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Author Topic: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench  (Read 558643 times)
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #600 on: 2021-05-24, 09:04:16 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-23, 21:37:55
Vasik,
i did just that, "simultaneous winding with two wires of equal length."
I will have to see if i can make them equal induction wise.
Itsu

Itsu,

that is strange, why would they have different inductance ?
BTW have you checked that delays (RV1,5 C19,20) equal for both push pull legs ?

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #601 on: 2021-05-24, 09:44:33 »

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Hi Vasik,

There always will be some difference between the both primaries i guess, only by how much is still acceptable.
I will examen the primaries to see if i made some mistake somewhere or have one side against/over the gap (the both primaries just fit the one half of the yoke.

Below sreenshots are the TL494 outputs (yellow and blue) together with their delayed (gate) signals (purple and green) :


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #602 on: 2021-05-24, 10:01:21 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-05-23, 21:51:15
Itsu,

Still continues to make no sense to me.

Before tearing into the coil, I would replace the yoke windings with a pair of resistors again and confirm all is as it should be. 

The 48vdc at the drain makes no sense to me, nor does the purple drain being pulled low when both the blue and yellow gate are low. 

What happened to your current probe?

PW
   

PW, 

i put some 470K resistors at the primaries position and measured the gate and drain signals (green and purple gates, blue and yellow drains).

Using still the single 24V PS, and this shows as expected.


I somehow managed to short out the current probe insides to a life wire which i was measuring, and it blew up the Hall Effect device so no DC currents are being recorded, just AC.


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #603 on: 2021-05-24, 10:23:30 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 09:44:33
Below sreenshots are the TL494 outputs (yellow and blue) together with their delayed (gate) signals (purple and green)

Itsu,

Delays look different even with this small scale.
This could potentially cause that core magnetized in one direction more than into other
and create dis-balance you observing.
Please re-check the delays.

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #604 on: 2021-05-24, 10:51:09 »

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Vasik,

i agree, they look different, but my thoughts were that the duty cycle (all around 33%) would be the major factor for heating up.

But i have adjusted the delays to be almost the same (13.8°), see screenshot yellow and blue the TL494 signal, green and purple the delayed (gate) signals.

Still the one MOSFET gets hotter then the other (26°C v 41°C in 5 minutes, only primaries connected).

So i will examen the primaries for obvious unbalans.


Thanks,   Itsu 
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #605 on: 2021-05-24, 11:17:46 »
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Itsu,

I agree, it is good idea to check primary windings also.
If you have current probe broken, you can make one yourself from a small ferrite core and resistor.
You wind 20 turns and adjust sensitivity with resistor. You can calibrate it with signal source and some known resistor.

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #606 on: 2021-05-24, 11:26:24 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 10:01:21
I somehow managed to short out the current probe insides to a life wire which i was measuring, and it blew up the Hall Effect device so no DC currents are being recorded, just AC.
Were you able to identify the part number of the Hall sensor inside?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #607 on: 2021-05-24, 11:28:32 »

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Quote from: Vasik041 on 2021-05-24, 11:17:46
If you have current probe broken, you can make one yourself from a small ferrite core and resistor.
You wind 20 turns and adjust sensitivity with resistor. You can calibrate it with signal source and some known resistor.
His half-broken current probe is superior to the core+resistor probe.
Both don't sense DC.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #608 on: 2021-05-24, 11:30:23 »

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Quote from: picowatt on 2021-05-23, 22:22:11
Is the shorter period of oscillations that occur during both gate off times the beginning of clamp diode turn off?
Yes and/or the body diode of the opposite mosfet.

The two screenshots below illustrate how the drain waveforms appear without* the body diodes in that other split-primary push-pull experiment:

  • The 1st scopeshot shows how the drain voltage waveforms (yellow & purple) appear with the body diodes present.
  • The 2nd scopeshot shows how the drain voltage waveforms (yellow & purple) appear with the body diodes "absent"*.

( in both cases the drain waveforms are clamped to ±70V by bilateral TVS diodes )
( the flux in the core never becomes discontinuous because of the high duty cycle )
( the gate waveforms are blue and green )


P.S.
Even on the 1st scopeshot, you can see that the drain voltage is 1 pixel lower when these body diodes conduct, if you look very closely.  That's the -1.2V forward voltage of these diodes at low vertical magnification.  At less V/div and very high acquisition averaging, this could be seen even more clearly.



* achieved by connecting two MOSFETs in series, so their body diodes are mutually opposing.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #609 on: 2021-05-24, 11:48:25 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-24, 11:26:24
Were you able to identify the part number of the Hall sensor inside?

Yes,  its this part:

I have one on order.


Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #610 on: 2021-05-24, 11:54:24 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 11:48:25
Yes,  its this part:
I have one on order.
Looks expensive  :(
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #611 on: 2021-05-24, 20:42:22 »

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I rearranged the yoke wiring and was able to get the both primaries fairly equal, as both measure now around 42uH.
I also shortend the yoke leads to the pcb which cleaned up the signals.

With only the 5 turn secondary connected, i have an input of 24V @ 700mA.

Temperature on the MOSFETs are stable around 58 and 55°C.

When i connect the other secondary (18 turns going to grenade with parallel 300nF caps and the output circuit), the input current increases to about 8A @ 24V!

Swapping this secondary coil leads makes no difference.


Screenshot shows the MOSFET 1 current (green), drain signal (yellow), gate signal (purple) and the MOSFET 2 drain signal (blue).

Video here: https://youtu.be/DSy4wE09H-U

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #612 on: 2021-05-24, 21:01:58 »

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Here i have changed the current probe position to the 5 turn secondary circuit and tuned for max current (green) being resonance at 111KHz which is the 5th harmonic of the TL494 base frequency at 22.46KHz.

As i aim for a base frequency of 24KHz i have to lower the Inductor series cap (now 27nF) a bit to get to a resonance frequency of 120Khz in the inductor.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #613 on: 2021-05-24, 21:05:15 »
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Itsu,

Judging by your drain scope traces, both mosfets are in avalanche for a short duration which can add considerable dissipation.

Regards,
Pm
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #614 on: 2021-05-24, 21:10:12 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2021-05-24, 21:05:15
Judging by your drain scope traces, both mosfets are in avalanche for a short duration which can add considerable dissipation.
Do you mean, right after the gate signal goes low?
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #615 on: 2021-05-24, 21:38:49 »

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I also connected up the 2nd secondary (18 turns across the primaries) which goes to the grenade and 300nF parallel caps and the output circuit with a 40W / 220V bulb.

The input went up to almost 8A @ 24V and we have ~290V DC on the bulb.

Temperature of the MOSFETs increase quickly, but might need some tuning done (to 24KHz).

Screenshot shows the current in the 2nd secondary parallel circuit (green), the MOSFET 1 gate signal (purple) and drain signal (yellow), and the MOSFET 2 drain signal (blue).

Video here:  https://youtu.be/WIraRkX2Bc8

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #616 on: 2021-05-24, 21:54:28 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 20:42:22
I rearranged the yoke wiring and was able to get the both primaries fairly equal, as both measure now around 42uH.
I also shortend the yoke leads to the pcb which cleaned up the signals.

With only the 5 turn secondary connected, i have an input of 24V @ 700mA.

Temperature on the MOSFETs are stable around 58 and 55°C.

When i connect the other secondary (18 turns going to grenade with parallel 300nF caps and the output circuit), the input current increases to about 8A @ 24V!

Swapping this secondary coil leads makes no difference.


Screenshot shows the MOSFET 1 current (green), drain signal (yellow), gate signal (purple) and the MOSFET 2 drain signal (blue).

Video here: https://youtu.be/DSy4wE09H-U

Itsu


    You did not mention the temps of the Fets at almost 200w input, without any load on. That's what I need to know. Sorry to ask...
    One of your fet's output is still a little higher than the other. What are the temps of your fets at resonance of the push pull with the 18t secondary coil to the grenade connected up and drawing 8 amps? But, please don't blow your fets up on my account. I know that can happen, especially without any fans on. Keep your finger on those fets....We're going in...

   NickZ
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #617 on: 2021-05-24, 21:59:34 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-24, 21:10:12
Right after the gate signal goes low?

Yes, from the collapsing field of each primary winding.  Need to lower the supply voltage or use mosfet with higher BVdss rating.

Pm
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #618 on: 2021-05-24, 22:01:24 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 21:38:49
I also connected up the 2nd secondary (18 turns across the primaries) which goes to the grenade and 300nF parallel caps and the output circuit with a 40W / 220V bulb.

The input went up to almost 8A @ 24V and we have ~290V DC on the bulb.

Temperature of the MOSFETs increase quickly, but might need some tuning done (to 24KHz).

Screenshot shows the current in the 2nd secondary parallel circuit (green), the MOSFET 1 gate signal (purple) and drain signal (yellow), and the MOSFET 2 drain signal (blue).

Video here:  https://youtu.be/WIraRkX2Bc8

Itsu

Itsu, these traces show a considerable avalanche in each mosfet.  This is going to create considerable dissipation and heat.

Edit: If you take a pix of the drain voltage and drain current, the energy dissipated per each mosfet can be calculated and then the overall power can be calculated at the operating frequency.

