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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Steven Mark's TPU > Some "New" Observations
2024-04-16, 19:04:21
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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 290257 times)
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #375 on: 2017-03-23, 13:48:30 »
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For those who missed it the patent of interest is on post #386, US3085189

Here is a spreadsheet of some coil data extracted from the Thonemann et al patent.

Also some screenshots of the actual coil calculator used.

Let me know if there are any errors.

It should be easy to build and test this device to see if it stands up to some of the claims in the patent.

Lets keep this discussion of the patent on topic until Peterae can move it all to a new thread.

Thanks also to Smudge for his supportive documents.

Here are some of my thoughts reposted from OU.com

Quote
To be clear the patent presented by PIX  US3085189 Thonemann et al is very much in line with TPU research.

 It presents an explanation to some of the factors that  have been elusive regarding the SM TPU.

The biggest find within the patent in my opinion is the direct conversion of RF Current (alternating current)  into a Direct Current by propelling electrons in one direction in a elemental noble gas or mixture of gases or an electron "gas" in the metal lattice of a conductor or a semiconductor. (the collector)

And this is the very first claim of the patent!. How this is done without discrete semiconductor rectifiers eluded me and others for a very long time. If the patent is real and works as claimed, it is to me at least, a huge revelation.

It is my belief that any serious researcher of TPU devices of SM must address this first major issue.

The other issues fall into place once this is properly addressed. The very slight gyroscopic effect, the slight stiction when pushed can possibly be explained when copious numbers of electrons are accelerated to wave velocity in a circular shaped device.

Also looking at the graphs, there is a current multiplication of at least one order of magnitude.

Two methods are presented for producing the traveling wave and resultant DC current derived from RF input current, one utilizing a transmission line and the other a polyphase drive system.

So, to be sure, the patent US3085189 generously provided by PIX is very relevant to the topic of the thread.

I recommend that the capacitors be matched as closely as possible and that care is exercised in the coil construction.



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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #376 on: 2017-03-23, 14:24:44 »

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Dear ION.

Chet spoke to me via Skype yesterday evening about this patent.

I assume a Fluorescent tube could be used in one of the configurations? Being a fish keeper we have a UV steriliser in operation, I wondered if one of those might be better than the phosphor coated lighting tubes?

Just thinking out loud...... :)

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #377 on: 2017-03-23, 15:48:16 »
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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-03-23, 14:24:44
Dear ION.

Chet spoke to me via Skype yesterday evening about this patent.

I assume a Fluorescent tube could be used in one of the configurations? Being a fish keeper we have a UV steriliser in operation, I wondered if one of those might be better than the phosphor coated lighting tubes?

Just thinking out loud...... :)

Cheers Graham.

Dear Graham

Yes, that would be fine as it is probably a mercury vapor lamp. I also have one of those clear tubes. Use care to shield your eyes from the UV rays.  Only thing I'm not sure about is the gas pressure in those tubes.  According to the patent, the frequency is not critical, but gas pressure has a big effect on DC current output (Fig3).


I would advise anyone interested in this build to do the coil winding on a good stiff former such that other devices can also be slid into the tube, such as copper or iron wire "collector" or partially conductive materials, or just totally open and accelerating free electrons in the air as in Fig7

Note also that the effect is supposedly reversible i.e. running a strong DC current from a wire passed through the coil interior will excite the transmission line to a higher amplitude of oscillation. (Sec 1, Par 40-45)

When winding, bring out a small twist every 12 turns as a terminal to attach the capacitors used for loading the line.

I'm still looking into wire gauge but used 0.4mm (26 AWG) for the calculations. It may be possible to fit heavier wire.

Interestingly, in researching traveling wave tubes, I found the term "collector" refers to the electron beam target in such tubes.

Regards
ION

P.S. Caveat Emptor: Regarding this patent, until proven otherwise my signature at the bottom of the post still applies. We shall see.


« Last Edit: 2017-03-23, 16:35:32 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #378 on: 2017-03-23, 20:39:38 »

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Hi ION,

i was looking at the patent and understand from your and Grahams comments that your are primarily looking at the Fig. 5 configuration,  Right?

