PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2024-12-07, 09:16:01
News: Registration with the OUR forum is by admin approval.

Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25
Author Topic: Kapanadze replication  (Read 72965 times)
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
The point I was making is that the electrical analogy of the Linde system would be positive feedback. It's possible that Kapanadze was experimenting with the Linde system as shown in the photo, and this then gave him the idea for an electrical equivalent.

That's kind of funny, I have a really good memory so when you mentioned "Linde" in the "Kapanadze" thread who followed "Tesla" one thing came to mind. Nikola Tesla's lecture, The Problem of Increasing Human Energy.
https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/problem-increasing-human-energy

In fact, Tesla all but explains the FE process no less than two times in his lecture. Once as an analogy of a vessel in the bottom of a lake where water is transformed into gasses (H2 and O2) as fast as it can enter said vessel. Then with Dr. Carl Linde's discovery of the liquefaction of air by a self-cooling process ie. a self-acting system. Both relate to the notion that thing 1 in being transformed into thing 2 can extract environmental energy from an open system. Not a closed box, that's childish, an open system.

In fact, the vessel in the bottom of a lake analogy is the first time I proved Tesla's thoughts on environmental energy were correct by calculation.

Now suppose we had a vessel 1,000 feet under a lake with a pipe from the vessel rising upwards to atmospheric conditions above the water. The vessel and pipe are full of air because the pipe is above the waterline ie. the system is empty of water. Next we install a Pelton turbine and generator running at 90% combined efficiency on the vessel so that any water pressure must do work upon entering said vessel. The electrical energy from the generator drives a high efficiency electrolyzer which would as Tesla implied supposedly "transform" the water into a different medium as gasses (H2, O2) as fast as it entered the vessel. Said gasses could then rise up though the pipe attached to the vessel which is a open to atmosphere ie. at near atmospheric conditions.

So we do the calculations and find at 1000 foot depth the pressure is too low and the system floods with water because the efficiency is too low. We keep extending the pipe and the vessel depth in the lake and lo and behold at some depth the system does balance. Why does it balance?, because the external pressure of the water doing work on the turbine/generator/electrolyzer rises quickly but since the connecting pipe full of H2 and O2 is open to atmosphere the pressure rises very slowly.

So we managed to show an open system can balance energy input/output at some point due to the water to atmospheric air pressure differential so what?. If it didn't balance we just go deeper and deeper into the lake raising the input pressure thus work/energy until it does, so what?.

What's missing from this equation?, something so obvious it boggles the mind?.

Well, if we installed two pipes on the vessel (one for the H2 and one for the O2) rising from the depth but open to atmospheric pressure we could burn the H2 and O2 at the surface to generate extra energy. So it's not a simple matter of balancing the masses of the system(water vs gasses) when the thing being transformed is an energy carrier.

In fact, Viktor Schauberger came to a similar conclusion. He talked about bodies of water like lakes full of dissolved gasses like CO2 erupting. By lowering the water pressure the dissolved gasses come out of suspension rising to the surface and able to do work.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4285878.stm
Quote
Supersonic jets, Initially, pumps begin moving the bottom water up the pipe. But as it rises, gas comes out of solution, making the water buoyant and pushing it upwards ever faster. The process becomes self-sustaining, and the pumps can be turned off.

Wow, the process became "self-sustaining", imagine that. So simple a child could understand it and based on grade school science to boot.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 81
Produce energy from the Linde apparatus. Unfortunately, this is not so simple and, rather, even impossible.
You don't take into account the amount of energy needed to run the pumps and other equipment.

Regarding the illustration of the Linde apparatus in Kapanadze’s video. I assume that this was shown for a reason.
The point is that a dynamic change in pressure in both directions leads to a dynamic change in temperature. In general, temperature is a very surprising thing. When we measure the temperature with a medical thermometer, we can give an unambiguous answer about its value. But if you ask a physicist what the temperature is at any point on a microscale, measured over a very short period of time, he will probably find it difficult to give an exact answer.

https://www.impedans.com/docs/electron-temperature/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma

Cold Plasma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOV8kliF4eo

https://youtu.be/DnSRbnvm798?t=186

Plasma Hydrogen Production:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyqWRpQbTDM


Of course, if you have a personal volcano at the bottom of the ocean that is constantly erupting, and you are able to attach a pipe to it to collect gases, then you will be able to produce energy.
This will be energy from natural sources, such as solar, hydroelectric power or wind energy.
But I assume that the cost of this venture will be much higher.
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4285878.stm
Quote
Initially, pumps begin moving the bottom water up the pipe. But as it rises, gas comes out of solution, making the water buoyant and pushing it upwards ever faster.
The process becomes self-sustaining, and the pumps can be turned off.
With the rising water reaching supersonic speeds, it spews out above the lake surface, releasing carbon dioxide harmlessly to the atmosphere.

