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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 76263 times)

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oho  :o

Not good?

That is 240W input while i have 200W of bulbs burning, while the MOSFETs stay relatively cool.



Anyway, i managed to match resonance for the inductor at 122KHz (29nF) and resonance at the Grenade at 24.7KHz (240nF) with a TL494 base frequenxy of 24.7KHz.

Load was 2x 100W bulbs on 160V dc with input 24V @ 7.8A, and MOSFETs stayed stable at 50°C each.


Screenshot shows:

green : current through inductor at 122Khz
blue:    current through grenade at 24.7Khz
yellow: Drain MOSFET 1  254Vpp
purple: gate MOSFET 1  at 24.7KHz and 38% duty cycle


Itsu
   

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The inductance of the "ОС-90.38ПЦ12" yoke ferrite from an old Russian 32-inch TV is 792nH/turn2 so 12 turns wound on it would have the inductance of 114µH.*

* When its two halves are well clamped together.

Not sure if 2x 12 turns will fit on 1 half as 20 turns (2x 10) barely fits on my big yoke.

So 10 turns would result in 79uH of inductance.

Itsu
   

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Not sure if 2x 12 turns will fit on 1 half as 20 turns (2x 10) barely fits on my big yoke.
How thick is the wire? ...with and without its insulation?

So 10 turns would result in 79uH of inductance.
Yes
   

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Once you connect secondary coils and gradient coil, tune frequencies, duty cycle and resonances you will get something like this (without Tesla coil)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_W7-WtMRnc

It's a half of success :)

Where do those 2 probes go to?

Itsu
   

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How thick is the wire? ...with and without its insulation?
Yes

Its the 3.4mm outer diameter / 2mm inner diameter wire.
   
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Not good?

That is 240W input while i have 200W of bulbs burning, while the MOSFETs stay relatively cool.

Itsu

Itsu,

I hate to ask because you are already doing so much, but when stating your output figures, could you give both the voltage and the current consumed by your load instead of just stating such as "X number of 100W bulbs"?

Thanks,
PW   

 
   

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Itsu,

I hate to ask because you are already doing so much, but when stating your output figures, could you give both the voltage and the current consumed by your load instead of just stating such as "X number of 100W bulbs"?

Thanks,
PW
I think if it was me asking I would be more interested if he (Itsu) is getting led activity of current draw in his earth line cable.
and also if he is getting the squashed fish wave form with HF actually captured in the fish wave form.

Regards SIL

   

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I hate to ask because you are already doing so much, but when stating your output figures, could you give both the voltage and the current consumed by your load instead of just stating such as "X number of 100W bulbs"?
Of course "X number of 100W bulbs" doesn't mean much without quantifying the luminance of these bulbs.
Do you really want him to write you the average voltage and the current when their product does not equal the power dissipated by the load?
   
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Of course "X number of 100W bulbs" doesn't mean much without quantifying the luminance of these bulbs.
Do you really want him to write you the average voltage and the current when their product does not equal the power dissipated by the load?

Why would their product not equal the power dissipated by the load?  I thought the loads (bulbs) were being driven by rectified and somewhat smoothed DC.

As Itsu tunes the device, I thought it might prove interesting to see if and where efficiency goes up or down with those adjustments.  Not knowing the amount of current the bulbs draw for a given applied voltage precludes doing so. 

As no one has provided an explanation as to how or why this device is supposed to work, that is, a "theory of operation", I thought monitoring efficiency as the device is tuned might be a useful metric.

If not, please ignore the suggestion...

PW   
   

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Why would their product not equal the power dissipated by the load?  I thought the loads (bulbs) were being driven by rectified and somewhat smoothed DC.
Because a rectifier followed by a cap draws current only at voltage peaks and avg.v * avg.i <> avg.P.

As Itsu tunes the device, I thought it might prove interesting to see if and where efficiency goes up or down with those adjustments.  Not knowing the amount of current the bulbs draw for a given applied voltage precludes doing so.
You're right. I just think he is not at that stage yet.
To gage the relative output power, it would be easier (and more accurate) to put a photovoltaic cell and a voltmeter on these incandescent bulbs.
   
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Because a rectifier followed by a cap draws current only at voltage peaks.
You're right. I just think he is not at that stage yet.
To gage the relative output power, it would be easier (and more accurate) to put a photovoltaic cell on these incandescent bulbs and a voltmeter.

Is not the output rectified and smoothed by a cap?  At the frequency involved, ripple should be easy to reduce to a minimal amount.  A simple DC current measurement, to go along with the provided DC voltage at the load, was all I was suggesting...