It says:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
‘FIG. 5 shows a sealed glass tube 9,5 cm. diameter and 60 cm. long, containing mercury vapour at about 10-3 mm. Hg pressure and provided at each end with
heavy section sealed-in electrodes one of which is an electron emitting cathode.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This 9,5 cm diameter is rather thick is it not as normal Fluorescent lamps are thinner (the , in this 9,5 means the European indication for a decimal point i think).
Also the pressure (10-3 mm Hg = 0.001mm Hg) ) seems higher as in a normal Fluorescent lamp as according to the below wiki they are at 0.8 Pa  (which is 0.006mm Hg
according to the webside below the wiki).

==========================================================================================================
http://Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp

A Fluorescent lamp tube is filled with a gas containing low pressure mercury vapor and argon, xenon, neon, or krypton.
The pressure inside the lamp is around 0.3% of atmospheric pressure.[23]

[23] Kulshreshtha, Alok K. (2009). Basic Electrical Engineering: Principles and Applications.
India: Tata McGraw-Hill Education. p. 801. ISBN 0-07-014100-2.
The partial pressure of the mercury vapor alone is about 0.8 Pa (8 millionths of atmospheric pressure), in a T12 40-watt lamp. See Kane and Sell, 2001, page 185
================================================================================================

http://Http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pressure-units-converter-d_569.html
10-3mm Hg = 0.13Pa
0.8Pa = 0.006mm Hg

=================================================================================================

Anyway, if the pressure and diameter are no real show stoppers, i am interested to give it a try.
I understand your advice is to use a (transparent?) stiff former so we can change the Fluorescent lamps for anything else (copper or iron wire "collector" or partially conductive materials).
Transparent because we would like to see the lamp light up, right?



Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2017-03-23, 21:22:15 by Itsu »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #379 on: 2017-03-23, 21:05:55 »

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Hi Itsu.

Indeed, 95 mm is nearly 4" in diameter!  The older fluorescent tubes were 25 mm 1" in diameter.

Would the higher negative pressure in the patent specification slow the progress of the electrons ? 

More musing.   ;)

Cheers Graham.


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #380 on: 2017-03-24, 00:09:36 »
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Guys, the bold 9 is the reference designator pointing to the tube.

The tube is 5 cm or 50 mm diameter as shown in my spreadsheet for the coil data.

See the attached drawing fig 5, upper left with the reference designator 9 pointing to the tube.

All bold numbers in U.S. patents are designators to components of a drawing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In section 1 paragraph 45 it is stated that a fixed conductor can be used (in place of the tube) and a current that flows unidirectionally (a DC current) in the fixed conductor will generate a frequency in the transmission line.

So, the device is reversible in it's operation, it can produce DC current in a conductor from an oscillator input to the transmission line or it can produce a high frequency in the transmission line from a DC current that is flowing in the tube or in a conductor where the tube could have been located.

Thus we do not need to have a gas tube to test the viability of the patent.

The device, if it works as advertised represents a fundamentally novel method of AC (RF) to DC conversion and vice versa. (section 1 paragraph 55 to 60).

Grum and Itsu, you have both been down quite a number of dead ends and I don't want to cheer lead another possible dead end. I just personally find this patent extremely interesting as it stands on its own and incidentally in it's possible ties to the TPU. I do intend to test it myself very soon. Please do not feel obligated to build this.
 
Hope this helps.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Itsu said:
Quote
I understand your advice is to use a (transparent?) stiff former so we can change the Fluorescent lamps for anything else (copper or iron wire "collector" or partially conductive materials).
Transparent because we would like to see the lamp light up, right?

Dear Itsu
I don't recall saying that it should be transparent, but do recall saying be careful if you use a tube and it is visible as the UV light is harmful. I said I have a clear germicidal mercury vapor tube like Grahams. Perhaps that was the source of the confusion. Also, I don't think the pressure and diameter, if a tube is used, is that big a deal, as we are just looking for proof of a concept.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Attached is updated chart with mm and inches
« Last Edit: 2017-03-24, 02:17:59 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #381 on: 2017-03-24, 10:02:09 »
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Hello!