I think this is a good example of how FE works conceptually.

To the layman it's just water in a lake and they would all drone on about how we can lift water and have it fall but there is nothing to gain. As well to the layman this process would appear as magic. Look the inventor turns the pump on, look when he turns the pump off it becomes a self-sustaining generator. They would all say it must be a violation of the conservation of energy and a perpetual motion machine. I would bet money 99% of people would falsely assume this must be a FE device if they had no prior knowledge of how it actually works.

As we can see it would be very easy for something to appear to violate the conservation of energy but we should understand this isn't true. If there is an energy gain then the energy must come from somewhere. Nothing can be created or destroyed only transformed, this is a universal law of nature.

AC







---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 474
what is the source of energy in Linde apparatus ?
   

Newbie
*

Posts: 27

.......
Here's a clue about these FE inventors which many people miss...
-Nikola Tesla- electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, inventor
-Dr. T.H.Moray- PhD in Electrical Engineering, inventor
-Clemente Figuera- Engineer, university professor, inventor

So when we start looking at the short list of the tens of thousands of FE inventors which can be found here, http://www.rexresearch.com/invnindx.htm, we find these people were not newbies, amateurs or crackpots. Most had decades of experience, impeccable credentials and were the best and brightest.

AC

Thanks AC for the well written response. I will say regarding the list of FE inventors some will argue that Tesla has no published or demonstrated a device like the others have so we can't conclusively say that he is an FE inventor. Plenty of stories, and any betting person would certainly put their money on him.

For the record:
Jose Antonio - Mechanical Engineer
Certainly not a newbie, amateur, or crackpot ..........but that may depend on who you ask. ;D
   

Newbie
*

Posts: 27
what is the source of energy in Linde apparatus ?

There is no source of energy. The Linde Condenser extracts heat energy from a vapor bringing it to its dew point. The end result is that the refrigerant (air) is condensed to a liquid and its temperature is dropped. Temperature and pressure are relative to each other except when there is a change of state (ie..conversion to steam and back) Linde is about energy transfer through extraction, and not generating energy.

-JA
   

Newbie
*

Posts: 27
I see it's upside down

This is the normal position if you want to transfer liquefied gas from a cylinder as a liquid.

https://youtu.be/BstbH5S78Cs?t=59

Correct, it does appear to be a refrigerant cylinder but most-likely an old R-407c. Regardless, I would suspect that the tank is modified because back in 1994-1995? manufacturers started adding check valves to the stems preventing them from being re-filled. The arrows on the cylinder are required because traditionally the HVAC/Refrigeration industry was dominated by three refrigerants, R-12 (Medium Temp Refrigeration & Cars), R-22 (High-Temp Refrigeration [central air]), R-502 (Low temp refrigeration). These system (mostly) charged through the vapor process because a compressor can't compress a liquid. Also, those older cylinders didn't have a Dip-Tube.

The newer refrigerants that had been developed because of the Montreal Protocol that required a reduction in Green house producing refrigerants (ie... CFC) where comprised of different types of refrigerants that had slightly different boiling points (referred to as Flash Point in the industry). So, in order to not change the delicate composition of the mixed refrigerant it was important to liquid charge a system because vapor charging creates Fractionation of the refrigerant rendering it useless in a system.   

So to bore you some more. Because there are many manufacturers that develop refrigerants Arrows needed to be printed on cylinders because some manufacturers decided to install Dip-Tubes on their tanks while others did not. To charge a system that is a refrigerant blend you need to position the cylinder upside down to get liquid ONLY if your tank doesn't have a Dip-Tube. We can see now that the arrows identify how to properly withdraw the refrigerant.

I don't think Tariel used refrigerant and I would guess that the tank is used as a oil storage tank for the system under low pressure.