Pm
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #619 on: 2021-05-24, 22:15:56 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2021-05-24, 21:59:34
Need to lower the supply voltage or use mosfet with higher BVdss rating.
...or increase the load on the secondaries so the magnetic flux energy, which is stored in the core, has other places to go rather than breaking down the D-S junction of the MOSFET, after the gate goes low.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #620 on: 2021-05-24, 22:32:09 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2021-05-24, 22:15:56
...or increase the load on the secondaries so the magnetic flux energy, which is stored in the core, has other places to go rather than breaking down the D-S junction of the MOSFET, after the gate goes low.

Yes, this will work if the coupling is tight between the secondary and primaries.  However, my guess is that the coupling with the yolk core is not that great so even with the secondary shorted, there would probably still be evidence of avalanche.

I'm not that familiar with the overall operation so I'll ask, is the output of the squarewave of the yolk transformer converted to sine somewhere before being used?

Pm
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #621 on: 2021-05-24, 23:14:37 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2021-05-24, 22:32:09
Yes, this will work if the coupling is tight between the secondary and primaries.  However, my guess is that the coupling with the yolk core is not that great so even with the secondary shorted,
You can estimate the coupling coefficient by the fact that the inductance of his primary is 42μH when the secondaries are open and 4μH when the secondaries are shorted.

Quote from: partzman on 2021-05-24, 22:32:09
there would probably still be evidence of avalanche.
It would be nice to have a reliable indicator of the dangerous D-S voltages. MOSFETs are not cheap and they can often fail only partially, leading to malfunctions which are difficult to debug.

An overvoltage detector/protector can be made by putting a TVS diode across the drain & source ( a TVS diode with a breakdown voltage rating close to MOSFET's BVdss ) and surrounding it with a small toroidal core and an LED like on the diagram below*.



This overvoltage detector/protector does not affect the operation of the circuit when the current never flows through the TVS and the LED never lights up. 
It is just a warning light ...and lighting it up should be avoided during normal operation.


* a bridge rectifier made out of 4 small (but fast) diodes, followed by a cap in parallel (e.g 10μF) and placed between the winding and the LED, would make this indicator much more sensitive and easier to see.
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #622 on: 2021-05-25, 05:45:59 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2021-05-24, 21:38:49
I also connected up the 2nd secondary (18 turns across the primaries) which goes to the grenade and 300nF parallel caps and the output circuit with a 40W / 220V bulb.

The input went up to almost 8A @ 24V and we have ~290V DC on the bulb.

Temperature of the MOSFETs increase quickly, but might need some tuning done (to 24KHz).

Screenshot shows the current in the 2nd secondary parallel circuit (green), the MOSFET 1 gate signal (purple) and drain signal (yellow), and the MOSFET 2 drain signal (blue).

Video here:  https://youtu.be/WIraRkX2Bc8

Itsu

Itsu,

What is voltage on inductor ?
My understanding is that it should be around 200v
and same should be output of gradient coil.
If voltage too high you might need remove some turns from yoke secondary windings.

I would suggest tuning inductor and gradient coil separately.
When you come close to 24.4Khz you should see HF harmonics, this will help you with precise tuning (look for highest HF signal).

Vasik
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #623 on: 2021-05-25, 08:23:11 »

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Quote from: NickZ on 2021-05-24, 21:54:28

    You did not mention the temps of the Fets at almost 200w input, without any load on. That's what I need to know. Sorry to ask...
    One of your fet's output is still a little higher than the other. What are the temps of your fets at resonance of the push pull with the 18t secondary coil to the grenade connected up and drawing 8 amps? But, please don't blow your fets up on my account. I know that can happen, especially without any fans on. Keep your finger on those fets....We're going in...

   NickZ

Nick,

those MOSFETs get hot quickly then, like within half a minute they are 70°C and rising, but look at the drain signals, they avalange? now twice/cycle.
Need to tune (frequency / resonance / duty cycle / number of turns) to see if i can improve.

A perfect match between the MOSFETs will be very hard to get i think.

Itsu
   
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Re: Dally, Shark & Ruslan workbench « Reply #624 on: 2021-05-25, 08:27:34 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2021-05-24, 22:01:24
Itsu, these traces show a considerable avalanche in each mosfet.  This is going to create considerable dissipation and heat.

Edit: If you take a pix of the drain voltage and drain current, the energy dissipated per each mosfet can be calculated and then the overall power can be calculated at the operating frequency.

Pm

PM, 

i understand this "avalancing" is kind of needed in this circuit, there is a PDF/video on it which i need to follow to get it right (frequency/Duty cycle).

But it should be below the max parameters of the used MOSFETs.


Itsu
   
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