Do we have any idea about the power level and frequency range required of the oscillator in these patents? I skimmed the patents but that patent-lingo makes my eyeballs cross and sweat comes out of my forehead, so usually I just skip to the Claims and drawings/explanations.

   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #382 on: 2017-03-24, 10:07:59 »

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ION,

thanks for the explaination, i did found it strange they used the comma.
But i have a general problem with reading patents, not only because of the language (English here), but also the style.

I was mentioning the transparent former as that would be the only way to see any light coming from the lamp.

Anyway, perhaps if you have a crude setup you can show it so that i better can visualize it.

Regards Itsu   
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #383 on: 2017-03-24, 16:01:28 »
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For those that have formed a mental block because I have associated the patent of interest with the TPU of SM, attempt to put that aside and try evaluate the patent on it's own merits as a fundamental energy conversion device.

Understand that this patent is assigned to and wholly owned by the USA as represented by the Atomic Energy Commission, and may not be used in a commercial product without permission or licensing from them. I do not know if the patent has expired or if it is current with all fees paid.

The reason the AEC would be interested is because it is means for a linear accelerator of electrons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first sentence of the patent:

This patent refers to electro-magnetic devices and processes for the transfer, transformation, or conversion of energy.

Second sentence:

This invention is based on the phenomenon that the  progressive magnetic field of a traveling wave exerts a unidirectional drag on electrons in the field.

Conversely a unidirectional motion of electrons (in the field) is able to produce or enhance a traveling wave.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With the two fundamental reciprocal operating statements understood, we can explore further in non- patent talk.

A traveling wave e.g. in the field of a transmission line produces a drag effect on electrons placed in the field. This produces a DC current flow in the device placed in the field be it a gas, a conductor, or a semiconductor.


Work is done on the electrons to accelerate them. This work causes the wave to attenuate as it travels in the transmission line, so energy must be fed into the line.

Conversely, we can put a DC current into the conductor and the flow of electrons in the conductor will produce or enhance the traveling wave.

It is unknown at this time whether there is a direct correlation between the work input and power output since typically the transmission line presents a high power factor to the source i.e. the voltage and current are typically out of phase.

We will have to determine by experiment if there is equivalence between work input and power output, since this is not a normal induction method as in a transformer, or the output would be AC.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So for construction and proof of principle what is needed is a coil of approximately twelve turns per section, 12 sections overall 144 total turns for the linear version with taps , loaded at each tap with a capacitor 0.0011uF to a ground return path.

A source to excite the transmission line of approximately 1 MHz and a means to measure and note the power input. A means to tune the oscillator frequency such that a traveling wave is produced.

A conductor, partial conductor or gas tube placed in the field of the coils.

A means to examine and measure the current produced at the ends of the conductor etc. placed within the field.

Conversely, a means of placing a DC current flow in the conductor and note if it produces or enhances the traveling wave.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To make things easier in my own understanding of patents, I put a red box around each complete thought or statement  of interest in the patent, so only that block needs to be digested in a given read.

I am attaching a marked up version in this manner. I can only restate that every paragraph of the patent is
important yet easy to understand.

The language of this patent is very clear compared to other patents I have read. Everything is spelled out, step by step.

In my last post I provided a spreadsheet excerpt of construction data from the patent, presented in both inches and millimeters.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-25, 02:49:58 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #384 on: 2017-03-24, 20:36:38 »
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I have to say that winding that coil with all those taps is not exactly a trivial exercise.

I also think that 28 uH per section is probably an overestimation of the inductance.  I'd estimate 10-15 uH or so per section, based on a measurement of 15 turns of #27 on a 1 5/8 diameter form.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-24, 21:04:20 by TinselKoala »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #385 on: 2017-03-24, 21:39:16 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-03-24, 20:36:38
I have to say that winding that coil with all those taps is not exactly a trivial exercise.

I also think that 28 uH per section is probably an overestimation of the inductance.  I'd estimate 10-15 uH or so per section, based on a measurement of 15 turns of #27 on a 1 5/8 diameter form.