-JA
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 1
I think Linde Condenser is used as an analogy of a part of Kapanadze device - not the whole energy extraction device.
And the same I think is true for Figuera device - the patents only describe the generator part but no collector (read article) of electricity. Not he whole device to produce what we look for.
Regards.
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 280
The newer refrigerants that had been developed because of the Montreal Protocol that required a reduction in Green house producing refrigerants (ie... CFC) where comprised of different types of refrigerants that had slightly different boiling points (referred to as Flash Point in the industry).
-JA
I heard,that decay ozone by freon is fake.  I've just thought,freon is heavier than air,how it could rise so high?
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 81
what is the source of energy in Linde apparatus ?

Power from AC, motors and pumps for compression and cooling.

Air conditioners also consume a lot of electricity, although they only transfer energy.
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 273
I think Linde Condenser is used as an analogy of a part of Kapanadze device - not the whole energy extraction device.
And the same I think is true for Figuera device - the patents only describe the generator part but no collector (read article) of electricity. Not he whole device to produce what we look for.
Regards.

Yes, exactly this. I didn't mean that the Kapanadze device literally used the Linde process, I meant that the Linde process is an analogy for another electrical process that operates on the same principles. What I see in the Linde process is that some of the output (cold air) is fed back to the input to produce even colder air, i.e. positive feedback or hysteresis.

This is a rather simplistic illustration, and obviously skirts over a few important details, but nevertheless if you had an electrical generator which is powered by a 12V DC supply with a current demand of 1A and output 12V 1A and via an isolation transformer fed this back into the input in parallel so that you end up with 12V 2A feeding the generator then what would happen?
   
Full Member
***

Posts: 171
Yes, exactly this. I didn't mean that the Kapanadze device literally used the Linde process, I meant that the Linde process is an analogy for another electrical process that operates on the same principles. What I see in the Linde process is that some of the output (cold air) is fed back to the input to produce even colder air, i.e. positive feedback or hysteresis.

This is a rather simplistic illustration, and obviously skirts over a few important details, but nevertheless if you had an electrical generator which is powered by a 12V DC supply with a current demand of 1A and output 12V 1A and via an isolation transformer fed this back into the input in parallel so that you end up with 12V 2A feeding the generator then what would happen?

In air conditioning, the temperature difference is our FE. Where in the coils does this happen? Everyone knows that when air conditioning is running, hot air must be removed from the room.
There must be an analogy to electricity. It is true that it is said that a Tesla coil has a hot end and a cold end, but it is probably too naive to compare it like that.
There is only one case I know of when energy from one source gives power to another source and it is called resonance. This device is a tuning fork. I tried to make an analogy with 2x tesla coils but it doesn't work the same. Kameron has two arms the same, so the Tesla coils should also be identical, right. Unfortunately, the second coil does not work as I expected. Why ? I don't know.
Of course both were connected gnd.
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 273
I think the electrical effect would be similar to how audio feedback works.

Quote
Audio feedback is a positive feedback situation that may occur when an acoustic path exists between an audio output and its audio input.

Maybe this is how the SM TPU worked also? He was an audio engineer.

Quote
You can begin to collect the current and dissipate it with no need for amplification because the signal source also becomes the feed for the power source and has the natural tendency to run with gain. It is important that you note that you can never tune too closely to the exact frequencies of power conversion because the power received by the collector will instantly destroy it. We instead must deliberately tune off the frequencies of conversion in order to make the thing properly work. Remember that it is like a furnace which feeds itself. The hotter it gets the more fuel it gives itself to burn.

I'm just connecting the dots...
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 81
In air conditioning, the temperature difference is our FE.

Unfortunately, the Carnot cycle does not allow the air conditioner to produce more energy in electrical form than it expended.
   

Sr. Member
****

Posts: 280
Yes,that's it.
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
Unfortunately, the Carnot cycle does not allow the air conditioner to produce more energy in electrical form than it expended.

Here it's important to remember that by today's standards Carnot was equivalent to a lower grade school student. He developed his primitive theories in the mid 18th century ignorant to the last 200 years of progress. There are literally ten year olds today that make Carnot look like a complete imbecile.