PW

   
   

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Not good?
That is 240W input while i have 200W of bulbs burning, while the MOSFETs stay relatively cool.
Anyway, i managed to match resonance for the inductor at 122KHz (29nF) and resonance at the Grenade at 24.7KHz (240nF) with a TL494 base frequenxy of 24.7KHz.
Load was 2x 100W bulbs on 160V dc with input 24V @ 7.8A, and MOSFETs stayed stable at 50°C each.
Screenshot shows:
green : current through inductor at 122Khz
blue:    current through grenade at 24.7Khz
yellow: Drain MOSFET 1  254Vpp
purple: gate MOSFET 1  at 24.7KHz and 38% duty cycle
Itsu

Itsu,

It is good but a little too high current.
My understanding is that optimal duty cycle is 25-30%, so if you reduce duty cycle you get lower power supply current.
You have now tuned both resonances, could you check voltages on inductor and on gradient coil ?
My understanding is that they both should be around 200v.
If you have too much voltage on gradient coil you can remove few turns from 18 turns coil, this will also reduce power supply current.

Vasik




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Where do those 2 probes go to?
Itsu

Those are inductor and gradient coil currents.

Vasik

PS Here similar Sergey's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzHwPDZAXnM
He is testing gradient coil with push pull. Signal observed on a current sensor in the gradient coil.

Sergey show first tuned gradient coil, lamp's filament is ringing in the strong magnetic field.
Big meter showing PSU current, small - load current, he says that if coil/push pull tuned then load connection does not change PSU current and frequency. Then he de-tune system and shows that PSU current became bigger and changes with load disconnection.
He also explains that tuning is very fine, depends on many parameters (ferrite properties, coils windings, wires etc)


---------------------------
The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Itsu,

I hate to ask because you are already doing so much, but when stating your output figures, could you give both the voltage and the current consumed by your load instead of just stating such as "X number of 100W bulbs"?

Thanks,
PW


PW,

no problem, its just like verpies said i am not really there yet to measure input / output, but you could be right as its another indicator for improving efficiency.

Below video is from the same situation as i left of yesterday (Post #650), but now includes an amp meter in the dc line to the bulbs.

We have 2x 100W bulbs active on 166Vdc @ 0.74A meaning 122W while input is 24.6V @ 7.9A is 194W.  (COP 0.63).
The screenshot is the voltage across the bulbs, yellow in DC coupled, purple AC coupled, the 49.5KHz ripple is twice the push pull frequency (24.7KHz).


Video here:  https://youtu.be/jTWq4cQcW50

Another question is about this fish like / modulated / dancing wave we are seeing on lots of video's.
I was never able to make one, and i wonder if its not an artifact of the scope (display).
In the above video there sometimes you see such an artifact (for me) as there is not really a modulated signal.


I will make some Grenade / inductor voltages measurements lateron to see how those look like.

Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2021-05-27, 14:45:10 by Itsu »
   

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Itsu,

It is good but a little too high current.
My understanding is that optimal duty cycle is 25-30%, so if you reduce duty cycle you get lower power supply current.
You have now tuned both resonances, could you check voltages on inductor and on gradient coil ?
My understanding is that they both should be around 200v.
If you have too much voltage on gradient coil you can remove few turns from 18 turns coil, this will also reduce power supply current.

Vasik

Vasik,

Going to 25-30% duty cycle would lower the value's, but also the sine wave like signals (voltage / current) get more distorted which i would like to prevent as we already have nasty signals all over the place, but will see what will happen.


Below voltages and current on the inductor (screenshot 1) and grenade (screenshot 2) as in the above situation.
The Grenade voltage would effectively (besides the noise) have a p2p voltage of around 300V.

So will see what happens when lowering the duty cycle.

My guess is that the inductor voltage will increase much when tuned to the base freqeuncy instead of the 5th harmonic.

   
Itsu
   

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Those are inductor and gradient coil currents.

Vasik

PS Here similar Sergey's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzHwPDZAXnM
He is testing gradient coil with push pull. Signal observed on a current sensor in the gradient coil.

Sergey show first tuned gradient coil, lamp's filament is ringing in the strong magnetic field.
Big meter showing PSU current, small - load current, he says that if coil/push pull tuned then load connection does not change PSU current and frequency. Then he de-tune system and shows that PSU current became bigger and changes with load disconnection.
He also explains that tuning is very fine, depends on many parameters (ferrite properties, coils windings, wires etc)

Vasik,   


thanks, see my video above about the fish like / dancing wave due to standing wave signals.
Do you really think they are current traces?  i mean  i see so many different people showing them, but none shows the use of current probes.

I tried severall times looking for those modulated signals, but besides these artifacts i show, i never was able to get any real modulated signals on the scope, no voltage nor current signals.

But if the tuning is very fine, i might have overlooked them, so will pay special attention to them.


Itsu
   

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Itsu,

Going to 25-30% duty cycle would lower the value's, but also the sine wave like signals (voltage / current) get more distorted which i would like to prevent as we already have nasty signals all over the place, but will see what will happen.