Indeed 28 uH per section is only a pure division of the total inductance, a number to temporarily put in the spreadsheet, it will be way less due to mutual inductance. I originally headed that column label as "very approximate" since I had not had the chance yet to work the formula and find the actual value.  Then I changed it to just "approx". It  will probably be closer to the square root of 28.38 uH or around 5.33uH.

I'm sure 10 to 15 uH is closer to reality considering mutual inductance, in fact a rough initial stab at it showed around 5 uH for a stand alone coil, that using a maximum wire size of 3.5mm. (that figure allows some room for insulation or the max wire dia. would be 4.15 mm).

Attached is the calculation for 12 turns stand alone inductor wound on a 50mm by 50mm  section using the largest wire that would fit the length of 50mm, 3.5mm wire.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I'm going to wind the coil is a straight wind of 144 turns of the heaviest plastic insulated wire that will fit the length of 600mm. Then I will mark every 12th wind with a black marker and carefully cut away the insulation at that point and solder a tab for the capacitor.

Alternately as the coil is wound, a small twist or short hairpin can be formed at every twelfth turn to serve as a tab. This will work better for single strand formvar insulated wire.

Another method if using formvar insulated wire is to insert a small "U" shaped piece of fish paper at every twelfth turn. This will serve as a shield to avoid nicking the adjacent wires when the formvar is scraped off.

It would be nice to use Litz, but it is a  bear to work with.

From the patent, the frequency is not critical. If it is in the neighborhood of a megahertz or so it should be ok.

Still looking for the right coil form, the rest I have.
« Last Edit: 2017-03-25, 02:54:16 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #386 on: 2017-03-25, 11:39:37 »
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Those methods sound good to me and make perfect sense. It might be a little difficult to solder to the stripped areas of the plastic-insulated coil wire but that's probably not a show-stopper.

Your calculator's 5uH figure now seems a bit low to me. I'd like to use your calculator to calculate a value based on my own parameters, to see how closely it comes to my inductance meter measurement. Could you post a link to the calculator you are using? I've searched a bit and found many other calculators but not that particular one. The one I did try gave a result that was fairly close to what my meter reads for a "mockup" of one section, but it didn't include all the parameters that your calculator uses.

Smudge mentioned something earlier about using a ferromagnetic wire for the straight inner conductor in which the electron acceleration is supposed to happen. Do you think soft iron wire would be good here? Are you going to use copper or iron for this inner conductor? Should this inner conductor be any particular diameter, single or multistrand or something special like Litz construction or coax?

   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #387 on: 2017-03-25, 15:23:29 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-03-25, 11:39:37
Those methods sound good to me and make perfect sense. It might be a little difficult to solder to the stripped areas of the plastic-insulated coil wire but that's probably not a show-stopper.

Your calculator's 5uH figure now seems a bit low to me. I'd like to use your calculator to calculate a value based on my own parameters, to see how closely it comes to my inductance meter measurement. Could you post a link to the calculator you are using? I've searched a bit and found many other calculators but not that particular one. The one I did try gave a result that was fairly close to what my meter reads for a "mockup" of one section, but it didn't include all the parameters that your calculator uses.

Smudge mentioned something earlier about using a ferromagnetic wire for the straight inner conductor in which the electron acceleration is supposed to happen. Do you think soft iron wire would be good here? Are you going to use copper or iron for this inner conductor? Should this inner conductor be any particular diameter, single or multistrand or something special like Litz construction or coax?

Dear TK

Here is the link to the electron bunker coil calculator:

http://electronbunker.ca/eb/InductanceCalc.html

Another good one from hamwaves here:

http://hamwaves.com/antennas/inductance.html

Wen calculating inductance from the bunker site, I used their coil former template and so added the 0.4 mm to the length and diameter for a section. This would vary if larger dia. wire were used e.g. 4.0mm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding what will be placed into the linear device, I have not yet decided, but will leave that to experiment. First thing I would do is just fire up the line and try to get some idea of the power factor vs frequency with nothing inserted, as a baseline, then experiment with different items placed in the coil such as iron wire, copper wire, corroded or oxidized copper wire, semi conductors such as carbon rod, conductive rubber etc and of course a gas tube.