For example, suppose Carnot saw a black box which magically generated magnitudes more heat than we put in. Even a bright grade school student today might say that's easy and there is a nuclear reactor in the box and it gets it's energy from converting the kinetic energy of the atoms inside the box. Carnot was completely clueless as to what an atom was and equally ignorant in his understanding of what heat is so of course this would appear as magic to him.

So I think it's comical that anyone even references Carnot today given what we have learned since his time. Why not reference Grog a caveman 50,000 years ago. Grog said when he beats a small woodland creature too long his club gets warm. He said his club gets warmer in proportion to how long he beats the creature. I mean how many people completely lacking in any modern understanding would you like to use as a reference?.

AC





---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   

Newbie
*

Posts: 27
In air conditioning, the temperature difference is our FE. Where in the coils does this happen? Everyone knows that when air conditioning is running, hot air must be removed from the room.
There must be an analogy to electricity. It is true that it is said that a Tesla coil has a hot end and a cold end, but it is probably too naive to compare it like that.

That is 100% incorrect. There are two forms of energy that an air-conditioning system transfers and that is Sensible (measurable with a thermometer) and Latent (not measurable with a thermometer). Every object has a Specific Heat and that is the amount of BTU's needed to raise one pound of a substance 1 degree F. So we can calculate how much HEAT energy I need to extract to reach a specific point or how much HEAT energy I need to add to a process.

A refrigerant is something that can change state from (liquid/vapor) or (vapor/liquid) for everyday laymen there is no difference between vapor and a gas but for engineers there is very much a difference. It is during the Change of State that a tremendous amount of heat is transferred compared to when it is at a stable state.

Hot air is not removed from a room as you stated. Important to understand, especially if you are into OU devices that ENERGY IS EXTRACTED, TRANSPORTED, and REJECTED through the refrigeration process. Simplified by saying we are moving Energy from Point A to Point B. The evaporator (coil) absorbs heat energy (sensible and latent) and the Condenser (Coil) rejects sensible and latent energy through the process of condensing/evaporating. This is not an HVAC Engineering forum so I will stop there but I wanted to point out that what gets good research/posts off track is the injection of internet physics into the conversation. I am certainly not picking on you, and your NEXT STATMENT nails it.


There is only one case I know of when energy from one source gives power to another source and it is called resonance.

Yes you are 100% correct and I support this statement and this is the path we need to search. I will be starting a Nilson Barbosa thread to not pollute this one anymore. Hope to see you there.

-JA
   
Full Member
***

Posts: 171
Actually, we are not talking about air conditioning, but about the fact that Kapanadze referred to LINDE. How does this compare to electricity? You can try. What does resonance mean in such a case? where in LINDE is resonance. Is Kapanadze deceiving us all the time?

« Last Edit: 2024-07-19, 09:36:08 by maxmalone »
   
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 81
Actually, we are not talking about air conditioning, but about the fact that Kapanadze referred to LINDE. How does this compare to electricity? You can try. What does resonance mean in such a case? where in LIND is resonance. Is Kapanadze deceiving us all the time?

When compressed in a cylinder, the gas heats up, and when it expands, it cools.
Presumably he meant this:

https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3780.0
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
Actually, we are not talking about air conditioning, but about the fact that Kapanadze referred to LINDE. How does this compare to electricity? You can try. What does resonance mean in such a case? where in LINDE is resonance. Is Kapanadze deceiving us all the time?

Kapanadze referred to Linde because Tesla also referred to Linde in his lectures. Kapanadze was replicating Tesla's work.
https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/problem-increasing-human-energy

They were interested in a process Linde invented called "regenerative cooling" where the incoming gas was cooled by the gas which had already undergone cooling. What they were referring to was not resonance but regeneration which applies to electrical circuits.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 273
Yes! Regeneration or positive feedback is the point I've been trying to hammer home.

I remember there was a thread on overunity.com called 'Energy Amplification' and a poster called Tito gave out some cryptic clues.

I believe he's referring to positive feedback in the following quote where he's talking about recursion and falling ice stone.

Quote
Don't you have an idea how to translate into circuit, the rolling stone ice?
This is actually the main resipee of any free energy.

In C language programming there is what you call a recursion technique wherein you call and execute a procedure or a function of itself. but in time it is running something is being done ok.;D

ooops don't forget the recursion and cron to make a perfect timing in loop.