It might be not very nice looking signals, but I think they are what we are looking for :)
I mean we supposed to excite 1.2MHz oscillations in gradient coil.

About fish-like signals:
- in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_W7-WtMRnc author just says that scope show inductor and grenade currents,
- here https://youtu.be/XzHwPDZAXnM?t=107 Sergey didn't say it explicitly, but you can see self-made current
probe and scope connected to it in background

I think origin of these signals is HF in grenade modulated by push pull.
That why I suggested look for HF signal "signs" for fine tuning frequency.

Vasik

PS Remember what Alexeev says about duty cycle? If it to big there will be no free osculations and no OU.


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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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Do you really think they are current traces? 
I think they are voltage traces.
I did not see a current probe anywhere but a small CSR could be hiding off-frame.
   

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I think they are voltage traces.
I did not see a current probe anywhere but a small CSR could be hiding off-frame.

First shot from the video with fish like signals, see area marked with green pen

Second from video called "tuning current probes"



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The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
   

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I tried severall times looking for those modulated signals, but besides these artifacts i show, i never was able to get any real modulated signals on the scope, no voltage nor current signals.
Real amplitude modulated sinusoidal signals and aliasing artifacts can appear very similar.
They can be distinguished with common sense, though.
For example, the aliased signal will appear to decrease in frequency when the input frequency is increased ...or the aliased signal will spend a lot of time crossing zero while a zoomed input signal will not do that;
   

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First shot from the video with fish like signals, see area marked with green pen
That red probe looks like a voltage probe. It is difficult to say whether it is across a CSR.

Second from video called "tuning current probes"
That looks like a an inductive current probe. I would not trust its phase shift wrt the voltage. Also its core's hysteresis curve is superimposed on its output and its amplitude sensitivity increases with frequency.
   

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First shot from the video with fish like signals, see area marked with green pen

Second from video called "tuning current probes"

So these current transformers as seen in the red circled  area in the first picture are constructed like in the diagram?

Itsu
   

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Is not the output rectified and smoothed by a cap?  At the frequency involved, ripple should be easy to reduce to a minimal amount.  A simple DC current measurement, to go along with the provided DC voltage at the load, was all I was suggesting...

PW

 


    PW:  Remember that this type of device has two systems that need to be working together, for any overunity readings to be observed.
    There is the push pull magnetic induction circuit, and also the Kacher's (controlable HV circuit) supplying the HF signal.
Therefore, the input to output readings need both circuits working together to be able to provide for self running. That will not happen while just running the push pull circuit, and taking reading without the Kacher circuit on, as well. So, all that we'll see at this time, is just the less than overunity readings, until the Kacher is tuned and working along with the push pull circuit. And yes, the input to output reading can serve to see what kind of efficiency there is in the push pull circuit, only. But, that will change in the future with the addition of the Kacher signal, on top of the push pull signals. At least, that is the plan. I hope this helps to understand why itsu is seeing such low underunity type of readings at this time.
 
   There is a ton of information (and miss information) about this device, too much in fact. Which are trying to make an attempt at understanding and explaining the workings of this device. But, it takes much time to go through it all, and no one will understand what is really going on, until you see it actually working right. And even then, some guys may assume that it's NMR, or some scope or meters reading errors involved, instead, of a device which is harvesting and utilizing the local ambient energies. This is what we are here to find out.

   I'm almost to the point of jumping into this ball game, again. Just waiting to see itsu's full diagnostics. As well as Vasilli device, kickin ass...

   NickZ
   

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    PW:  Remember that this type of device has two systems that need to be working together, for any overunity readings to be observed.
    There is the push pull magnetic induction circuit, and also the Kacher's (controlable HV circuit) supplying the HF signal.
Therefore, the input to output readings need both circuits working together to be able to provide for self running. That will not happen while just running the push pull circuit, and taking reading without the Kacher circuit on, as well. So, all that we'll see at this time, is just the less than overunity readings, until the Kacher is tuned and working along with the push pull circuit. And yes, the input to output reading can serve to see what kind of efficiency there is in the push pull circuit, only. But, that will change in the future with the addition of the Kacher signal, on top of the push pull signals. At least, that is the plan. I hope this helps to understand why itsu is seeing such low underunity type of readings at this time.
 



   I'm almost to the point of jumping into this ball game, again. Just waiting to see itsu's full diagnostics. As well as Vasilli device, kickin ass...

   NickZ
Yes but I need to say this> I have actually seen a different but similar device working and broken down in sections and powered up in sections
the push pull and yoke and grenade has got to produce the string of eggs (fish) connected in a line called a standing wave first if you can't get
that wave form, that problem needs to be fixed, then one can move on.

regards  and sorry for the interruption.  Sil O0 O0
   
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