It will be interesting to see if a DC current can be obtained across any of the above mentioned.

I imagine the solid metals will rapidly heat up due to eddy losses, unless the eddy losses are lessened when some acceleration is achieved and/or when the current is allowed to flow into a load.

Typically a gas tube will ionize in  a high RF field as you know from bringing neons close to HF coils.
As you also know, neons can be used to find the nodes along a line in a non-contact manner so it might be interesting to position neons above each section on a movable stick of wood.

It will also be interesting to note if a DC current flow in a wire placed in the coil enhances the existing traveling wave or can even initiate a standing wave per the patent's claimed reversibility of the conversion effect.

I have a major plumbing problem, a leak in a pipe inside a wall that will delay my progress on this, but gathering parts as time permits. Mundane stuff always getting in the way of progress.

Conjecture:

As a side note it is interesting that some of Kapanadze and others devices use a conductor passed through an odd arrangement of long coils. There was also a video experiment posted by Stephan Hartmann of OU.com where an associate had a large copper bus bar in the center of a coil that developed quite a high current (if memory is correct it was DC). Don't know if it is still available, but it was interesting.

Best of luck if you decide to build.

Regards
ION


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #388 on: 2017-03-26, 06:19:05 »
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Thanks!

The "electron bunker" calculator agrees with my meter measurement of my mockup coil very closely (calc 15.06 uH, meter 16 uH) and I expect my meter is not completely accurate at the bottom end of its most sensitive range. So that's all good.

I've got domestic problems in my walls too -- RATS!  But at least they are dry rats.  Killed a male the size of a small cat this evening, using a trap baited with a stale marshmallow.
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #389 on: 2017-03-26, 16:33:45 »
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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-03-26, 06:19:05
Thanks!

The "electron bunker" calculator agrees with my meter measurement of my mockup coil very closely (calc 15.06 uH, meter 16 uH) and I expect my meter is not completely accurate at the bottom end of its most sensitive range. So that's all good.

I've got domestic problems in my walls too -- RATS!  But at least they are dry rats.  Killed a male the size of a small cat this evening, using a trap baited with a stale marshmallow.

Although an exact build would eliminate some variables, I believe any good high quality (low loss) loaded transmission line operating around 1 MHz will work.

I think it is more important to understand what happens in a shorted transmission line, how the patterns set up in the line due to reflections can accelerate the electron beam or conductor electrons.

You would think the spacing between sections of the line should be according the expected velocity at given points along the line. The patent does not mention this.

Is it possible the pattern set up in the line already accounts for this and the accelerating nodes are spaced appropriately? Food for more thought.

Other things to think about are the differences between a circular versus linear version. In a circular device, electrons are constantly recirculated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rats in the walls can be a daunting problem. Hope you can rid them. Maybe some piezo's operating at 20kHz or so.

Now I've got to go fix a car that won't start. Progress delayed but I did wind a long coil.

Cheers
« Last Edit: 2017-03-26, 18:15:10 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #390 on: 2017-03-31, 16:02:18 »
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I made this a couple of days ago, forgot to post it here.   ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTPfRMe1Fs0

This is just stimulating the line at the left end with a low-voltage signal from my ElCheepo DDS sweep FG, and monitoring the line with the scope probe across the 6th section.
Sweeping from 1kHz to 1MHz. Blue is stimulus from FG, yellow is line response.

Still to come is a high-energy driver stage and also looking at a set of various center conductor types. No, as yet I have made no measurements of a center conductor.
But I have a roll of nice rusty soft-iron wire out on the porch, if it hasn't "walked off" somewhere.

As you can see I adopted a slightly different technique for winding the coil, I used tiny eyescrews as terminals for each individual section. Also am using
20 turns per section and 0.0022 uF poly film caps. So I'm not sure how "approximately" this can be considered to be.

But it is kind of relaxing or hypnotic to watch the stimulus and response varying, phase shifting, and achieving VRSWR in this simple system. The music track is just something
I found on the YouTube audio library that I thought was a good fit to the display.