NOTE: This technique can lead into a masssssss destruction so be careful. a loop should be in control or else LIGHTNING WILL APPEAR INSTANTLY! AND MAKES YOU CRISPY AND DELICIOUS!!!

This technique is the rolling ice stone or falling domino and this is the ultimate amplifier of tesla that was not directly recorded but we can see the first steps in many of his patents.

i'm sorry its a snow ball i forgot the word, no matter if its a snow ball or ice stone as long as it is rolling and rolling and become bigger and bigger and many times it become avalance. the point is bigger and bigger but with full control with your hand.
   
Full Member
***

Posts: 171
There is ample evidence that Kapanadze uses feedback. We see this in the patent. However, can self-power be called feedback? is that it? In the video from 2004 (orange_coil) we see an additional transformer under the table. The same is shown in green coil. Could this be feedback? is feedback something different in this case?
The answer is NO. Because the transformer self-power circuit is only connected when Tariel wants to show that the battery can be charged from the same device.
This means that the feedbak is an element of the device. It's probably about the coils.
Tesla in Colorado Springs showed many feedback systems. Of course, others did it too, like the Hartley Oscillator, the Colpitts Oscillator.
This is all fascinating, but where is our increase in energy? When ? Oscillations in any feedback don't increase energy, right. So how to explain it?
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
Yes! Regeneration or positive feedback is the point I've been trying to hammer home.
I remember there was a thread on overunity.com called 'Energy Amplification' and a poster called Tito gave out some cryptic clues.
I believe he's referring to positive feedback in the following quote where he's talking about recursion and falling ice stone.

Yes feedback and much more. It can be cryptic but it's not difficult to analyze.

I like this line
Quote
In C language programming there is what you call a recursion technique wherein you call and execute a procedure or a function of itself. but in time it is running something is being done ok.;D
ooops don't forget the recursion and cron to make a perfect timing in loop.

Here Tito may be referring to Recursion and the work of Gabriel Kron a brilliant Electrical Engineer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kron

Recursion is a concept that involves solving a problem by breaking it down into smaller versions of the same problem. Often called the Divide and Conquer concept. The reason most people don't understand how this applies is because it requires very high level thinking. Here are some good examples of recursion, https://mathmonks.com/fibonacci-sequence#The_Sum_of_the_Fibonacci_Sequence

Think of it this way, a simple circuit cannot produce an energy gain for obvious reasons. However we could use recursion, if we broke the problem (circuit) down into smaller versions of the same problem (millions of L,R,C elements) we can see the total energy is larger than before. This is infinite element analysis which is on a completely different level than the standard electrical theory most use.

On the connection to Gabriel Kron, look at the pictures of his work below. When we think of recursion in nature we think of repeating patterns in three dimensions like tree branches or fractals. This is the connection between Recursion and Kron. This may be why most FE inventors claimed we should follow nature which always acts in three dimensions unlike a flat circuit diagram.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 33
What do you think about this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/@MTECHINDUSTRIES2022
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
What do you think about this guy?
https://www.youtube.com/@MTECHINDUSTRIES2022

A few things pop out.
1)They never show the Power in (VxA) versus Power out (VxA).
2)They are charging $400 for a joule ringer circuit kit, lol.

Think about it, how hard would it be to drop a $11 LED Digital Voltmeter Ammeter on the input and output?. Or splurge and use a $24 power meter on the input and output shown below. I mean if they are charging $400 for a joule thief then a couple cheap $25 power meters should be easy.

There is also the problem of the person claiming almost no input power while the amp meter in the video is showing one to three amps input at 12 volts, lol. They are literally bragging about the circuit running a 10w lamp as the amp meter in the background shows it's pulling 20w from the battery. The guy is completely incompetent in my opinion.

In my opinion, having evaluated and tested countless FE devices, I can safely say this is a scam.

This is a good lesson for people experimenting and basic power measurement on the input and output is everything. It's super easy and all we have to do is use a metered DC input (Volts x Amps) and convert the output to a constant DC so it can also be metered (Volts x Amps). I use input/output cap banks and an Arduino to measure and compare the input and output power. So on my OLED display I see input and output Volts, Amps, Power and the COP. It literally displays the COP of the circuit in real time so I know how I'm doing.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Pages: 1 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 [22] 23 24 25
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-12-07, 09:16:01