage drop.


Quote
Also you have to decide whether you want this driver (or the spiral antenna) to feed the majority of the current into the base*.

not sure what you mean by that, do you mean that the "majority of the current into the base" should come from the  spiral antenna (meaning kacher plus antenna) via the secondary bottom (feedback) wire?


 
Itsu
   

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Itsu,

Which exact circuit diagram are you using to drive this bipolar?

Regards,
Pm

PM, 

i am using the below diagram.

Itsu
   
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PM, 

i am using the below diagram.

Itsu

Itsu,

OK, thanks.  I was hoping I could offer some help but I don't think I understand the overall operation of Stalker's circuit.  I would agree with you that the 8.2k resistor is limiting the base drive current at this point but is this really required...............?

Regards,
Pm
   

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Buy me a beer
oops

Forgot the link or did not activate, in my previous post, now rectified

Regards

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Thanks Mike,

yes, thats a proven good working MOSFET Kacher / Tesla coil circuit.

Stalker also has something like that presented in the rk_rev2.pdf from  Vasik, which could be an alternative to the transistor circuit, see below.

Itsu
   

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not sure what you mean by that, do you mean that the "majority of the current into the base" should come from the  spiral antenna (meaning kacher plus antenna) via the secondary bottom (feedback) wire?
I have not designed the damned thing thus I do not KNOW what the intent of this circuit is but one possibility is that it is a Gated Linear Amplifier. 

This would mean, that when Q5/D1/R17/R18 applies proper bias to the base of the BJT, then the BJT is transformed into a linear amplifier and the signal from the spiral antenna is linearly amplified by it.  This amplification happens periodically and only when IR2110 pin1 is high and pin7 is low.

Notice that in such mode of operation most of the current required to drive the base of the BJT does not come from the Q5/D1/R17/R18 biasing circuit.  It comes from the antenna (ksbw).
   

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Ok,  so we need confirmation that "a gated linear amplifier" is being meant here.

If that is the case, why does it not seem to work in my case?
Do i not have the "proper bias to the base of the BJT" yet?

And by "It comes from the antenna" you mean via the air, or via that bottom wire from the secondary?
   

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And by "It comes from the antenna" you mean via the air, or via that bottom wire from the secondary?
I mean the antenna which you wrote in red color on the following diagram attached to your reply #402:

   

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Do I not have the "proper bias to the base of the BJT" yet?
I do not know. 
You can find out by loading the BJT's collector with a resistor (instead of the coil) and applying a small sine signal from your FG to the base of the BJT via a capacitor.

Scope the collector, vary R17 and see at what base bias the BJT amplifies the signal from the FG the best.
In order to observe continuous (non-pulsed) amplification, you can force the tc point to +12V for this test, ...just like before
   

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Ok,   sounds like a plan, i can try that tomorrow, thanks.
   

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  Itsu:
   I have had that problem. If your transistor base is not getting the 5v emmiter base voltage, then you are not going to get the needed results.
   So, try to get the 5v on there, and it should work. Like Vasik mentioned, the higher the base voltage, the higher is the output, up to 5 volts.
   I'm glad it's not me going through all this. And, I doubt that the antenna signal has anything to do with it. 
   I did not design it either, but have spent much time behind the wheel.
   NickZ
   

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If your transistor base is not getting the 5v, then you are not going to get the needed results.
Are you getting the needed results with 5V on the base?
Do you realize the 5V VBE is the Absolute Maximum Rating of the 2SC5200 transistor ?
It is a very bad thing to operate any transistor at the limit of its Absolute Maximum Rating.

Look what happens to the base current above 0.6V:



So, try to get the 5v on there, and it should work.
What do you mean by "work" ?
If you mean pulsing the coil with the maximum possible current by saturating the BJT 24,000 times pers second, then there are much better ways of doing that, ...especially by not using a BJT at all !
i.e. using an IGBT or N-ch MOSFET instead of the BJT because they are faster, cooler, require less drive current and generally can handle larger drain currents faster.

Anyway, below is a simpler method that still uses the BJT in pulsed saturated mode:



Like Vasik mentioned, the higher the voltage, the higher is the output. Lower voltage, lower output.
I think he meant VCE, not VBE.

I doubt that the antenna signal has anything to do with it. 
You seem awfully sure about that.
Consider that using a BJT to pulse a coil instead of a IGBT or MOSFET does not make much sense.  IGBTs and MOSFETs are faster, cooler, require less drive current and generally can switch larger drain currents faster and are easier to control.
BJT makes sense only as a linear amplifier.  If this is true then it means that the Q3/Q4/Q5 circuit only works to bias and gate this linear amplifier.

If you are wrong, you are missing a very important mode of operation, namely the amplified feedback of the MHz signal from the antenna.
The antenna is supposed to have some function - doesn't it ?
« Last Edit: 2021-06-13, 23:17:54 by verpies »
   

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     Verpies:
    Yes, and no. The antenna is supposed to do something, correct. But, not what you are assuming. It is supposed to provide for a HV, HF interuptor signal. Witch is supposed to cause the inductor pulse circuit to be temporarly interupted. Which will also supposed to cause a higher output on the inductor/grenade output circuits. That is the plan, as I understand it.

    I am not trying to redesign the wheel. Just trying to make it "work" the way it's supposed to.
    Not sure if you know what is actually really needed, in this case. As you have not shown a working self runner, nor have I.

   NickZ
   

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Yes, and no.
"Yes" to what and "no" to what ?  Be precise.

The antenna is supposed to do something, correct. But, not what you are assuming.
So what is it supposed to do?
Why is the antenna connected to the base of the BJT ?  What is supposed to happen with the antenna's MHz signal there?

Why is a BJT used when IGBT or MOSFET would be better for coil pulsing only?

I am not trying to redesign the wheel. Just trying to make it "work" the way it's supposed to.
Maybe you just did redesign it with a diferent M.O. by applying an Absolute Maximum Rated voltage as VBE, because with such VBE the BJT has no chances of working as a linear amplifier.

Not sure if you know what is really needed, in this case.
I do not know what is needed.
But ...I know that if Gated Linear Amplifier is needed, then putting 5V between the base and emitter is exactly the wrong thing to do

As you have not shown a working self runner, nor have I.
True but I have postulated a viable mode of operation of this BJT and you did not.  The large R17 and D1 supports the hypothesis that Q5 is a part of a gated biasing circuit for a linear amplifier (not a saturating BJT base driver).
There really are better ways to pulse a coil than with a saturated BJT and that is a valid argument against this M.O.

I did not design it either, but have spent much time behind the wheel.
...and this is the first time I am analyzing this circuit.

Do you allow for the possibility that you have been behind the wheel for a long time on a road going in the wrong direction and that is the reason why you keep driving through a desert ?
   

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   Verpies:
   And do you allow for the possibility that you have no idea how this is supposed to work?
   

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And do you allow for the possibility that you have no idea how this is supposed to work?
Yes, I already stated that in my previous message.
This is not a social pissing contest.  I want to know how this Kacher driver works and it does not matter to me if the M.O. is my idea or yours.

Better focus on the technical arguments in the messages above.
I want to read all of your arguments for pulsing the coil by a saturated BJT switch with 5V on its base and the purpuse of the antenna's MHz signal.
   

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    Verpies:
   A social pissing contest?  That is not my intention.
  If you'd like to know how this contraption is supposed to work, I would suggest that you read all the pdfs that Vasik has been nice enough to provide.
  No need to insult me. I am only offering my opinion. That's all. Or are you really worried about burning up a cheap transistor, by providing it with the maximum allowed voltages at it's base. Really?

   NickZ
   
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