   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #391 on: 2017-03-31, 16:38:43 »
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Nice work TK, enjoyed the video. Using the tiny screws as connection points is a good idea. BTW, what gauge wire did you use?

Lets hope the patent lives up to some of it's claims. Study the other patent I posted by LLewellyn. It makes some important points.

Partzman has been hard at work on this and may have some interesting things to post when he gets the time.

There is much to be learned about transmission lines used in non-conventional ways where the energy is purposely built up and stored in the line. It can be very different than a normal LC resonator as we shall see.

Looks like I'm the lagger here, but do have about 20 coils wound on separate pvc forms with 18 gauge wire. I decided to use separate forms so I can later put them in a circle.

In discussion, we now think that the coils were more like good quality high Q RF coils that are wound on clear plastic strips with a good deal of spacing between turns, after all 12 turns over nearly 2 inches really
lowers the parasitic capacitance compared to a close wound coil.

These sites were interesting

http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/HiQCoil.htm

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/formulae/q-quality-factor/basics-tutorial.php

http://www.arrl.org/files/file/QEX_Next_Issue/Jan-Feb_2012/QEX_1_12_Audet.pdf

http://lists.contesting.com/_amps/2002-11/msg00394.html

My intention at some point is to use a 12 CircleLine(TM) fluorescent tube. I know it is not a complete circular vacuum tube, but hoping if I get some acceleration going that I can complete the electron path between the filaments with a jumper or metal bridge.

I'll post some pics later.

« Last Edit: 2017-03-31, 18:29:27 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #392 on: 2017-03-31, 19:41:13 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala
...
I've got domestic problems in my walls too -- RATS!  But at least they are dry rats.  Killed a male the size of a small cat this evening, using a trap baited with a stale marshmallow.

Rats make wonderful pets!  Very easy to tame and
they're very clean if given food and water.  Quite
intelligent too. ;)

In some Asian cultures Rats are a delicacy :'(

Those big-uns could make quite a meal. :(



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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #393 on: 2017-03-31, 21:43:47 »
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Quote from: muDped on 2017-03-31, 19:41:13
Rats make wonderful pets!  Very easy to tame and
they're very clean if given food and water.  Quite
intelligent too. ;)

In some Asian cultures Rats are a delicacy :'(

Those big-uns could make quite a meal. :(

Hi muDped, good to hear from you !

I will keep that in mind, should there be a shortage of food.

Just south of here a few hundred miles there are some really large rodents, but they are not very intelligent.

muDped, being an old Navy Radioman, I'm sure you might have some helpful hints on coil Q etc.

or possibly some other ideas on these transmission lines.

 As these lines are not meant for the optimum conveyance of power from point A to point B but rather are being used as reflective energy storage devices.

Smudge is welcome to chime in here too, as I'm sure he could also tell us some interesting things about transmission lines.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-01, 04:55:55 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #394 on: 2017-03-31, 22:50:41 »
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All,

Here is the Tline setup I will be using for testing.  The pix below shows the line with an F15 T8 lamp and ballast in place.  The line has 13 positions with 24 turns ea in 24gs pvc insulated wound on a 1.32" dia pvc tube for a total L=304uH.  The caps are 4700pf polypro for a total C=.0611ufd.  This calculates to Td = 4.31us (actual = 4us) and Z = 71 ohms.  This is not similar to the patent so will offer a different view and possible results from other close replications.

I've included scope pix of the line in loaded, unloaded, and shorted operating conditions.  The shorted requires current limiting which in this case is 500ma so the pulse amplitude from the Ixys driver is reduced as a result.

CH1(yel) is the pulse input to the Tline from the Ixys driver, CH2(blu) is the voltage across a 1 ohm 1% Caddock non-inductive resistor monitoring the Tline current, and CH3(pnk) is the voltage across the output of the line.

CH4(grn) is a current probe measurement on a 60x15ga litz wire collector running thru the center of the Tline.

pm 
   
img  muDped
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #395 on: 2017-04-01, 02:30:36 »

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Yes, the patent referenced by ION is quite interesting.

The initial discussion of the application and what
it does brings to mind the Traveling Wave Tube.  But
since the transmission line structure is "shorted"
in order to "resonate" there is more going on.

The Energy Storage type circuits I'm most familiar
with which resemble Transmission Lines in their
construct are the Pulse Forming Networks used
in high powered Radar Systems.  An entirely different
sort of application with DC in and Pulse Out but
very, very powerful.

High Voltage is fascinating stuff.  I've long
wanted to put together a Marx Generator.


The second ship I was aboard (63-64) was a
small Gasoline Tanker (AOG-8) homeported
in Subic Bay, the Philippines.  It was like taking
a trip into the past.  We had several Radio Transmitters
of the 30s-40s vintage with Motor Generator High
Voltage power supplies (3000 VDC),  Low Voltage
Motor Generators to provide filament power (12 VDC)
to the vacuum tubes, and Resonant Line connections to
the various Antennae.  Our power system was
110 VDC with limited 60 Hz 120 VAC in the Radio
Shack for several newer receivers and our On-Line
Cryptographic Receiver for decoding the Fleet
Broadcast.  The AC power was provided by a
Motor Generator located one deck below.  Really
exciting duty with some very capable Radiomen
who were very good at CW communications.

Today's Navy no longer has Radiomen;  now
the fellas (and some gals) in what once was the
Radio Shack are known as Mass Communications
Specialists.

I liked it better back in the Old Days. ;)




---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #396 on: 2017-04-01, 22:58:00 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Many thanks to all that took a look at the patent and also to partzman and TK for building a unit to test.

Special hats off to partzman who I know has been working long and hard on this and has performed numerous tests .

Also thanks to muDped for the interesting links he posted, and stories of the good old days....wish I could have had those experiences.

Attached are a few pic's.

 Still short a few caps, need  to search a bit more for them. I have the low voltage caps but wanted to use high voltage mica caps because I want to push some power into this thing and see if I can get the gas tube to ionize on it's own without a bias. That may take a few watts of input power and I suspect the voltage on the caps will get a bit high possibly > 1kV. With the tube ionized on it's own, I can then go about seeing if there is any DC produced on the end terminals.

I used a terminal lug approach so that I can also try reversing the phase of every other coil to see what effect that has.

I can also arrange these coils in a circle.

This next thought may not apply to this particular version but from what I have recently read about electron accelerators in some old patents, a single valve pulse generator using a variable saturable core oscillator produces a fast pulse in the loop coils, and it is at the zero crossing of the magnetic field of these coils that a source of electrons to be accelerated is injected into the beam. The timing is important else the electrons don't make it into the circulating beam and are rejected.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Itsu
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #397 on: 2017-04-02, 19:51:39 »

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Nice builds TK, PM and ION  O0

I tried to stay in line with the Fig. 5 setup as close as possible, so i have 144 turns of 0.4mm magnet wire.
Each 12 turns will have a 1nF mica film cap (on order) attached to the return line.

The coil measures 87uH and 3.4 Ohm, the former is a PVC tube with 50mm OD.

It is slightly longer as planned (65cm)   :o , so the Fluorescent lamp will be inside the former.

Not sure with what to drive it (OSC) as it needs some heavy power i understand, perhaps a kacher like device?


Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #398 on: 2017-04-03, 12:32:01 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-02, 19:51:39
Not sure with what to drive it (OSC) as it needs some heavy power i understand, perhaps a kacher like device?
How about the EL2009 amp box?
Also, since you have 2 channels you can drive it as a 90º phased coil array (without caps), which is also described in this patent, AFAIR
   
img  Itsu
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #399 on: 2017-04-03, 13:02:23 »

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Yes, i was thinking of using the EL2009 amp box, but the patent says:

One end of the line is short-circuited and the other end is fed with RF. power from a 1 mega
cycle oscillator 'OSC capable of delivering 3—4 kw.

The "1 megacycle" will be no problem, but the 3—4 kw is, but i can start with that.


I will look into that "90º phased coil array (without caps)" part, as skimming the patent again does not show it


Itsu
   
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